I have a little baby paladin who I plan to raise to be a 5-man tank (normal and heroic). I have pretty much no aspirations to going on raids with him, though I suppose if he did go he could at least offtank something. So with that in mind I've been considering talents and what build to go with. Several options seemed interesting to me so I thought I'd go over them. First I'll go over the talents individually that I think could be useful to consider and then I'll go into specific builds.

Protection Talents

Redoubt: Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 6%/12%/18%/24%/30%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks.
Pretty clearly a tanking talent. I've heard it can be less useful when you have good gear and holy shield, but I figure its still better than imp devotion aura.

Toughness: Increases your armor value from items by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10%.
Pretty standard tanking talent and good to climb the tree with anyway.

Precision: Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%
I hear +hit is hard to come by on tanking gear so this could be good. I figure a pally tank gets most of his threat from holy damage though so its not as good as it seems. Still, seals proc on hits that connect and so +hit does help them and so is still good.

Anticipation: Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
A solid tanking talent. The issue is that you can probably cap your +defense with items and so the points could be put to better use in other places. If you are having trouble capping your +defense though, this can help.

Shield Specialization: Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10%/20%/30%.
Paladins block alot and so a shield absorbing more should be a good thing.

Improved Righteous Fury: While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 2%/4/%6% and increases the amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16%/33%/50%.
Less damage + more threat. Pretty much a perfect talent for a tank.

Blessing of Kings: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time
I figure this isn't really going to be used that much, but if you don't need anticipation then one might as well pick this up.

Blessing of Sanctuary: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, reducing damage dealt from all sources by up to 80 for 5 min. In addition, when the target blocks a melee attack the attacker will take 46 Holy damage. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
I figure this is the pally tanking blessing. It reduces damage some while adding damage and threat.

Reckoning: Gives you a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack.
More swings = more seal procs = more damage and threat

Spell Warding: All spell damage taken is reduced by 4%.
Spells cut through armor and this helps stop the pain some.

Sacred Duty: Increases your total Stamina by 3%/6%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield spell by 60 sec and reduces the attack speed penalty by 50%/100%.
I figure the extra stamina is the main reason to take this.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
Usually I would consider this a good talent, but I'm thinking that a tanking paladin probably uses a low damage weapon that has +spell damage on it. If thats the case then increasing the melee damage may not be as useful as it would normally be.

Holy Shield: Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec and deals 155 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Damage caused by Holy Shield causes 35% additional threat. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.
key paladin tanking ability. More blocks, more damage, more threat.

Improved Holy Shield: Increases damage caused by your Holy Shield by 10%/20% and increases the number of charges of your Holy Shield by 2/4.
More damage=more threat and more charges means it can be kept up easier.

Ardent Defender: When you have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 6%/12%/18%/24%/30%.
Could potentially save you if the healers get behind. Its a "things are going wrong" ability though which means that it could also not matter at all. It all depends on if you end up dead without it or not.

Weapon Expertise: Increases your weapon skill with all weapons by 2/4/6/8/10.
Everybody seems to say that weapon skill sucks right now. I don't know if I should believe them or not. Especially when the choice may be between points in this and points in 1H Spec with a low dps weapon. This might add at least some +hit which I've already discusses as being useful for seals.

Avenger's Shield: 1 sec cast/30 sec cooldown/30 yard range
Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 494 to 602 Holy damage, Dazing them and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets. Lasts 6 sec.
With the 1 second cast this can't really be used in combat. Its a range pulling option that establishes initial multi-target threat though.

Holy Talents

Improved Seal of Righteousness: Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness and Judgement of Righteousness by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
This seal is probably used alot by a tanking pally and so increasing its damage is a good thing. Its tier 2 though and so requires taking a talent below it. The talents below are less useful, but not bad

Retribution Talents

Benediction: Reduces the Mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
A tanking pally probably judges and casts seals alot. Less mana cost means the pally can hold threat longer.

Improved Judgement: Decreases the cooldown of your Judgement spell by 1/2 sec.
Judging more often means more threat = a good thing. It does use more mana though.

Improved Seal of the Crusader: Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader by 5%/10%/15%.
Crusader is probably a good initial judge seal for the holy damage increase. So improving it might not be a bad deal.

Deflection: Increases your Parry chance by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
It would help you push crushing blows off the table. Less important in 5-mans, but not a bad thing to do anyway.

Vindication: Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's Strength and Agility by 5%/10%/15% for 10 sec.
I don't know how often it procs and so its hard to judge how useful it is. It also is single target and so not as useful for multi-mob tanking. It is still a way of limiting incoming damage though and could be especially useful on boss fights where you are mainly focusing on one mob.

Eye for an Eye:All spell criticals against you cause 15%/30% of the damage taken to the caster as well. The damage caused by Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health.
It could be helpful for holding ranged caster adds. They shoot you, they get damaged returned, you gain threat on them.

Improved Retribution Aura: Increases the damage done by your Retribution Aura by 25%/50%.
In most cases I'm thinking devotion aura won't really be needed and so retribution could be the main aura. The damage from it should help hold any adds that are hitting you. So increasing that damage may not be a bad thing.

Sanctity Aura:
Increases Holy damage done by party members within 30 yards by 10%. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.
I'm curious if this could be better than retribution aura. it would increase the damage done by consecrate on multi-mob pulls and it would increase your single target threat by increasing the damage of your seals and judgements. I've not done the math though to know in what cases it would be better and in what cases it would be worse. It could be somewhere you use retribution on trash and sanctity on bosses. I just don't know, but its interesting anyway.

Improved Sanctity Aura: The amount of damage caused by targets affected by Sanctity Aura is increased by 1%/2%.
2% to all damage the party does isn't a bad thing. It increases your damage/threat as well as your party's damage.

Sanctified Judgement: Gives your Judgement spell a 33%/66%/100% chance to return 50% of the mana cost of the judged seal.
I'm assuming a pally tanks seals and judges alot and so getting mana back would increase how long he could keep doing such. The question is: do fights last long enough to warrent it?



So I figure those are the interesting tanking talents that I'll be using in the builds below. Lets move right along to those builds. I see two basic paths to choose from here: 41 in protection and 33 in Protection.

41 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2
Ardent Defender Rank 5
Weapon Expertise Rank 2
Avenger's Shield Rank 1

There is a choice of 2 points in Expertise, 1H Spec, or some other talent, but otherwise it seems pretty straight forward to me. The other trees are questions though.

10/41/10: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

10 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2

Thats one way a paladin could go. It assumes you judge Crusader on a mob then cast Righteousness and judge/recast as cooldowns allow. Both seals get improved in damage and cost and judgement gets its cooldown lowered.

0/41/20: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...002200000000000

20 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Deflection Rank 3
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Vindication Rank 3
Eye for an Eye Rank 2
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2

This path assumes the same basic attack pattern, but doesn't bother to improve Righteousness. Instead it improves Retribution aura, grabs Vindication and Eye for an Eye, and picks up a little parry as well.

Which of these builds is better though? It seems like the first one would do better on single targets with improved Righteousness, but the second would do better on multi-target fights with Improved Retribution Aura and Eye for an Eye. The second one does gain some single target help from Eye for an Eye and Vindication though. So maybe the second one is more well rounded. If the first one can hold the extra mobs though, then I'm not sure it needs the added multi-target help and so might be better. I really don't know which route is better.

