OK so I get AB and WSG. I've seen good info on them the basics of what you should do, the basic strats and I've actually played both of them a decent amount.

AV on the other hand is a place I rarely went. It took forever to get in on Stormrage and it just wasn't all that much fun on Terenas. So I never really learned the place. Is there a web resource (or can Lurkers produce one) that will give me a better idea of the place? Currently I get in there and I just follow the biggest pack of players either on offense or on defense. I'll help capture objectives if I'm near them. But I know there are a lot of quests you can pick up (seen a few of the quest givers) and some other stuff that that a noob to AV should generally try to get done.

My goals are pretty simple. I just want to hit honored rep with my hunter to have access to the arrows. If I find I like PvP more with the short queue times that may change, but I'm just looking to not be as lost in there as I generally am.

There is one quest, to recover the banner which is in the harpies-infested cave, which yields the first Stormpike trinket, from the Alliance point of view. Probably similiar from the Frostwolf point of view. This trinket lets you teleport back to your starting area, which can be useful for getting back from the front line to turn in items, or help defend your general.

I heard they moved the questgiver who gives you the quest for winning AV, but I am not sure where he lives now.

Traditionally the way to win AV is to get a sizable force past the other side, while having enough defending to stop them from getting through you. This forward strike force takes out their camp's towers or bunkers; once this is done, you pull the NPCs out of their general's bunker one at a time, kill them, and then once they're all down, you have free reign to go in and kill their general.

Sometimes AVs turn into races - both sides have all their people on strike, they passed each other, so it's a race to see who can kill the other side's general first. I find these kinds of battles dissatisfying, not least because you get no HKs for it, and you need at least 25-ish HKs to qualify for a week's rating.

Graveyard ninja captures are common. One person pulls the NPCs off and kites them, another goes in and captures the graveyard. This prevents the opposition from respawning at that graveyard. However, you can't really keep the graveyard if there're any enemies nearby to recapture it, unless you kill the NPCs and guard the graveyard, and the enemy has about five minutes to recapture it.

The intermediary graveyard between the two sides, Snowfall, is generally more of a distraction than actually useful.

No one seems to bother doing the turn-ins to summon their side's god anymore, or their griffin riders, but if you hear that the other side is summoning their god, it's probably a good idea to find their summoning site - it'll be on their side of the middle field - and interrupt the summoners, ideally kill them off. Since it takes ten players to perform the summon, you probably want a decent number of people with you.

There are some quests in your base, and one in tower point . There are a few other quests in your tunnel if you go to the actual BG. Each quest is 100 rep, I believe and a decent chunk of XP/gold. Ignore the battle until those quests are done. Ignore the riders and mine quests. Do the gnoll cave one first, it lets you warp back to base to turn in blood/armor/flesh. If you are after rep, it can be a lot of rep right there.

Races are far and away the best way to get rep/honor. Bypass the other sides captain and don't dismount until FW/SP. If you are an ally, consider bypassing FW and heading straight for the last GY. If you are horde, you need to stop and hold the second to last GY.

Because of the way the bases are laid out, the alliance now have a significant advantage. If they get much ahead of you, double back for belinda, then guard your captain. Your captain gives you 125 rep at the end of the battle if he lives, even if you lose. Even if you are losing, often the blood/armor NPC's will still be up. Make sure to warp in and turn those in. The flesh ones are much less likely to live through an assult on the general.

If you do get to the general before the allies, make sure to pull the marshals out one at a time. They have a viscious cleave that can wipe most of a raid if they are not controlled. They can be safely pulled out of the fortress. The general will not leave the fortress, and will regen all his health if you try to take him out. Make sure the tank has a second or two to get aggro before DPS goes in, if possible. A frequent and frusterating experience is for a mage to pull aggro, then blink out of the room, reseting the general.

Don't bother with the gods, one way or another. They take 10 min to start moving, and even longer to get to the end of the base. They don't even attack the general unless the other side makes the mistake of kiting him to them.

