I'd like to consolidate formulas to determine the relative strength of post 3.0.2 paladin tanking gear in terms of their effectiveness at increasing TPS. Mitigation stats really aren't changing in terms of their usefulness, except that block rating will be even more useless due to no longer being concerned with crushing blow immunity.

I'd like to get a sense for how to evaluate nice, slow high TPS one handed tanking weapons warriors traditionally used exclusively against the ubiquitous Hammer of Judgement I have been using since we set foot in Hyjal.

I'd like to look at some of the warrior tanking gear from the badge vendor or hyjal/BT bosses that I see drop regularly and get a sense for whether it will provide more TPS than my current +dmg/+int paladin tanking gear that will soon be converted.

However, I'd also like to get some work done at the office, spend time with my two kids, and raid 3.5 nights a week, plus spend time with my wife.

Given those two wants, if anyone sees work being done on consolidation of known (through experimentation or math or both) rules of thumb for comparing gear post 3.0.2, post a link here, and I'll do the same =)

Some quick formulas. They should be accurate as of beta build 8926; most are taken straight from Wowhead.

Coefficients:
-Judgement: 1 + .2 AP + .32 SP
--w/ SoR active: 1 + (.2 AP + .32 SP) x 1.25 = 1 + .25 AP + .4 SP
--w/ SoV active: 1 + (.2 AP + .32 SP) x 1.v, where v = # of Holy Vengeance debuffs
--w/ SoB active: .45 weapon damage + .2 AP + .32 SP
-Consecration: 113 + .04 AP + .04 SP every second
-Hammer of the Righteous: 1.2 weapon damage (BUT normalized with weapon DPS, not damage range -- this is a UNIQUE implementation, as far as I am aware)
-Shield of Righteousness: 2.4 BV
-SoR: (.028 AP + .055 SP) x weapon speed
-SoV: (.039 AP + .019 SP) x v every tick for 15 seconds
-- SoV proc when stacked to 5: 0.012 SP x weapon speed
-SoB: .35 weapon damage

2 STR = 1 BV

The optimal rotation is 96969. It switches between Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of Righteousness every other GCD, and cycles Judgement, Holy Shield and Consecration for the rest. When you have to inject something else into the rotation, the first thing dropped is HotR.

0.0 Judgement
1.5 HotR
3.0 Holy Shield
4.5 ShoR
6.0 Consecration
7.5 HotR
9.0 Judgement
10.5 ShoR
12.0 Holy Shield
13.5 HotR
15.0 Consecration

etc.

Basically, we want as much STR as possible. It's our new primary threat stat. ShoR is our bread and butter; it deals absolutely devastatingly much damage. It scales extremely well with STR due to the new STR-to-BV ratio. HotR scales only with AP (and thus with STR). Due to AP costing half as many itempoints as SP, we also scale better with AP on all our spells and abilities, with the notable exceptions of SoR, Holy Shield, and Retribution Aura. SoR scale slightly better with AP, and Holy Shield and Retribution Aura scale better with SP.

So go for the gear with better avoidance/mitigation, as well as STR, Expertise and Hit. Crit is also much more valuable now.

SP is a decent threat stat, but it provides no mitigation the way STR does, and STR will provide more threat point-for-point under regular circumstances. AP costs half the itempoints SP does, and it scales slightly better than SP under regular circumstances, but it also provides no mitigation.

EDIT: Found this spreadsheet which might be a bigger help than my rambling.

They're changing the STR-to-Block ratio to 2:1 instead of 22:1? That's... huge. Does it apply for all classes, not just warriors and pallies?

Well they are also changing the str to AP for a couple of classes as well. Shaman will only get 1 AP per str instead of 2 and they now get 1 AP per agi instead of none.

Blizzard wants str to be the tanking stat and agi to be the DPS stat.

It certainly means that gearing Prot warriors for PvP will be much less of a pain. No longer having to try and squeeze in a little extra block value while stacking the usual stats will be nice. Also means they won't have to design a second Warrior set

I think the first thing I want to puzzle out is how level 70 epic weapons stack against one another after 3.0.2.

I am really tired of my big pink hammer of judgement. After picking up my tier 6 shoulders last night, it and my t5 helm are my last remaining pieces of pink-pally-gear ™.

It'd be nice to see some analysis showing that some warrior-style tanking weapon from a t6 boss or otherwise is a good upgrade to it. I'll have to make time to play with numbers later, looks like.

I haven't plugged in the numbers myself, but what I have read indicates that spell damage weapons will tend to still be better for most applications. I'll try to plug some stuff in if I get more time.

None of the current warrior tanking weapons will outdo equal-ilevel SP weapons for threat -- all you're getting from them is more white damage and more HotR damage. The tanking weapons will not have AP, STR, or Hit.