33 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2

You lose Ardent Defender and Avenger's Shield mainly. I'm not sold on Ardent Defender being required. Sure its nice to have and can maybe save the day sometimes, but I'd like to think that one wouldn't get in those positions in the first place. Things do go wrong though. The loss of Avenger's Shield makes pulling tougher and initial threat more of an issue, but I'm a blood elf and so mana tap helps some with pulling and hopefully initial threat will be fine anyway. So then the other trees become:

10/33/18: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...001200000000000

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

18 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Deflection Rank 2
Vindication Rank 3
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2
Eye for an Eye Rank 1

So VS the split tree 41 build you lose Ardent Defender and Avenger's Shield, but gain Vindication, Imp Retribution Aura, some parry, and 1 rank of Eye for an Eye. I'm not sure if this one is worth it or not. It greatly depends on how useful the two talents that are being given up are and I've not had access to them yet to really have a clue.

33/28: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...002200120300000

28 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Deflection Rank 5
Vindication Rank 3
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2
Eye for an Eye Rank 2
Sanctity Aura Rank 1
Improved Sanctity Aura Rank 2
Sanctified Judgement Rank 3

This one I find especially interesting. Thats not to say I think its better (I have no clue), but just that some of the options are interesting. It gains Sanctity Aura and its improvement while maintaining Improved Retribution Aura. So a pally could switch back and forth depending on the makeup of the pull. This could be entirely pointless though as one of the auras could just beat the other in all situations. I don't know enough to judge that though. The build also gains Sanctified Judgement which is the big bonus of only going 33 in protection. Since I'm assuming that a pally tank would be judging everytime the cooldown is up, getting mana back from each judge could extent how long the pally can maintain threat by quite a bit. Is it necessary though? I really don't know. It could be that a pally can last long enough anyway and so 41 in prot is better.

Anyway, those are the builds I'm toying with. Like I said at the start, my pally is only a baby. This means my actual paladin experience is very limited and thus I'm working completely theoretically. So some advice from people with actually experience would be a great help as would just general thoughts and comments.

I suppose I should also say that I am aware that there is a holy/protection build as well. I have a 70 priest already and thus I'm deliberately choosing not to give the pally any healing option. Basically I have a dps class and a healing class so the paladin is going to be my tanking class. Its all he is aiming for.

I'm only going to point out stuff that I don't agree on.



Threat matters for heroics. The SoR proc damage matters for your threat. This talent matters. +Hit is one of the fastest ways to up threat. It's not as valuable for a paladin but it is valuable.



Being crushed matters in heroics, especially tanking them in only crafted/5 man and heroic gear since you won't have raid gear. Geting to the point where you can have 102.6% Block + dodge + parry + miss without any raid gear is possible, but not easy. 20 defense is 3.2% total avoidance (0.8% block, 0.8% dodge, 0.8% parry, 0.8% miss). Those points stay very valuable for a paladin. For a warrior who can just hit shield block and be uncrushable for the next 2 hits, not so much. But if you don't want to rely on redoubt this talent is still valuable.



I think you get less value out of this than out of anticipation. It's not a bad talent but seen anticipation.



2 talent points to turn a 5000 damage hit into a 4800 damage hit. Not horrible but not great either.



You missed the change. increases all damage. That means your seal damage, your judgement damage, and I think even your consecrate damage. It used to be just the melee damage and it used to be 10%. It was skippable then. Even if it just did the weapon damage and the damage from a seal proc that is more aggro, but I think it does more than that. I recall my consecrate getting bigger when I got that talent.


Retribution Talents



Most bosses are immune to it.



Mobs can't crit spells so pointless for PvE.


Hmm if I do anymore quoting it won't work. And I should be in bed so comments on the builds themselves later.

Now that you meantion it, I do recall reading that a few days ago. For some reason it slipped my mind again heh.



Didn't realize that. So yeah...pointless talent.

I'll have to look at build options again with this info.

Instead of shield block, a protection pally will have holy shield. It increases block rate by 30%. Its basically a slightly lower shield block rate, but a longer duration and more charges(especially with imp holy shield). So that 102.6% becomes 72.6% which is easier to maintain. Now I don't really know how hard it is to hit that point with crafter/blue gear, but it doesn't sound like you were considering holy shield and you said 102.6 was possible. Therefore I'm going to figure that 72.6 is not only possible, but easier to get. If this is true then anticipation goes back to not being as important. If its not then it becomes more important. So you'll have to let me know if you were figuring holy shield in or not and if it affects your view.

This is also why redoubt is questionable btw. If a pally can be uncrushable with just holy shield then redoubt doesn't add anything to the mix. It does help with multiple mobs since charges get ate faster. It also can help cover if you get silenced and so can't refresh holy shield right away. So its still not bad to have, but questionable.

So assuming that anticipation isn't necessary because of holy shield, but that one handed spec is necessary the main change to the 41 point protection tree is that the 5 points in ardent defender move there. You then basically have 4 points to divide between ardent defender, weapon expertise, and spell warding. I'm inclined to say 2 in spell warding and 2 in weapon expertise, but I could see arguements for 4 in ardent defender as well.

Vindication and Eye for an Eye being useless gets rid of the 0/41/20 build though. Thats for sure no longer worth it. So I figure the choice for 41 in protection is one of 10 in holy or 5 in deflection and 5 in ardent defender. Deflection will help gearing (especially with my not including of anticipation), but if you don't need it then it becomes a pretty clear choice of 10 in holy in my mind. So...I'm thinking the 10/41/10 build is the best for 41 protection. That would be: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000


The 33 point builds get hurt alot though. They basically have to become 36 point protection builds so as to include a maxed one handed spec (the three extra points+2 from spell warding). This kills the idea of picking up Sanctified Judgement and with the worthlessness of Vindication and Eye for an Eye also kills the split build.

So it seems to me that the 10/41/10 build meantioned above is the only one that survives. That is:

41 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2
One Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5
Weapon Expertise Rank 2
Avenger's Shield Rank 1

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

10 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2

The only debate remaining seems to be one of if anticipation is required or not. Its not too hard to fit in though. Take the point out of kings, take the 2 out of spell warding, and take the two out of weapon expertise and put them in anticipation. I'm still not sold on it being necessary though.

Damn Swirly you posted a lot of info here. Im too tired right now to respond to everything so I'll just throw a quick comment on your last points.

Anticipation is Defense SKILL, not Defense rating. That 5 points equates to 48 points of Defense Rating on your gear. IMO if you want to tank you will get this talent. After you reach uncrushable it will give you more room to stack Stamina, which will eventually be your weakest link as a Paladin tank. At level 70 you will have approximately 1500 less HP's than an equal level Warrior. The more Stamina you stack, the more valuable Sacred Duty becomes.

Block Rating and Defense Rating are the two cheapest ways to reach uncrushable. Plus approximately 19 Defense Rating is 1% pure avoidance. On a side note, being uncrushable isnt actually that important for 5 mans being the highest lvl mobs (bosses only) are 72. Stamina, AC and Block Value (not Block Rating) will eventually be your most important goal, after a certain level of avoidance and Defense Rating (490 for uncrittable).

Blessing of Kings will become, for most fights, your best tanking Blessing. Blessing of Sanctuary for leveling is one of the best talents you can get. But the 80 damage reduction is deducted before damage reducing items/talents/skills(IE Armor). So you arent reducing the final damage you take by a straight 80 damage. On hard hitting mobs, IE heroics 2-4k damage, BoS wont improve your survivability as much as BoK will. BoS really shines on AOE pulls, fast low damage hitters and/or elemental damage (like groups of Imps).

I do agree Spell Warding is not a necessity. But for a serious tank(MT) it is more damage mitigation and therefore falls into one of the most important aspects of being a tank.