There is also a quest given by a tower guard (forget which one, I think the northmost). Get it early before he dies.

Edit: Also as a hunter you probably want to get exaulted for the ring. It's not that hard anymore with near insta-que. I think you may change your mind about how fun the place is. It feels tailor made for hunters with perfect terrain and objectives to snipe other players and NPCs.

Quests (outside, near the world instance portal in Alterac)
1) the win AV quest
2) The Banner quest for trinket (this quest is a pure PvE quest that takes place inside AV)
3) The Capture a GY quest
4) the Destroy a tower quest
5) the cap a mine quest

(Inside)
1) Kill one of the brothers quest (This is Tower point guy for Horde and probably Icewing for Alliance). Get this one first thing, because he won't last forever.
2) Coldtooth supplies
3) Irondeep supplies
4) the gather wolves (H) / rams (A) quest (for horde this is east of FW GY and maybe a little south. Outside of town)
5) the gather ram (H) / wolf (A) hides quest (same location)
6) Turn in soldier flesh ( Guse must be rescued to turn these in, I think she collects 25 then can launch air attack) Guse is in Icewing bunker I think
7) Turn in lieutenant flesh ( Jeztor must be rescued, etc...) Jeztor is on the ground in a room near the lumber mill, which is east of the road between SH GY and SP GY
8) Turn in Commander flesh ( Mulverick must be rescued, etc...) Mulverick is in one of the bunkers in the alliance town, I think the North one.
flesh quest people, if rescued, hang out directly across from Drek's room where there are bats hanging and such.
9) Turn in 20 armor scraps (blacksmith)
10) Turn in blood / gallon of blood (cave near blacksmith

2 - 10 here are repeatable and minimal rep, from 1-5 per turn in.

Somewhere is a quest to rescue each of the three air attack people, but I forget where that one comes from.
Each of the air attack people will give a quest to plant a becon in the field of strife when they get enough flesh. The craters are right in the middle of the field of strife. I have only been able to actually get that quest once in AV (with 1 exalted, 2 revered and 1 honored char) since I'm usually not the last one to turn in flesh, so you probably don't have to worry too much about that one.

The Flightmaster quest comes from Jotek, who's right inside Frostwolf Village. He's pretty hard to miss, since he's right next to the path. I don't know where the equivalent quest comes from for the Alliance scum.

If you're playing a class capable of it, I'd give tanking a try. It's surprisingly fun, since you have a variable amount of people whaling away on what you're tanking, with Allies busily running in and dying horrifically while trying to disrupt your attempts

Another thing: Horde must defend if you're against an Alliance group that's at all competent. Because AV's geography favors Alliance (Horde have no Bridge of Death™, the Allies can easily bypass a large percentage of Frostwolf NPCs, and a lot of Dun Baldar's NPCs are right on top of the Aid Station flag), Horde generally can't win a straight-out race against an Alliance group with similar composition (in terms of class balance and gear.) Ten competent defenders can easily delay an Alliance offensive group long enough for a victory, particularly if the Allies skip Iceblood GY (or leave it mostly undefended after tapping it.) If they don't have IBGY, you can trap them at FWGY between IBGY and the Relief Hut. Pay special attention to getting your towers back as often as possible, and make sure that your offense is taking care of the Alliance towers on their rampage up north; this deprives the Allies of Marshals and increases the number of Warmasters you'll have in Drek's room, and I've seen dozens of games decided based on how aggressively towers were attacked and defended.

Allies can probably get away with fewer than ten defenders due to NPCs being all over the place on the Aid Station flag (including multiple elites with obscene HP) and a natural chokepoint on the bridge.

