Respecced my pally again, for the sake of comparing Seal of Command vs. Seal of Righeousness

(Anyone has a link to some solid comparison of those 2? With and without judged Crusader, with slow and fast weapons? Pretty please!)

Now, Seal of Command has 5 ranks, that increase the holy damage when target is stunned.
I found this obscure and marginally useful.

So, does it make sense to cast higher level of Seal of Command? Does it proc more often? Or should I stick to Rank 1, since the bonus damage = weapon damage = doesn't scale...

Thanks!

I, personally, would stick to rank 1 Seal of Command, as I find it one of the least useful seals to judge (especially when soloing), and as far as I can tell, there is no difference in the proc between the different ranks. It's kind of nice to have a seal that costs very little mana to cast at the higher levels.

Maybe some other paladin players have different opinions, though.

It would probably be a good idea to actually run some tests and see how often the proc actually lands. I have a lvl33 pally I'd be willing to run some tests with. Do we have a lvl50+ out there with the max lvl of Command who could do some comparable runs?

The problem with procs is that if the changes are small, you'll never notice if you're getting a better or worse proc rate. Going by feel generally results in bad data.

I will first repeat the standard line on these two seals:

proc % = 1.67 * PPM * WeaponSpeed

PPM is procs per minute. It is generally accepted that for Seal of Righteousness, PPM = 12. For Seal of Command, PPM = 4.8.

This means in my one hand setup with my 1.7 speed Mug O' Hurt, my proc rate for SoR is:

1.67 * 12 * 1.7 = 34 % chance to proc on a hit

That seems to be about right, maybe a tad low.

For my 2-hand setup with my 3.8 speed axe and SoC:

1.67 * 4.8 * 3.8 = 30% chance to proc on a hit

This seems to be correct also.


If you want to check the PPM data for these seals (and others too), the best way would be to put a stopwatch by the computer. Make sure to be in combat before you cast a seal (want to remove "sealless" time). Start it when you cast the seal, stop it when the mob is dead. Count the number of procs.

If you do this for a while then the numbers will get more reliable. I should do this as I'm currently grinding undead in the Western Plaguelands (first time actually grinding for exp Just need to figure out how to get my watch's stopwatch function to work. A statistician should be able to tell us about how long this should go on to have confidence in the data, especially for a low PPM skill like SoC.

Note that for Seal of Light and Seal of Wisdom you'll want to use a fast weapon, as the PPM is high enough that you may not get enough proc chances with a slow weapon. For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon, you wouldn't be able to test if a seal has > 20 PPM.

SoL and SoW certainly do have a high proc rate compared to command or righteousness, but I have not seen what the conventional PPM number is for them.

If you want to test Seal of Justice (I've not seen numbers for that), you also would need to count the "Immune" messages as a proc. It'd be interesting to verify the improved seal of justice talent (assuming you can find a paladin who has it


As far as your respeccing, I just hit 51 and got SoC for the first time (I have 31 in the holy tree). I'd been using SoR with JotC. It seems that Seal of Command, even with no vengeance or decent crit rate, seems to give slightly better damage (could be choice of weapon too). Certainly it is better for mana efficiency, as rank 1 SoC is virtually free. Judging SotC seems to have only marginal improvement for SoC (there are some interesting threads on the official paladin forum about this which I'd like to see verified).

I am thinking if you like the steady damage of SoR, it combines well with a protection build. SoR and Holy Shield seem to be the main beneficiaries of JotC. You can judge crusader, cast SoR, and use holy shield to do damage.

It seems the paladin has 3 primary options for turning mana into direct damage:

1. Holy shock
2. Holy shield
3. Consecration

Versus a single mob, consecration is the least efficient. Holy shield is the most efficient by far. Holy shock is marginally better than consecration, but can't be spammed. It can only be considered on the basis of other comparisons (burst damage, ranged damage) because it is a mana hog on a long timer.

Yeah, and if there's an improvement in proc rate on higher levels of Seal of Command, the difference between ranks 1 and 5 would probably be a lot more noticeable than the difference between ranks 1 and 2 (all I have to test with right now).

I would certainly go ahead and run tests if I could, but my gut instinct tells me that the proc rate isn't going to increase, since SoC gives essentially a percentage increase in damage. Percentage increases to damage in WoW are generally unchanged at higher levels, since the base damages that they modify increase accordingly as the character levels.