I would suggest you experiment with different talent builds as you are leveling. A lot of this discussion wont really apply much till you are 70, geared and tanking the harder content. I know I respeced at least 2 million times while I was leveling. Even with all the theorycrafting and discussions I have read, I had to try some things on my own to determine what worked best for me.

Anyway, feel free to as me anything in game, if you want to know my experiences.

Edit: This is a basic "default" 41pt talent selection Paladin talents.

Personally I have a hard time living without Reckoning, but for more consistent damage/threat, 1hd Weapon Specialization wins out. The 2 points in Reckoning and 5 points in 1hd Spec are just fillers and could be used whereever you wanted (Max Reckoning, Precision, Spell Ward, etc.)

I was counting on holy shield for that 102.6%. Warriors need to get there as well, but they get 75% from shield block. They only need 27.6% from other stuff, as you say paladins need 72.6% (actually 67.6% because you'll get the heroic badges to make holy shield get you 5% more). This is not an easy number to get to without raid gear, it can be done, but it's hard, especially if you want any +spell damage at all.

And yeah I fully aggre on redoubt. You don't plan on it being up. If you did, then you can get to uncrushable almost as easily as a warrior as you only need to get 15% more avoidance than they do. But you can't, so you now need 45% more than a warrior since holy shield is 30%, shield block is 75%




Oh duh. I knew I was saying something really wrong when i was typing that up at 5 or 6 am my time and still hadn't slept yet. You are right, crushing doesn't matter. Slap the GG.

Um, I've tanked several heroics, and never saw a 73 or ?? boss in one, so, why worry about crush? Now, in raids, yes. Crush is important.

Did I just miss seeing some +3/?? stuff in a heroic somewhere? A 72 isn't going to crush a 70.

Here are some comments that I have come up with:


This was the determination I made, as well. A large portion of paladin threat comes from spells (consecration, exorcism, judgments) or reflecting damage when attacked (holy shield, retribution aura). The extra hit would be nice, but is certainly not required. And, as you note, +hit is not really available on tanking gear.


I actually use Kings all of the time. It is THE primier blessing for many classes (physical damage dealers, especially). In addition, I usually use this as my tanking blessing for the simple reason that paladin tanks tend to have a much lower life total than other tanks and the extra 10% stamina can make a big difference. Now that my stamina gear has gotten a bit better, however, I have pondered trying out Blessing of Sanctuary a bit more often for tanking. The damage reduction is ok (remember, it is subtracted BEFORE armor is accounted for, so you really only get 1/2 the effect, in reality) and the threat would be a small added bonus.


This is also the only thing that will really help out your DPS for soloing ability. When this is up, pally DPS is ok. If it isn't up, it is terrible.


This applies to all damage, so it is a 5% threat increase across the board as well as a bonus to soloing ability. I think it is definitely worth taking.


This is a nice abliity and I actually think it is better in 5-mans than in raids (since mobs tend to hit less hard, so they don't skip past it as easily). That said, this is completely worthless if you don't drop below 35% health, so I have tended to skimp on this for my current paladin build.


Yeah, it really does suck. There are lots of good pally talents in the bottom of the Protection tree, so this talent doesn't get used very much.


Personally, I love this talent. It's at its best in 5-man instances where you can use it to pull and lock down aggro instantly. One note is that, if you're not taking much damage, you can also use it during combat for added threat.


I actually opted for the talent that prevents spell push-back over this one. This isn't a bad talent, but being able to heal without push-back is amazing for a Protection/Holy hybrid build.

I would also note that Illumination is still one of the best talents out there for pally healing. If you can manage to go for a build like 20/41/0, it can change a poor healing build into a pretty good healing build.


This talent is a nice-to-have, in my opinion. While it is true that you are judging a lot while tanking, you get mana back for taking damage and you could also just judge wisdom on a mob if you have mana problems. If you are going for the 5% parry talent to help with becoming uncrushable, this is a nice one to pick up. Otherwise, I would tend to leave it alone.


It's ok, but there are better talents out there. I also tend to judge wisdom rather than Crusader, so I wouldn't see a whole lot of benefit out of this.

----------

As far as builds go, I am a fan of either this 20/41/0 build or this 0/49/12 build. The first is a good tanking build with enough healing to do an ok job at that role, as well. The second build picks up basically all great tanking talents from the Protection tree and fleshes it out with extra mitigation and efficiency from the Retribution tree. Some points could float in the builds (especially the precision + reduced judgment cooldown talents in the second build), but those are examples of what I would be interested in playing.

I only got my Paladin to 51 but I tended to go with Blessing of Sanctuary over Kings. I can see how that reverses for heroic and raid mobs but for the levelling instances the mitigation is nice and the threat and damage is nicer still. Shield Spike + Sanctuary + Holy Sheild on every block adds up fast. I did 40% of my groups entire damage output tanking ZF. Solo levelling by AOE was reasonably fast but dull.

In hindsight, I did tend to use Sanctuary for low level instances, as well. However, once I started reaching the Outlands instances I started swapping over to Kings to provide extra cushion for the healers. I guess the other thing about Kings is that it scales with your gear, so the better geared you are, the more effect it can potentially have.

So my paladin is 41 now and I've started leaning towards the 0/49/12 build. I've noticed that I change what seals/judgements I use quite a bit and so it seems a waste to improve one when I may not use it all the time. I'm also noticing that I don't judge everytime its available so that talent is suspect, but there isn't really anything better. The only one to consider would be the walk speed talent since paladins have no intercept type skill. I may need to judge more when actually tanking instead of question though so that choice will have to wait even longer. Just thought I should update though that I am now thinking the 0/49/12 is the way to go.

As far as I know, any mob that is higher level than you has a chance to crush. 5% per level.

There are no mobs higher than 72 in heroics.

As far as I know, it takes a +3 or ?? to crush. I've never seen a crush from a 72 vs a 70, or a 62 vs a 60 in my raid-tanking time.

Well defense skill does matter a bit for crushing blows, but if you are capped for you level (i.e at 350 for L70 or 345 for L69) the mob does need to be +3. The L72 Hellfire Warders in Magtheridon's Lair can crush as well but folks think they don't have a base weapon skill, that they actually have a bit higher.

Anyway a good summary of crushing blows can be found Here the rest of their hosted articles are pretty solid as well.


But like I mentioned earlier in the thread I was way too tired and wasn't thinking when I was talking about crushing blows.

Right. I had forgotten the maximized Defense thing.

Basically, crush works with weapon skill versus Defense skill.

So any mob with X weapon skill more than your (less than maximized) Defense skill has an X% chance of crushing, and only mobs that are 3 levels or more can crush players with maximized Defense.

Alright so I'm aiming for 0/49/12 and my sights have moved some towards figuring out what gear to aim for. I could make a new thread to discuss that, but I kind of like all the info being in one thread. The lounge has a history of threads getting sidetracked anyway so who am I to go against tradition.

I found a list of tanking gear and went through and did a quick pick of what jumped out at me as choices I might make. So I'm looking for thoughts on the choices I made, suggestions for alternatives if better options exist, etc etc. I'm mainly aiming for normal 5-man drops currently. Profession items that are easily attainable can be considered as well. Raid drops and heroic drops aren't being considered yet. The end goal will be 5-man normal and heroic tanking so uncrushable isn't really a factor though having that ability never hurts in case I do feel like raiding sometime (doubtful, but you never know).