Yeah I've been playing one of the defenders that goes to iceblood right away. Alliance wants to kill Galv and you can keep them from doing that or capping the GY pretty will with just 10. There was one game I was in where they never got IB and never even got in to see Drek. I still don't feel I'm all that great playing D, but an MC geared hunter can do a lot to mess up a charge. And since I have an L60 paladin I know that all you do is suck their mana then laugh at them or interrupt them when they cast and laugh at them (the bubble is a holy spell, stop a cast and you have 6 seconds where they can't bubble. Most pallies only have 5K mana in the BGs, even a hunter can suck 800 or so of that in that time they've been interrupted while dishing out a few K damage, that forces them to self heal or risk dying. Even if they clear the sting you took 95 or 120 of their mana depending on if they have the relic). A manaless paladin is the most harmless thing on the battle ground. Wands from manaless casters are more dangerous.

But yeah the AV's where we play D we horde wins. And I do agree that even after you lose iceblood that going straight back to defend Drek isn't the best. You can't defend anything else really but all you want to do is slow them down, and you'll end up pinned at the aid station soon enough but still slowing them down. We lost Iceblood and still kept them off Drekk for another 8 to 10 minutes which was plenty of time to get those little bastard friends pulled away from Van.

The easiest way to get a PuG to play D is to just have a few people say they are going on D. You'll get a few others to follow and then you'll win if you are horde unless you are playing against a team. But a horde PuG that plays D seems to win and I've started taking in some of the AV bandages since I can often sneak off when I'm down to a few hundred HP and getting in a few more multishots or getting another trap down or even one sniped aimed shot before I eventually get killed can help a lot.

But yeah this thread helped. I'm still not the biggest fan of PvP, but at least I don't feel I'm a detriment to AV teams anymore from lack of knowledge. But you guys provided pretty much what I was looking for.

In my experience Horde have two strong defensive positions:
1) Iceblood GY / Galv
2) Frostwolf Towers / the hill

Alliance have 3 strong defensive positions and they are all crammed together:
1) the bend right before Stormpike GY
2) The bridge
3) The aid station with all the NPCs near it

That could easily be considered 2 with the Aid station and bridge considered 1 point.

The alliance advantage comes from the fact that if Horde doesn't flip SP before Alliance flips IB, horde will usually lose. Generally enough alliance will come back to base after flipping IB that defense at SP can continue indefinitely.

After playing through Exalted with a rogue and warrior, and having played my rogue pretty extensively after exalted too, I have to say that a hunter on D is truly formidable. The Frost trap (not freeze trap) is one of the most powerful tools there is for Defense. Rogues and druids can't stealth past it, and warriors are basically forced to trinket or intercept just to close distance initially, which leaves them few options for closing distance again if they get a nova, crip poison or somethign like that once they get there.

With support from other classes acting like normal PUG AV players, 2-3 hunters can literally stop an offnesive push in it's tracks by alternating between flopping / frost trapping and standing back for PEW PEW action.

Oh yeah I frost trap all the time and put up flares on rogue/druid approach paths that the trap won't hit. And yeah the pew pew damage that a few hunters can put out is NUTS. But I still don't feel I'm a good defensive player. Of course that is why I'm playing it more. To get better.

Not if I'm there, you can't...

Most Alliance groups skip Galv and IB. It's very possible to simply run right past that area and slam into Frostwolf, since Horde doesn't have a natural bottleneck point (Horde can run above the SP bottleneck, but that's also running right into the path of the Allies' cave rez point) at FW. 35 attacking Allies can kill, CC, or otherwise ignore 10 Horde defenders long enough to start capping FW GY. Allies that go for IB and Galv, in my experience, have a record of losing one hundred percent of the time, regardless of how many tier2 PvE guildies they have on their side.

The bottom line is simple. AV is mostly Alliance territory, just like AB and WSG are Horde, although WSG really should be even. 10 Alliance on semi-organized D and it's gg Horde. Bridge and First Aid are veeeery difficult to take for Horde.

-A

Not really. Not now.