SoC seems to be the ONLY seal that pallies use in PvP, now that SotC has been "nerfed" (read: fixed.)

Seems they typically use Blessing of Might and SoC. Works pretty well; they often hit for more than double damage (usually 180-220 physical and 300+ holy), and I've been critted for more than 1400 damage combined (usually 400-550 physical and 800-1000 holy.) I wouldn't be at all suprised to see SoC nerfed, but I honestly think Pallies need it, since it's their only option for dealing half-decent melee damage, as far as I've seen. Besides, Holy Protection Potions do a good job of negating the first few procs

I'll keep my 200 physical with 120 holy damage every hit, with the occasional 500 damage shock.

Mana efficient? No. Fun to holy shock people who are bandaging while I'm shielded? Excessively.

And a decent protection build paladin is a nightmare for rogues and warrior. They don't need to shield.

How are you achieving this? I know with JotC you can proc SoR for 120, but to achieve it every hit, you would need a 5.00 speed weapon. (I did a couple minutes worth of tests for PPM on SoR last night and I see no reason to disbelieve the 12 PPM that is generally accepted).

Are you a holy spec who uses SoR and a slow two-hander (with a 3.9 speed weapon SoR would proc 78% of the time)? That would seem like basically every hit. Hadn't considered that build yet, I've been wavering between:

1. Holy Shock + JotC + SoR + 1 hander, with 2 hander + SoC for conserving mana
This is my current build. I'm getting a little depressed because on hitting 51 and getting Command I seem to find the Command, while cookie cutter, seems to generate slightly better DPS on average, at a fraction of the mana cost. It allows me to spam holy shock every 30 seconds without running out of mana.

2. Holy Shield + JotC + SoR + 1 hander
This one sounds like a lot of fun, but seems like versus casters you would struggle. I currently struggle most vs. casters with my SoR build and holy shield won't help it at all.

For rogues, maybe.

Mortal Strike does a damn good job at shutting pallies down. If they want to heal effectively at all, they MUST bubble.

Explain please. I have a paladin and a warrior (no mortal strike though), but I don't understand what you mean. I rarely if ever use divine shield for anything other than to run away in fear. Which I don't do all that often.

It nukes all debuffs. Handy.

Please, allow me to bull#$%& a little. "Every hit" was a slight overstatement - though I'm certain it doesn't feel like an overstatement on the receiving end.

EDIT
And thanks, now I have to respec again to try out a more general build.

All Warrior debuffs are unclassified (or classified as physical, whichever you prefer), which means you can't dispel them.

Mortal Strike is a 50% healing debuff, which means that healing effectively and efficiently is impossible while it's still in effect. The effect lasts 10 seconds, and can't be dispelled. Rage isn't difficult to get, so it's very possible (and very common) for me to keep them permanently debuffed until they bubble

Just to throw some more oil in this:
After the respec, I'm happy with SoCmd+JoCrs.
One reason is that Seal of Command is better than it says:

Should be read as


This means +Str, +Damage%, etc do count.

At first I was thinking you were protection spec and using a one-hander, and then it would be bullI#$%&tting a lot . I was hopeful you were trying something I hadn't considered, and I think you have as a matter of fact.

Please feel free to exaggerate

It's funny, I always thought I was hitting about 50% or more with my SoR -- when I actually tested it with my 1.7 one-hander, it was just 34%.



And I may decide not to, pending the results of my math calculation to see how using my 2 hander with SoR would pan out compared to command.

Have you actually checked how much you're buying by judging Crusader and using SoC? There is a thread I read on the paladin forum which the poster's tests showed that it was just adding a flat 28 dmg per proc, which doesn't seem to justify the mana cost.

I haven't tried to verify this, I just believed it and haven't been judging crusader unless I'm going 1H with SoR.

SoC is basically the chance to deal double damage, which can potentialyl be quadruple damage (since both the physical attack and the holy effect can both crit.) A lot of people are up in arms about this (I want to cry when a fugging PALLY crits me for 1500 ), but I don't think it's all that bad. Now, if they nerf our debuffs, THEN I'll have something to say

Twenty-eight sounds about right. I wasn't keeping close track, but my experience with JotC seemed to me to be roughly thirty extra damage per Seal of Command hit. It is, at present, not worth it at all.

I have to say 34% doesn't seem right at all (Famous last words). How big of a sample are you pulling from?

And there may be other issues to consider as well; weapon skills, opposing defensive skills (being defense, parry, block, dodge), and level may all effect chance to proc. Unfortunately most of those variables are very difficult to test.