Helm: Helm of the Righteous
Shoulder: Spaulders of the Righteous
Chest: Jade-Skull Breastplate
Wrist: Sha'tari Wrought Armguards
Hands: Gauntlets of the Chosen
Waist: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard
Legs: Legplates of the Righteous
Feet: Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves
Shield: Platinum Shield of the Valorous
Weapon: Continuum Blade

Again, this is a very early list and so I'm sure there are some things I have wrong in it. So some advice would be much appreciated. Also of note is that the gloves require scryers rep and so which rep path is better also needs to be decided. I've not ran the numbers on these items either so I have no clue how they stand in regard to crit immune, uncrushable, and anything else that needs calculated.

edit: had a heroic drop for wrists, swapped it our for a non-heroic option

Cut-and-paste from my post elsewhere:

Head:

BOE Crafted Epic:
Oathkeeper's Helm: +40 sta, +22 int, +15 def, +26 damage/healing, +9 mana/5, red/yellow/blue sockets
- rare world drop plans

Instance Drop:
Helm of the Righteous: +30 sta, +20 int, +21 def, +23 damage/healing, +6 mana/5, yellow/meta
- normal Mechanar, Pathaleon the Calculator

Quest Reward:
X-52 Technician's Helm: +16 str, +36 sta, +16 int, +16 defense, +36 damage/heali
ng, +6 mana/5
- Netherstorm, Back to the Chief

Shoulders:

Instance Drop:
Spaulders of the Righteous: +22 sta, +22 int, +20 def, +15 damage/healing, red/blue
- normal Botanica, Laj

Quest Reward:
Kaylaan's Spaulders: +27 sta, +30 damage/healing, +18 defense
- Netherstorm, Aldor No More (Aldor only)

Chest:

Instance Drop:
Breastplate of the Righteous: +30 sta, +28 int, +20 defense, +23 damage/healing, red/yellow/blue
- normal Steamvaults, Warlord Kalithresh

Quest Reward:
Lost Chestplate of the Reverent: +22 sta, +24 int, +21 defense, +29 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Wanted: Annihilator Servo!

Belt:

BOE Crafted Epic:
Belt of the Guardian: +48 sta, +13 int, +19 defense, +21 damage/healing, +33 block value
- SSC/The Eye plan, requires Nether Vortexes

Quest Reward:
Lightwarden's Girdle: +30 sta, +14 int, +23 defense, +28 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Deathblow to the Legion

Quest Reward:
Starcaller's Plated Belt: +30 sta, +16 int, +12 defense, +23 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Arconus the Insatiable

Bracers:

Heroic Instance Drop:
Bracers of Dignity: +30 sta, +12 int, +21 defense, +19 damage/healing
- Heroic Arcatraz, Harbinger Skyriss

Quest Reward:
Thadell's Bracers: +21 sta, +12 int, +9 defense, +16 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, When the Cows Come Home

Gloves:

Instance Drop:
Gauntlets of the Righteous: +22 sta, +20 int, +19 defense, +21 damage/healing, +7 mana/5
- normal Shattered Halls, Warchief Kargath Bladefist

Quest Reward:
Spiritualist's Gauntlets: +27 sta, +17 defense, +20 damage/healing, +5 mana/5
- Netherstorm, A Fate Worse Than Death

Legs:

Instance Drop:
Legplates of the Righteous: +27 sta, +24 int, +26 defense, +28 damage/healing, +10 mana/5
- normal Black Morass, Aeonus

Kirin'Var Defender's Chausses: +27 sta, +18 int, +19 defense, +30 damage/healing, +7 mana/5
- Netherstorm, Sigil of Krasus (Kirin'Var)

Boots:

BOP Crafted Epic: (BOE recipe)
Boots of the Protector: +48 sta, +22 int, +26 defense, +17 shield block rating, +27 damage/healing
- recipe drops in SSC/TK and is tradable

Heroic Instance Drop:
Boots of the Righteous Path: +34 sta, +26 int, +23 defense, +26 damage/healing
- heroic Shattered Halls, Warchief Kargath Bladefist, or heroic Arcatraz, Harbinger Skyriss

Heroic Instance Drop:
Boots of Righteous Fortitude: +37 sta, +14 int, +19 defense, +29 damage/healing
- heroic Sethekk Hall, Anzu

Starcaller's Plated Stompers: +21 sta, +14 int, +13 defense, +16 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Escape from the Staging Grounds

Using Quest Rewards Only:

Total available from quest rewards alone:
+16 str, +241 sta, +114 int, +153 defense, +228 damage/healing, 18 mana/5 sec

Using Quest + Normal Instance Drops:

(essentially most of the Righteous set)

Total available from quest rewards + normal instance drops:
+203 sta, +154 int, +151 defense, +170 damage/healing, 23 mana/5 sec
2x red, 2x yellow, 2x blue, meta

Assuming blues are +12 stamina, yellows are enduring talasites (+4 def, +6 stamina), reds are veiled noble topazes (+4 spell hit, +5 damage), and the meta is Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (18 sta, 5% stun resist), and adding in socket bonuses:

Total with gems:
+257 sta, +158 int, +162 defense, +180 damage/healing, 25 mana/5 sec, 5% stun resist

Conclusion:

This is interesting, because it shows you can get a paladin to crit-immune state just on quest rewards and a little help from one slot, leaving you rings, trinkets, necklace, and weapon/shield free for spell damage and such, and you get a decent amount of +damage to help you hold aggro, instead of useless (to a tanking paladin) strength.

You could probably replace the talasites with different yellow gems, once you get an Aldor Exalted shoulder enchant.

From my tanking lately with Kam. The more tanking I do in normal 5 mans the more stam and avoidance I take off for more hit, crit and str for aggro.

The people you are going to be tanking for will be experienced folks on alts or a new player on a main who probably has a bit a raid gear already and is looking to help out or fill in holes. I have to remind myself to not waste rage on shield block because I don't need the mit and the 10 rage is better spent on generating aggro (and revenge is pretty much still lit up all the time). I'm a SB spammer from my old raid tanking days and from the days where when I'm soloing that I never want to use a bandage or eat food (in which case sitting in def and spamming shield block means I take pretty much zero damage though I only do like 170 DPS).

So get crit immune and then stack spell damage. Of course the issues of avoiding too much damage hurting aggro generation that exist for a warrior don't exist for a paladin. So maybe it's not as bad.

Don't rule out the felsteel crafted stuff either. They have very high levels of defense rating and armor to up your mit and keep you at the def needed for crit immune (485 def for normals).

Take the gloves for example vs your Scryer rep ones. You get 215 armor, lose 3 stam and 15 agi (the agi not of high value to you either) and 10 def rating. But you'll have 2 sockets that you can use to get more stam or spell damage or make up the defense if you want it. if you are at 485 def you can put spell damage gems in there. There are crafters in the guild that can do the felsteel for you (Conc and Geld can do the helm and gloves I think and Tigo (yes o, not a) can do the legs)

Tigo can also craft the Helm of the Stalwart Defender. Which is a ton of stam. The resilience isn't the best use of item budget but if I did the math right it does mean you need 15 defense less to be crit immune since it should give you .6% crit reduction. The stam levels on it are huge as is the armor, and you get 3 sockets to tweak it for whatever you want.


Again none of this is specifics of do this over that. But it's just some stuff to keep in mind as possibilities.

You're likely tanking for groups that will highly value speed. I often tank 3+ mobs on Kam even when I have the CC because it's just faster and the damage I take isn't going to be an issue. If you can get get enough AoE aggro down (high spell damage so a single consecrate + retribution aura + the blocks off holy shield blocks and then the swings with SoR up being enough aggro, not sure if that will be doable) that should keep your down time for needing to refill the mana shorter (should probably only need a drink if other folks need a drink) which is good. Since you'll likely never tank something with a fully level/gear appropriate group (the alts and new mains will have crafted gear and twinked AH items and drops that generally aren't available to folks the first times they hit those places) you'll generally have way more DPS and healing than the instance needs. Just something to color your thoughts.

