I read a post on Dii.net to the effect that if a barb WW into a Thorns Pally, and the barb does enough damage to kill himself, the Pally will still survive, even though normally the WW would kill him. I am not certain of this. I tested WW vs Thorns with a friend using his level 47 polearm barb. His WW does a max of 660 damage. Counting the 50% reduction for pvp, he would slay himself on me, and I would still consistently have an average of 250-330 hps remaining out of my 1,230 hps after the attack. I suspect that his damage is far too low to provide an accurate test of the situation. Can anyone provide with some experience on this issue vs level 80+ barbs, who have WW your thorns Pally and you survived? I am planning my next Pally build. Thanks alot!!

O@

This is why many barbs use a plain, non magical lance/exec/whatever for dueling paladins and necros.

-Omega

Some nice insights from you all thanks! The Charge vs. LA is still a difficult issue. I am aware of the LA while Charging timing trick, but a good pally will not charge from half a screen away, rather from an intermediate distance. Some important facts Blinkbat's and fastest run boots. Charge is pretty damn fast with those, so the barb has to be fast on the trigger, still doable for the great dueler, but maybe less so for the novice, or even on an off-night for the pro. Charge is even faster with a decent level Vigor, so a hit is doable. However using Charge/Vigor requires some fancy aura flashing, since Vigor will be used instead of Thorns. The barb may retaliate in a most deadly fashion. Flashing to Thorns in mid charge is possible, but the pally's reaction will have to be fast, so either execute double charge or pray for the best:-) In any event, your opinions were valued. I like the knowledge about matchups, since the Pal is my fav at the moment, given his party-friendly penchant and wide variety of skills!!! Cheers

O@

The reference point for me is: a 2700 baba vs 1400 pala with 25+ thorns: baba dies, pala left with one hit pt (from the overkill). The more life the baba/pala have, the more difficult it is for the other. It's a very balanced fight, with perhaps a slight advantage to the pala. A 15%+ life leech on the baba doesn't change this scenario much. (At least it didn't help my baba much )

Normally, with a baba, I try to land a few leap attacks to soften the pala while avoiding his smites/charges. If I manage to hit drop his life to 1000- without losing many hits myself, I can then WW him no prob.

Morale for baba: if you can't beat thorns the hard way (WW), try LA to soften.

Morale for pala: put all pts you have into vit (And I do mean ALL!!)

I have a relativly easy time dispatching barbs with my paladin. Not a single point in thorns. He is actually a frostadin, with a massive pvp build. I made him to destroy amazons, which he does VERY well, but he can effectivly control barbs as well. After being holy frozen, any barb is essentily my paladin's play thing. My standard dueling rig is a steelclash duel boots, 129 gias rune sword, fastest crown, blinkbats form, death's guard, cleglaws pinchers, eye and some misc rare rings. Holy freeze assure even a blinbats wearing max speed barb is eating my dust. It is a simply game to bleed them outta mana. I don't go aggressive with them till I feel they are running low on juice. 75% block with holy shield, I will typically survive 2/3 ww clips (they never hit me dead on), and those barbs runn outta juice pretty fast. I have 20 points in fist for annoyance factor. I piss them off with it, its a way to slowly whittle them down if I have to. Basically, with holy freeze, they are so slow (lvl 22 hf), they cannot really hope to initiate an attack against me. I have to come at them, so, i can feign charges, pull back, eventually ww is gonna be dry. If I think the barb's being cutsie, (after killing them two or three times, they will get more patient, and try to save a ww or two, so you gotta progressivly do more "fakeout" charges, charge in, then charge away, 90 sharp, they will miss you and bleed the mana ball down some.) Patience will win. Eventually, the barb will get impatient and commit himself to something you can kill him over. Once he is out of mana, shift click charges and even zeal (once you get them running, you can easily get in front of them and shift click zeal as they run buy, exposing them to 3 attacks), and you'll have them. HS will save you from a one or 2 "despiration ww's" that they regen mana back from whil you are whitteling hem down. Fist of heavens, does paltry damage, but in a drawn out fight like this, it can eventually harrasse or annoy the barb into something stupid. As for leap attack? easily evaded by a shift click charge in another direction to dodge. Thorns is not the only pally option for killing barbs. S/S take longer due to block, but the result is always the same- it's mental, make them waist their limited attacks. They will have no ability to assault you, only counter. 20 min duels between me and barbs are not uncommon, but unless they use pots, run back to town, or use a shrine, they always die. I am a patient person.... I have a lvl 70 paladin with a 20 fist of heavans, I sure as hell better be .

Seeing as everyone else does it...

SilverDeth Lvl 85 Zookeeper
SilverDeth-II Lvl 70 Passivess
SilverDeth-III Lvl 70 Frostadin
SilverDeth-IV Lvl 70 S\S Barb
SilverDeth-V Lvl 70 Multizon
SilverDeth-VI Lvl 64 Artillery Nec
SilversMule Lvl 80 Item Lawnmower