They will have more defensive stats, though, and from initial reports, threat is so ridiculous right now that dropping an SP weapon won't do much. Many paladins are reporting tanking without Righteous Fury and still having no issues holding aggro.

You could potentially outdo an SP weapon with a high ilevel DPS weapon.

Yeah, I was wondering about something like Syphon of the Nathrezm if I see it drop.

One of the reason WotLK spell power weapons are the highest threat for tankadins is that in wrath spell power weapons no longer have massively lower physical DPS stats on them.

In TBC, weapons like Hammer of Judgement have less than half of the DPS of weapons at the same iLevel intended for phyiscal DPS/tanking.

I did read some mention, regardless of weapon, that after 3.0.2 potency (even before we have SotR available) beats out +40 spell damage for a weapon enchant.

Syphon of the Nathrezim versus Hammer of Judgement? Hm... I don't know how often the Chance on Hit procs, but I honestly doubt it will compare. It will give massively more white damage, especially with the change to gearing otherwise, but... no, it won't edge it out. I don't think so, at any rate.

WotLK Spellpower weapons still have lower physical DPS stats on them. They are simply not as bad off as in TBC. Compare the Titansteel Guardian and the Titansteel Bonecrusher -- the first is a SP weapon and has 82.9 DPS, while the latter is a physical DPS weapon and has 143.6 DPS.

Potency is nice and it will give mitigation now, but it still only grants half as many stat points as Spellpower, and we do not scale THAT much better with AP/STR. Spellpower remains the better enchant in my book.

I just logged onto the PTR briefly and remembered that I already have Heartless banked if I really want to mess around with a physical dps weapon.

Potency grants 40 attack power, and it'll come down to whether 1 AP is better than 1 SP for threat. If it is, or if it is close, 40 AP + 20 BV could be quite nice.

EDIT-time to prepare for work, but at a glance, AP factors into most of our abilities at a 40% lower multiplier than SP, but only AP factors into HotR. Hmm.

10 BV, not 20.

AP is worse than SP per point for threat, but AP also only costs half as much. Potency is worth 20 itempoints, Spellpower is worth 40 itempoints. Potency's 20 itempoints are better spent, but Spellpower is just worth more.

Interesting thread here in the monster EJ prot paladin thread regarding post 3.0.2 and wrath weapon rankings.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17089-paladin...p78/#post870458

Note down the page that PsiVen concludes Potency is worth 29.2 TPS and 40 SP is worth 18.7 TPS in a world before level 75 (before ShoR).

I'll have to spend time later and see how this adds up or what it assumes, as well as whether or not the formulas Cathela and PsiVen were using at the time (end of August) hold up under the current patch.

I think I liked the world I walked into when I switched mains from my warlock to my paladin better. It was in the middle of TBC and all the groundwork on the relative value of stats was well established in the first post of paladin summary threads already =)

Hmm. I haven't done any calculations on it, but I honestly don't see how that's possible without considering ShoR.

I'll have to talk to PsiVen about it.

EDIT: Ah, yes. Now I see where I went wrong. Mea culpa. I got the SoV coefficients wrong; it's .019 SP + .039 AP, not the other way around. In that case, I can see that it's possible.

So it assumes SoV use? Makes sense. SoV is a new one for me, having only heard of its semi-usefulness in TBC (I'm horde), but it looks quite fun, particularly with HotR keeping it up on 3 mobs simultaneously if multi-tanking.

Sorry for posting a lot of these things without my own analysis behind it. At first I was mostly fishing for links to existing posts that other folks might have been following, and gradually have dome some of the fishing myself.

SoV is getting a massive boost in WotLK. I'm not currently using it because I find it unreliable with my weapon, as there's only a chance to apply the debuff. In WotLK, it applies the debuff on every swing that lands.

It's the de-facto tanking seal in WotLK, at least as things stand.

What will SoR be used for, then? Burst DPS/threat?

On trash that dies too fast for SoV to tick and as the DPS seal for Holy paladins.

I should have just posted it here, but here is a post I made in the 3.0.2 PTR thread about my experience solo'ing ramparts and shattered halls on the PTR last night.

Blizzard really did a fabulous job solving for the mana issues prot paladins had in TBC, and being able to solo instances you way, way out-gear is a symptom =)

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...ndpost&p=153791

EDIT - Thanks Alliera. I've seen the light on SoV. Just amazing, particularly AOE tanking 3-8 mobs in ramparts and wattching HotR keep three stacks rolling.

Yeah, SoV is awesome now.

Sadly, holy paladins will actually get more DPS from SoV too. They overnerfed Seal of Righteousness, looks like. Comparison:

905 dps SoR
930 dps SoV
720 dps SoMartyr

This was with spellpower gear. With attack power gear, the numbers change to:

982 dps SoR
1280 dps SoV
1140 dps SoMartyr

All DPS comparisons performed with melee, Holy Shock, and Shield of Righteousness, as well as judging wisdom.