Except I might try doing some PUGs as well. My experience with sophie (my priest for those who don't know) is that groups often fill up on healers before they fill up on tanks. So I do kind of have a slight plan of watching the LFG channel for groups to tank things for.

Your point is right though, a guild normal instance run is a cakewalk. Quite often the tank isn't even really necessary since things die so fast anyway and there is often tons of CC. So in those types of runs gearing is either not important or different choices can be made. I guess what I'm more asking though is what specific items I should be aiming to get so that when I hit revered with places I will be able to hold up inside of a heroic. It'll give me a guideline of what instances I need to prioritize for what drops, what reps to build, etc etc.

Yeah I can't help there as much. Kam got there on pretty much quest rewards and crafts. I wear pretty much 2 instance drops. Devilshark cape and Pauldrons of Brute Force on him (I do have Jade Skull BP now and Elementium Band of the Sentry) but for a warrior you can be heroic ready off of just quest rewards and crafts basically. Not sure about a pally. So yeah this isn't really a value added post. But I didn't look at instance drops. I've done a few PuGs and my spec was designed to deal with PuG tanking actually but I prefer guild runs. I've already tanked a heroic Slave Pens and that was before I had the shield and axe from the shadowmoon quests. I figure a paladin could fake it in warrior gear as well for heroics though aggro would be iffy since you wouldn't have a ton of spell damage.

Thats actually one area I'm kind of curious about...how much spell damage is needed. As a healer, the biggest difference I've noticed between paladin and warrior tanks has been the stamina difference. As a rogue I've not really noticed aggro issues with either. So this makes me think that my priorities should follow the order of:

Stamina
Block Rating (since blocking does soooo many things for a pally)
Defence (though still wanting enough to be crit immune even though I don't have it as top priority)
Block Value (figure that since blocking is so good, blocking for more should be good too)
Spell Damage

So while I'm not wanting to ignore spell damage, I'm really wondering how necessary it will be. It seems like its the last in the line of priorties and that just the random amounts of it I can pick up on gear with other stats will be enough. This may just be something I have to figure out from actually playing with people since its kind of a fluid thing. I think that was the basic thinking behind my gear choices. I'm going to have to go back over them and compare to the items others have listed here.

I found that when I hit 70 on my pally tank that I was able to hold aggro just fine with 100-150 spell damage. However, that often meant that I was spamming all of my biggest threat moves constantly and I had to rely on salvation a lot more. Nowadays, I generally am tanking with 200-300 spell damage and I can literally spam out threat at the start of the fight and then slack off for the last 2/3rds of the fight. In endurance fights, it really, really helps to have the higher spell damage because you can throw down holy shield and consecration while having judged and used seal of wisdom to regenerate mana.

Thus, for bosses I usually start out at full threat and pop Avenging Wrath on my second cycle and continue to spam threat for those 30 seconds. Then I usually have a gigantic threat lead and I judge wisdom, cast wisdom and just keep consecration and holy shield up. If people get close, then I might start using seal of righteousness again, but that is usually only for very high threat groups (like groups with insane shadow priests).

As for tank priorities, I think you're pretty good. Stam > all for non-raid tanking, generally, shield block is amazing for paladins, defense will get you uncrushability and decent avoidance, shield block rating is ok and spell damage will help lock down aggro and let you use wisdom more to help chain pull.

I'm going to step through each position and discuss whats going through my head in comparing gear I picked, the stuff tuft listed, and the felsteel that GG meantioned.

Head

Helm of the Righteous
946 Armor
54 Stamina
24 Intellect
23 spell damage
6 mp5
25 defense
5% Stun resist

X-52 Technician's Helm
875 Armor
36 Stamina
16 Strength
16 Intellect
36 spell damage
6 mp5
16 defense

Felsteel Helm
1284 Armor
51 stamina
9 spell damage
33 defense
+4 hit rating

or (depending on socketing)

1284 Armor
45 stamina
15 spell damage
33 defense
+4 hit rating

X-52 looks like the weakest, though since its a quest reward it may be what I end up with till I get the others (though I think we have extra felsteel helms floating around so not sure about even that). It does have more spell damage, but the loss of stamina, defense, and armor hurts it in my mind. I like the armor and increased defense on felsteel, but the added damage, int, and stamina on righteous makes me lean towards it. It has plenty of defense as well I think and so the trade off seems decent to me. One big question that I'm unsure of is how much to weigh armor into things. Felsteel has 338 more armor which is a good amount more for one item. I can't judge how important that is though so I may be undervalueing it.

Shoulder

Spaulders of the Righteous
873 Armor
34 Stamina
22 Intellect
25 spell damage
23 defense

I don't think there is really another choice here. Kaylaan's would be an option till I get them, but I don't think they really compare.

Chest

Jade-Skull Breastplate
1164 Armor
30 Strength
50 Stamina
25 defense
23 block rating

Breastplate of the Righteous
1164 Armor
48 Stamina
28 Intellect
2 mp5
33 spell damage
24 defense

I was originally thinking the Block Rating would make jade skull worth using, but looking at these two now I'm starting to wonder about that. Righteous has only 2 less stam, but has int, mp5, spell damage, and 1 more defense. So its quite possible that I'll end up going for righteous here. I do oh so like the idea of block rating though so I'm slightly torn here.

bracer

Sha'tari Wrought Armguards
509 Armor
20 Strength
27 Stamina
16 defense

Thadell's Bracers
448 Armor
12 Intellect
21 Stamina
16 spell damage
9 defense

This one is a little tough. 6 stamina, 7 defense, 61 armor, 20 strength vs 16 spell damage and 12 int. Currently I'm leaning towards thadell's, but its very very close.

gloves

Gauntlets of the Chosen
728 Armor
30 Stamina
15 Agility
35 defense

Felsteel Gloves
943 Armor
39 Stamina
10 spell damage
3 Parry
25 defense

Gauntlets of the Righteous
728 Armor
22 Stamina
20 Intellect
21 spell damage
7 mp5
10 defense

Spiritualist's Gauntlets
623 Armor
27 Stamina
20 spell damage
5 mp5
17 defense

Looking at these choices I'm really starting to lean towards Felsteel. They have the best armor and stamina. Plus they have second best defense and some spell damage. So they really do look like the way to go to me now. This also frees me up in choosing aldor or scryer. Leaving me having no clue which way to go again.

belt

Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard
655 Armor
33 Stamina
20 block value
20 defense
24 block rating

Lightwarden's Girdle
622 Armor
14 Intellect
30 Stamina
28 spell damage
23 defense

Another choice between spell damage and block rating. I'm really unsure about this one since all the stats are so close together. One thing to consider though is that Lightwarden's requires aldor rep. Currently I'm leaning towards Sha'tari, but its very close for me.

legs

Legplates of the Righteous
1019 Armor
27 Stamina
24 Intellect
10 mp5.
28 spell damage
26 defense

Felsteel Leggings
1257 Armor
57 Stamina
10 spell damage
4 Dodge
37 defense

The huge stamina on felsteel makes me seriously consider taking it. It does also have a little spell damage though not as much as righteous. The big lose is in int and mp5, but it does have more defense and armor as well. I think I might go with felsteel though since I always feel like paladins are too low on stamina and this helps with that.

boots

Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves
680 Armor
25 Stamina
18 defense
28 dodge

Starcaller's Plated Stompers
722 Armor
14 Intellect
21 Stamina
16 spell damage
13 defense

I'm thinking maybe the starcaller's are better since they have more armor, int, and spell damage. Less defense and stamine, but not a huge amount less in either case. The dodge on flesh beast's is interesting and could make them better, but I'm currently leaning towards starcaller's.