Better question; is that percentage the value of successful procs from every swing, or from every successful hit?

Really don't mean to sound like I'm trying to secondguess every observation...

That's a lie, I'm really hoping you're wrong.

That percentage is based on the formula stated above by vor_lord himself:

proc % = 1.67 * PPM * WeaponSpeed (PPM being generally accepted as 12 for SoR)

Hope this helps.

Yes, that is how I calculated it. If you are using a 3.9 speed weapon it would be much higher than 34%. I believe the formula indicates 78% for a 3.9 speed weapon (which is what I said above).

I only tested it a bit (again I can only say I saw no reason to doubt conventional wisdom, certainly my testing is not sufficient). I stopped testing because the next fight I hit the wrong button on my watch and cleared the time

For what it is worth:

74 seconds
14 procs

This comes out to (with this small data size):
11.38 PPM

Absurdly small data sample, but I lost a bit of interest seeing as it was very much within expected range and others have done these tests more rigorously.

I still would like to get some numbers on Light and Wisdom seals -- may have to try harder with them as I don't know the conventional wisdom.

Edit:

I just had an interesting thought. For the Thrash blade (2.7 speed), the proc chance for SoR is 54%. However, my guess is that the extra attacks that it gives would mean you would actually get more than 12 PPM with SoR. This logic also extends to SoC. Depends on how the code is implemented -- worth testing.

When I get mine, I will have to try it out. (I know, level 51 and haven't done ZF or Maraudon).

Comments:

That formula is taken from the blizzard boards, I assume? And who stated it as fact?

My thoughts were less a meditation upon the formula and more upon the quality of the observations (no offense), and possible factors that the formula might not take into account.

The additional attack proc on thrash doesn't go off very often, though it certainly is a nice little boost when it does.

You are correct in your assumptions (no offense taken). I do not know who has stated it as fact. I do know that it is generally accepted that SoR is 12 PPM, and SoC is 4.8 PPM. I certainly have not proved it. I would welcome any testing you might want to do, especially if you believe it to proc more often. The conventional wisdom could certainly be wrong -- it has been before.

I probably will run some more. I doubted it was that low based on my own experience, but my feeble minute+ of testing seemed to indicate that conventional wisdom seemed accurate. Haven't pursued it further (unlike D2, I am still mostly just playing the game, not analysing it).

If thrash doesn't go off very often (less than once per minute of combat?), it would probably be an exhausting task to test it with any degree of confidence. Also, the results are less interesting if the proc is rare, as it will not make a great deal of difference.

I sort of understand now. The corrupted furbolg in Felwood have a similar curse that is a pain. Divine shield does not increase the healing though, it just protects from damage. I still don't fully understand the connection. Maybe if a paladin did not have uninterruptible healing he or she might want to use divine shield so that you could not interrupt the healing spell?

Divine shield is the only way for a paladin to remove the reduced healing effect of Mortal Strike -- that's what his point was.

Well, I tried to farm Breath of Wind tonight, and there was too much competition. Instead, I tested Seal of Righteousness procs.

I got rid of the watch and just made sure I had a full 30 seconds of SoR for each monster, carefully ensuring I was in auto-attack before casting the seal and that it didn't die before 30 was up. Didn't judge, didn't cast anything else, didn't fight things that stunned if I could help it (used my HoJ to stun the gazers when they started their stun cast).

Then once the mob was dead I used the combat log to see how many procs I got.

Results for 17 mobs:
9
9
8
7
8
4
8
4
6
7
5
7
4
6
8
6
5

Totals:
111 procs
17 monsters = 8.5 min

111/8.5 = 13.06 PPM

I had a string of luck at the beginning, getting 9, 9, 8, 7, 8 before it settled down. I also had an extraordinary piece of luck vs. one of the scorpids, getting 4 crits in a row with my weapon damage. Nearly caused it to die before the 30 seconds were up. With my paltry crit rate the odds of this happening again any time soon are pretty low.

I think I'll do this a couple more times and see if it converges to 12.

Whenever someone complained on the WoW paladin forums about the "lame paladin shield" I would point out Mortal Strike as a pretty good means of overcoming those shields. Trying to explain that a paladin who had been struck mortally would have only two options: the first being trying to heal at 50% effectiveness and probably die. The other is to burn a bubble to remove the debuff. No one believed me that this was one way of evening things out.