When Holy paladins DPS, they will be soloing; I honestly doubt you'll be able to stack SoV high enough before the mobs die with SoV.

Regardless, soloing as a Holy paladin should be much less painful with ShoR, the new Holy Shock, and the Spellpower change.

Latest, greatest summary of how various stats apply to threat generation for us, according to analysis on the EJ forum

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28560-paladin...145/#post899118


Cool to see the Bonecrusher come out ahead now. I fancy the idea of sticking to non-SP weapons by and large, for a change.

As hinted in blue posts, looks like salvation has truly been baked into Righteous Fury. Here are some beta tests confirming, thanks to uber-EJ-poster Cathela:



Link to the Post

Posted originally here

Advise me Lurker tanks.

I have a choice to make before 3.0.2 hits, unless Illidan only drops non-pally tokens this week.

I can either take the Lightbringer Chestguard, as I am top priority in our raids at the moment, or I can buy Chestplate of Stoicism with some of the 360+ badges sitting in my bank.

Lets assume I put strictly 15 Stamina gems in all slots, as is my want (except rare cases where socket bonuses mitigate the stamina loss significantly).

Stoicism Has:
+3 Defense Rating
+34 Dodge Rating (1.8% Dodge)

Lightbringer Has:
+21 stamina (two extra sockets, minus the extra stam Stoicism has on it innately).
+9 Strength
+60 Armor
+8 BV (+12 if you count BV given from the extra strength).
+23 Block Rating

Now, I am thinking that I should discount the 23 BR Lightbringer gives me, as I am usually a good 5% over the 102.4 avoidance cap as it is, when holy shield is up, and even after losing 20 defense from talents in 3.0.2 I'll be over 102.4 with current gear, so extra block rating is lost.

The extra 9 Strength on Lightbringer is an extra 16 (or so, counting Kings) AP, which is a threat/DPS boost, but minor, and is an extra 4.5 BV.

The extra 12.5 BV from lightbringer is a nice, but minor boost, as is the 60 armor, to mitigation.

It seems to me, and correct me if I am undervaluing some of these stats, that what it really boils down to is 21 stamina (lightbringer) versus 1.8% dodge (stoicism).

21 stamina, for me, translates into about 21*(1.1 kings)*(1.06 sacred duty)*(1.06 combat expertise)*10 = around 260 HP.

So for a tier 6 geared tank....260 HP with a few more minor boosts thrown in or 1.8% dodge?

9 STR = 18 AP prior to Divine Strength and Kings. With them, it's 9 x 1.15 x 1.1 x 2 = 22 AP.

Remember that avoidance will have diminishing returns after 3.0.2, which will lower your overall avoidance. That can have an effect.

I'd choose Lightbringer, but I prefer Effective Health to avoidance. Then again, if you socket health in all your gem slots, you might be well covered in that area already, in which case Stoicism might be the better choice.

Socketing stamina gems is all well and good, but a more balanced approach is often better. This is not something I'm particularly good at myself; I usually socket stamina, but my gear also sucks royally -- I need it to get the EH minimums I'm trying to meet in the content I usually do.

What are your post-3.0 raid plans, Morde? Content dictates gearing, imo. Are you heading to Brutallus or chilling with T6? Would determine the importance of avoidance vs. EH.

~Frag

We are mostly playing with Illidan and Archimonde, with perhaps a couple of nights in Sunwell or so, a ZA speed run just to see how amusingly easy it is compared to our pre-patch bear runs (even though the 4th chest will be empty).

Our tanks have pretty much always believed in gemming for stamina over avoidance, except cases where things like +6 stam socket bonuses meant you only lose a few stamina to put a non-blue gem in place.

I believe they're actually putting a ring in the fourth chest.

Gemming for stamina is sort of like adhering to the lowest common denominator: It works on almost everything, but it isn't the optimal solution. It is by far the easiest (and simplest) choice, which is why so many favor it (including myself).

I'm right there with you. To make an honest assessment of optimal gem choice would mean first deciding which fights you are choosing to gem for (heavy hitters with fast attack speed? slow, heavy hitters? dual wielding fast hitters? AOE tanking?), and then require analysis of things like relative mitigation, time to live assuming no heals and such.

Compared to that, a simple rule of gem for stamina unless socket bonuses provide enough stamina that the loss is minimal...

In that case, and this is simply personal opinion based on observation and not having been there myself, I'd go with the heavier avoidance with a dodge gem in the red socket. Avoidance makes for easier farming runs, and (at least now) is at a premium for most tanks in SWP.

YMMV,
~Frag

Remember as well, Post 3.0 Sunwell Radiance is GONE. So, if you want to do SWP nights, it will be a little easier.

I'm not sure how that would way into the gem fight, but I'm excited at the prospect of being able to poke around in there.