So what does that give in total if I go with the options I was leaning towards

7008 Armor
100 Intellect
307 Stamina
133 spell damage
176 defense
4 Dodge
20 block value
24 block rating
3 Parry
8 mp5
5% Stun resist

not counting weapon, shield, trinkets, rings, libram, talents, or base stats

edit: apparently not counting a neck piece either
edit 2: and a cloak...man I forgot lots of slots. : )

There was a post on the Paladin forums giving you pre-Kara gear to get to reach 11k HP unbuffed and uncrushable. I'll have to see if I can dig it up. This is what my Paladin will be outfitted in when he's ready for Karazhan (currently he's in pure spellpower gear, primarily Lamellar PvP gear, for 5-mans.) Note that I've already factored in gem bonuses, socket bonuses, and enchant bonuses where applicable.

Head: Tankatronic Goggles

1296 Armor
+97 STA
+58 DefR
+39 DodgeR
+13 HitR

Enchant would be Glyph of the Defender (Keepers of Time revered), while the gems would be Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (+18 STA and +5% stun resist) and Enduring Talasite (+6 STA and +4 DefR.) You get an additional 6 STA for socket bonus. If you aren't an Engineer, Felsteel Helm is the next best choice, or you could farm Heroics and get the helm from the badges.

Neck: Strength of the Untamed

+27 STA
+19 DefR
+18 DodgeR

You get this from Cenarion Expedition revered. There are other necks with more STA, but this one has a great combination of Defense and Dodge, which helps you reach uncrushable status that much faster

Shoulders: Spaulders of the Righteous

873 Armor
+46 STA
+22 INT
+35 DefR
+15 Spellpower
+10 DodgeR

Drops from Lag, in Botanica. Socket it with two Solid Stars of Elune (+12 STA each), or with two Solid Azure Moonstones if you need to save some cash (+9 STA each.) Add Greater Inscription of the Knight (+15 DefR and +10 DodgeR) or Inscription of the Knight, depending on your status with the Aldor.

Back: Devilshark Cape

78 Armor
+22 STA
+20 DefR
+30 DodgeR
+29 BlockV

Drops from Warlord Kalithresh, in Steam Vaults. Add a Dodge enchant (+12 DodgeR) to it, and you're ready to go. +12 AGI and +120 Armor are also options, but the Dodge enchant will help you reach uncrushable faster.

Chest: Vindicator's Hauberk

1164 Armor
+39 STA
+150 HP
+46 DefR
+19 DodgeR

This chestplate is pretty much the reason to be Aldor for tanks. If you're Scryer, the Jade-Skull Breastplate out of Mechanar is a suitable substitute. Swap in Breastplate of the Righteous for trash and take advantage of the -15% Consecration MP cost 2-piece bonus. Add +150 HP to your boss tanking chestpieces, and +6 to all stats to your trash/spellpower chestpieces.

Shirt: Rich Purple Silk Shirt

Bosses will laugh you out of the instance if you're wearing anything but this

Wrists: Bracers of the Green Fortress

581 Armor
+51 STA
+17 DefR
+10 DodgeR

Crafted by Blacksmiths. Mats are a little steep, but you won't find better avoidance bracers for some time. Bracers of Dignity out of Heroic Arcatraz or Vambraces of Courage are suitable substitutes until you can gather the mats to get these crafted. Get +12 STA on them regardless. You may want to opt for +15 Spellpower on your trash/spellpower bracers (I'd suggest either Veteran's Lamellar or Bracers of Dignity for that set.)

Hands: Felsteel Gloves

943 Armor
+59 STA
+25 DefR

Crafted by Blacksmiths, and fairly cheaply at that. Like all sockets, you're going to want to use Solid Stars of Elune or Solid Azure Moonstones. I prefer +8 STA from a Knothide Armor Kit, but +15 AGI is a viable alternative, or you could even shell out for +2% Threat if that's your sort of thing.

Waist: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard

655 Armor
+33 STA
+20 DefR
+24 BlockR
+29 BlockV

Acquired by completing the quest, How to Break Into the Arcatraz. You'll be needing exalted Sha'tar reputation for your shield, anyway, so this is a quest well worth doing, and it's not particularly hard, either. You even get an Arcatraz Key for your efforts.

Legs: Timewarden's Leggings

1019 Armor
+133 STA
+12 AGI
+18 DefR
+11 DodgeR

From Keepers of Time Revered status. If you're a Blacksmith and want the Felsteel bonus for some reason, Felsteel Leggings are a sidegrade to these. Give them three Solid Stars or Solid Moonstones and a Nethercleft kit and you're set.

Feet: Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves

680 Armor
+37 STA
+18 DefR
+28 DodgeR

From the quest, Someone Else's Hard Work Pays Off. Get +12 STA on them and you're set.

Ring: Elementium Band of the Sentry

+24 STA
+20 DefR
+19 DodgeR

Off Harbinger Skyriss in Arcatraz. You'll have to kill him for a quest, anyway, so you might as well get this ring in the process

Ring: Andormu's Tear

+10 DefR
+26 DodgeR
+15 BlockR

From the quest, Hero of the Brood. The lack of STA hurts, but this ring has absurd avoidance stats. If you chose a different ring for the quest reward, you can have a Delicate Eternium Ring crafted for you, or you could pick up Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense out of Mechanar. There are many options to this ring, but none are as good at pure avoidance as this one.

Trinket: Figurine of the Colossus

+32 BlockR

Dropped by Warchief Kargath Bladefist, in Shattered Halls. Other options include Adamantine Figurine and Dabiri's Enigma. You DO generate threat for the heals during the use portion of this trinket, which makes it fantastic for fast-attacking enemies like Prince and Moroes.

Trinket: Goblin Rocket Launcher

+45 STA

Crafted and usable only by Goblin Engineers The huge STA helps compensate for Pallies' naturally lower HP. Other options include Argussian Compass, off The Black Stalker in Heroic Underbog, or Darkmoon Card: Vengeance (which you should get after you reach uncrushable status, anyway), which comes from collecting and completing the Furies deck of Darkmoon cards.

Weapon: Crystalforged Sword

+30 STA
+8 INT
+11 BlockR
+161 Spellpower

Created via Apexis Crystal Infusion, in the Blade's Edge Mountains Ogri'la areas. It's a random drop off pretty much any mob in the area. Shartuul has the highest droprate for this item, but it's probably more likely you'll see it in the AH from time to time, usually for about 100-200g. Get +40 Spellpower on it. If you can't get one, Continuum Blade from Keepers of Time revered is a suitable substitute.

Shield: Crest of the Sha'tar

4465 Armor
132 Block
+61 STA
+13 DefR
+3 DodgeR

Acquired via Sha'tar Exalted status. Azure-Shield of Coldarra is better, but also requires a fair number of Heroic badges, and you'll need Libram of Repentance before anything else. It's a great shield to have, and allows you the option of spending your Badges on other things. Two Solid Stars or Solid Moonstones and +18 STA enchant make it complete.

Libram: Libram of Repentance

+42 BlockR while Holy Shield is active.

Essentially adds +5.30% Block while Holy Shield is up, for a total of +35.30%. Absolutely critical for reaching uncrushable status, and should be the very first thing you buy with Heroic badges.

EDIT: The cookiecutter Paladin tank build is 0/49/12. Once you start moving beyond Karazhan, you'll generally want to drop Reckoning for Weapon Expertise, since Reckoning won't proc as often due to you avoiding many hits, and Weapon Expertise will end up as being more threat overall. You could probably drop some points out of Anticipation when you no longer need the extra defense and move them around as you see fit; Guardian's Favor might be a good idea.

As the others have been saying, how much +dmg you need is dependant on your DPSers. If they're well geared or unskilled, you have to be a lot more careful of your threat.

The rule-of-thumb for pally tanks seems to be to disregard +dmg everywhere but your weapon. Grab a caster weapon and put +40 dmg on it, then gear for def, stam, & avoidance. The Greatsword of Horrors or the Continuum Blade are good choices; the Crystalforged Sword is the best you can get this side of Gruul or Arenas. Not to say a little extra +dmg from other pieces isn't nice, just that you will probably want to focus on being able to take the hits first.

If you're taking the def / avoidance quest rewards as you level, you should have very little difficulty hitting 490 defense, iirc I hit 490 the same day I dinged 70, and the only thing I bought was the Felsteel Gloves.

You'll find several gear slots that have very few options that really fit the bill. Shoulders, wrists, and boots especially have pretty slim pickin's--Artega's picked out most of the really popular tankin' stuff. The odd thing is that there's very little of any use from Heroics. I only run them for badges and heal gear.

Most completely ignore socket bonuses and use nothing but +stam gems.

I found gearing up to be more interesting on my Pally tank than on my previous chars--instead of simply, "I need more AP" or "I need more +Heal", there are actual accomplishable objectives, and it feels good to get there. Hit 490 def. Earn the 15 badges for your libram. Hit 102.4% avoidance. Well, those and the ever-present "More HP".

Hang on to the gear you find with particularly good avoidance, HP, etc. If you start raiding you'll have a balancing act to maximise your HP while maintaining uncrushable, and it'll change depending on your latest upgrade, or even what buffs you have on.

You need more spellpower as you progress through raid instances, but for Karazhan and the like, just what you get from your weapon will be enough. Joining an Arena team for access to the season 2 spellpower mace would make a huge difference.

Instead of pure stamina gems I was thinking of using the following:

red: Glowing Nightseye = +5 Spell Damage, +6 Stam
blue: Glowing Nightseye = +5 Spell Damage, +6 Stam
yellow: Enduring Talasite = +4 Def, +6 Stam

I'll have to see how my stats are as I get the pieces, but I like the idea of adding some other stats as well as stamina. Plus many of the socket bonuses are useful to a paladin in some way. It could very well be that my stamina will be low enough that I need the pure gems though.

So kinda putting in an alternate for what I was thinking for Angelique upon hitting 70 is the following:

28/33/0

The idea behind this build is to be able to tank reasonably well and also heal reasonably well when the need arises. I did some number crunching on Ardent Defender and found it to be woefully inadequate (if you're at 35% health it means you have to take 50% of your health to die and just goes downward from there). Also, while Avenger's Shield is nice, I think I can live without it for purposes of being a better healer when needed.

Another option I was looking at that would allow for more tanking, but a little less healing would be to go 20/33/8 with the changes being nothing past tier 4 in Holy and dropping Aura Mastery to get Benediction and 3 points into Deflection.

Anyone see any glaring wholes in either of these two builds?

Just adding a couple of items for me to consider. Making sure I have them in one place.

Steam-Hinge Chain of Valor
Neck
+26 Stamina
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 19.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 29.

Protector's Mark of the Redemption
Finger
+22 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 25.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 15.

Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense
Unique
Finger
+15 Stamina
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 15.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 39.

Dabiri's Enigma
Unique
Trinket
Equip: Increases defense rating by 30.
Use: Increases block rating by 125 for 15 sec.

If I were going for more of a hybrid healer/tank build, I'd opt for something like this 28/33/0 build. I personally don't think that dropping healing points to pick up just 3% Parry is really worth it. If you're raiding you'll have raiding gear to help you hit uncrushable... if you're not, then you don't need to be uncrushable and then 8 points for 3% Parry isn't such a great investment.

So, as was stated to GG, alot of the point of this is so I have an idea of what places I need to go...so I have some sort of plan. To that end I need to look at where things come from now.

helm
Felsteel Helm: crafted
Helm of the Righteous: Mech

neck
Strength of the Untamed: CE Rep
Steam-Hinge Chain of Valor: SV

cloak
Devilshark Cape: SV

shoulder
Spaulders of the Righteous: Bot

chest
Vindicator's Hauberk: Aldor Rep
Jade-Skull Breastplate: Mech
Breastplate of the Righteous: SV

bracer
Sha'tari Wrought Armguards: SL
Thadell's Bracers: Non-instance Quest

glove
Felsteel Gloves: crafted
Gauntlets of the Righteous: SH

waist
Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard: Mech and Bot
Lightwarden's Girdle: Non-instance Quest

leg
Felsteel Leggings: crafted
Legplates of the Righteous: BM
Timewarden's Leggings: KoT Rep

feet
Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves: MT
Starcaller's Plated Stompers: Non-instance Quest

rings
Protector's Mark of the Redemption: Non-instance Quest
Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense: Mech
Elementium Band of the Sentry: Arc
Andormu's Tear: BM

trinkets
Figurine of the Colossus: SH
Dabiri's Enigma: Non-instance Quest

weapon
Crystalforged Sword: Ogri'la random drop
Continuum Blade: KoT Rep

shield
Crest of the Sha'tar: Sha'tar Rep
Platinum Shield of the Valorous: SL
Aegis of the Sunbird: Bot
Petrified Lichen Guard: Spore Rep

Libram
Libram of Saints Departed: BF
Libram of the Eternal Rest: Sethekk


So it looks to me like my main goals should be running SV and getting KoT rep. Doing those two things should get me a decent set of armor when combined with crafted items, quest rewards, and a couple random runs through other places I'm sure will get hit. Mech also seems a decent place to hit with several items coming out of it. This tells me some places to focus on anyway.

Greatsword of Horrid Dreams is good as well. SL drop off Murmur.

The crystalforged sword is fairly common too, you may be able to find it cheaply on the AH. (look for a Depleted Sword or Crystalforged Sword)

I found several, all of which I placed with paladin friends and my own paladin.

I'm finding myself becoming torn about talent builds again. Here are the two choices going through my mind

0/49/12 VS 0/38/23

My plan was to go 0/49/12 and to run retribution aura while tanking. As I get better and better gear retribution aura will start procing less since I will be avoiding more hits. So this made me start debating my aura choice. Devotion aura has always seemed rather unimpressive as well. This led me down the path to the second build. It gives me access to improved sanctity aura which gives 10% more holy damage and 2% more total damage. So where retribution gets worse with better gearing, sanctity gets better as your gear improves. In addition, retribution does almost nothing for the rest of the group since they shouldn't be getting hit. Improved sanctity gives 2% more damage to the rest of the group and so thus is of use there. Given the choice between the two auras I'm really starting to lean towards sanctity. I'd like to hear thoughts from other people on this though. I've never seen it used at all in game and so there has to be reasons why.

Now its not actually a straight swap though. Other talents are lost and gained so that has to be considered as well. The switch means losing avenger's shield, ardent defender, and either anticipation or reckoning. meanwhile it gains sanctity aura, the improvement for it, crusade, pursuit of justice, and vindication. First I'll talk about the losses.

Avenger's shield: It gives a good head start on aggro, kills runners, and can be fit in many other times as well. So its a good solid talent that does help a good amount. In my mind its the one big loss from the switch. I have been noticing that it is quite the mana hog though. Now I'm not geared yet (only lvl 53 so this is all theory) and so that could be why it feels like a hog. I'm just unsure that I will really miss the skill. It'll help for sure in PUGs where people don't know how to manage threat, but in guild runs the frontloading should be less of an issue I would think. I also think that on bosses sanctity will add more threat over the length of the fight, especially considering the mana saved from not using avenger's shield could be put into other threat causing skills as well. So this becomes a talent used on trash pulls. Still useful, but trash is called trash for a reason.

Argent defender: I kind of like the idea of this skill, but yet kind of don't. Its a good way to help a healer who has fallen behind catch back up. I should appreciate that alot since I have a nasty habit as a healer of falling behind. Yet I know that that is just me not playing my healer enough and not playing as well as I should. So in my mind this also kind of becomes a PUG talent. I worry that in most situations it will just never really matter.

Anticipation/Reckoning: Here we have a choice of where to pull points from. As gear gets better anticipation becomes less needed. Now it does add some flexibility. It allows different gear choices in that its less defence that your gear has to get in total. So its nice to have, but not absolutely required. Reckoning is also nice to have. It suffers from the same problem as retribution aura though. As your gear gets better reckoning will proc less. So it might be possible to do away with the talent when you reach a certain gear level. Now I'm going to wager that in most heroics and in raids mobs will always get some damage through blocks and so you aren't going to be dodging/parrying all the attacks. There will still be plenty of chances for it to proc. It does get less as gear improves though. That is why I list it as an option.

Now the thing with all of these choices is that they are basically gear dependent. All of these skills that are being lost are good when you don't have that good of gear, but become less important as you get better gear. The exception to that could be avenger's shield, but I feel that even that gets worse as your gear gets better since your overall aggro generation should go up and so you need the frontloading less. From looking at gear it feels to me like it won't be too hard to get pretty decent gear. Questing in itself seems to give a decent set and there are alot of crafted items to add with it. Several slots are rep rewards as well so don't require luck in getting a drop, but just time put in. So I feel like it might be possible to lose these talents, though I'm by no means sure. I've very torn about it. Of course there is the option of keeping them until I get the gear and then respecing out of them, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. I like to play with the same build as much as possible.

Now for what is gained.

Sanctity aura: Added holy damage means more threat and more dps as well. The majority of a paladin's threat comes from holy damage and so a 10% boost seems pretty nice to me. In addition that 10% should be further boosted by righteous fury so the threat part of it is even more than a 10% gain. Even on AOE pulls, with a decent amount of spell damage I feel like this could be more threat and damage that retribution aura provides.

Improved sanctity aura: It increases the damage done by the whole party. It feels like the only non-resist aura that really gives any gain to the rest of the group. In addition it affects my damage as well. So thats 2%+righteous fury more threat.

Crusade: more damage and threat against select mob types. Situationally useful. I feel like there are alot of those types in instances though. Not a great talent, but semi-decent filler.

Pursuit of justice: paladins have no intercept type ability. Their taunt is ranged so that helps, but if I need to catch a mob the run speed will help. Again, not great, but semi-decent filler.

Vindication: Doesn't work on most bosses. Should work on heroic trash. Like I said earlier though, trash is trash for a reason. So definately the weakest of the gains. Pretty questionable really.

So basically the gain is a good aura that helps the whole group and a couple minor filler talents. What is lost is a good skill and a couple of talents that might be nullified by gear. Thus I'm torn. I see arguements for both sides and I'm just not sure which way I really want to go.

Fanblade Pauldrons are better than Righteous for pure mitigation, but overall I'd probably use Righteous anyway.

Bracers of the Green Fortress are the best bracers you can get for a good long time, as far as reaching uncrushable goes. Bracers of Dignity would be ideal for trash.

Belt of the Guardian is pretty much the best possible belt you can get for some time, though with two vortexes required to make it, it's probably not gonna be cheap.

Argussian Compass is a good trinket to use after you've reached uncrushable without both trinkets. Upgrades to this would be either Engineering trinket (and you can use two of them for a massive +90 STA) or Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. If you're willing to spare the cash and time, picking up engineering comes highly recommended.

Libram of Repentance is the only Libram you'll be using while raiding, at least to start out with. It's crucial for reaching uncrushable. I'd still probably use it for Heroics, though you could probably drop it for Eternal Rest and two-piece Righteous for 5-mans.

Darkmoon Card: Vengeance is probably the best trinket for a paladin tank. The proc is affected by spelldamage and Righteous Fury. Add to that the +51 stamina...

Something that just occurred to me.

Drop Precision and take 3/5 Weapon Expertise instead. The first 5 weapon skill above your unbuffed maximum adds +3% hit already -- and 3/5 Weapon Expertise grants 6 weapon skill.

Wouldn't this only be the case against level 73 mobs? Lower level mobs would already be within 10 weapon skill of the player and so those points would have less effect. This means 3/5 Weapon Expertise would only grant that amount of +hit versus raid bosses while Precision effects all mobs equally.

Also, just to keep things up to date, I believe I have made up my mind to go with this 0/38/23 build.

You're right, of course, but weapon skill doesn't just affect +hit.

That's because Hellfire Warders are 73s. They're not 72s.

They may be now, but they used to be listed as L72's. It caused a fair bit of discussion because people were getting crushed by mobs that were listed as L72. There are screenshots of it and stuff.

So I have a new little area of debate. When I am soloing or need to dps in a group, what is the best route? With the above build I can easily move a point to pick up Seal of Command (which I've actually already done since I figure for one point its worth it to have options). I'm horde though which means I also will eventually get Seal of Blood. As I understand it, Seal of Command gets boosted by spell damage where Seal of Blood gets boosted by physical damage. So I could build a spell damage set and run Seal of Command or I could build a strength/AP set and run Seal of Blood. From some readings it seems like Seal of Blood may actually do more damage with the right gear set, but I don't think I've read anything that is really indepth about it or much of a trusted source. So I'm looking to pick the brains of people here. The basic question is: How do those two seals work and which is better for dpsing?

If you have any decent amount of spell damage at all, Seal of Righteousness (and especially Judgement of Righteousness) will far outperform Seal of Command. Seal of Command is for Retribution specs who are geared for physical DPS, not tanks who are geared for spellpower; same with Seal of Blood.

The best method of questing is AE grinding. Grab a pack of the mobs you need to kill, put up Blessing of Sanctuary, judge Light on the first one, put up Seal of Righteousness, pop a spellpower trinket, drop a couple of downranked Consecrations (I use rank 2), and keep Holy Shield up. I switch to Blessing of Wisdom and stop using Holy Shield when I'm down to 1-2 mobs and start judging Wisdom to get some mana back. Pop a bandage and move on to the next pack.

You can judge light and then use light if you want to go the complete self-sufficient route, but it takes much, much longer since you're using a low-DPS spellcaster weapon instead of a normal physical DPS weapon. You have no downtime at all, but you'll probably fall asleep halfway through a pull.

Alright so Seal of Command is physical based. That makes it for sure that I need to build a strength based set. I figure its good to be prepared in case I end up in a group with two tanks. If I have such a set and am forced to try to dps I should at least do better than I would without it. So that info helps some. I'm building up a healing set as well even though I plan on tanking as much as possible. I like to be prepared.

I'm still unsure which is better between Seal of Command and Seal of Blood though. If I'm in a 5 man with somebody else tanking and somebody else healing, which route would be the best for me dpsing?