The bridge and the hill are pretty much the same. 2 hunters can eliminate both towers in about 2 minutes. The captain and the flag can wait. With the towers under control, it is not difficult to pull the NPC's to their death, then crush the aid station.

The huge difference is not one of difficulty, but speed. 30 decent allies can stop briefly at FW to cap, then rush straight to the last flag. Most of the horde NPC's will either ignore them or leash back to the front of the base. 30 decent horde players need to carefully pull NPC's while SP caps. Once SP has turned, you can zerg the remainder down. So its about a 5 min difference, which is pretty big when games are averaging about 20 min.

I spend on the average about 5-6 games/day in AV. With a 10 man D, we can hold down the Horde through multiple Drek resets (well, not 10, but 2-3) or 4 WMs running around multiple times (due to horrible Alliance pulling, which is semi-typical)... pretty much almost indefinately. The only thing that might be different between our Battlegroup and yours is that in ours, only 2-3 servers are older, so not too many ppl are running around with big-ass epics.

I suppose ymmv.

-A

It's not the epics. If it's 30 on 10, if they can't push you most of the way across the bridge, they are idiots. At that point they can open fire on your archers. Once the towers are suppressed (not necessairly capped) it is very easy to start pulling NPC's back to the SP GY. At that point 30 monkeys randomly banging keys can cap the aid station. With the aid station tapped and SP capped, you can take the towers no problem, if you haven't already.

My guess is that you are playing mental defectives who are trying to cap the aid station despite 5-8 elite NPC's with 25k-50k each. All it takes is a little cross healing and somebody interrupting the flag tap every 10 sec?

If they can't push into your base 30v10, there is something wrong with them. It should take 5-10 more min then it would take for the Alliance to do it, but it should be very doable.

Well, with so many different people to play against, I doubt that *all* of them are mental defects. Don't forget that pushing through a relatively narrow path is pretty difficult even when you are outnumbering the D 3-1. It evens the odds as only a few of the attackers can participate at the same time, but the defenders all can. This has actually been the case in RL military history too. When you outnumber the enemy, you try to spread the field of battle as wide as you can. Here however, they have no choice. Also, when they die, they have a longer trek to get to the end of the bridge than we do to get to the beginning. Now, when we can no longer rez at Aid station, then the Defense is pretty much done, but it takes a long time to get to that point.

-A

I wouldn't overestimate people, especially people who are pretty new to PvP. Most PvPers I know get exaulted and get out. That leaves relatively few decent players around. And they don't have to all be morons for things not to work out. It can be a mix of morons, good players who don't feel like leading, people going ZOMG need HK, and people who are botting in a corner.

The thing about warcraft is, without any clipping, all the attackers can (and should) be engaged at the same time. If you are facing people who are lining up and waiting their turn on the bridge.... they just might all be mentally defective.

I remember my first time defending in AV. The Horde was preparing to charge; they had a dozen or two people mounted up on the far side. They came charging across the bridge while I was on it, and I instinctively turned around and ran - the sight of the charging wolves and kodo was a powerful psychological force. It took a few minutes before I realized "Wait a minute! Those are just sprites I can walk through as easily as I do in the AH!"

It's interesting how large groups of players have no real ability to "push" a line of defenders back, but that battle lines weave and move anyway, due to natural human tendencies!

Well, I'm sure some of them are not rocket scientists. However, how do you explain that Horde usually wins AB and even WSG in the same Battle Group? IMO, at least AB requires more brains than AV. How is it that the same people that win AB and WSG (and I see some of the same names in all 3 BGs, although I've almost completely stopped doing WSG) lose in AV? Serious PVP'ers who are trying to rank up stay in AV almost exlusively as the Honor there far surpasses the other 2, even on Bonus weekends. Yes, there's many new players there, but the bulk I find in AV are lvl 60s these days. Grinding to exalted is nothing these days, so it's not "get to exalted and then out". I think it's the layout. Also, generally Alliance is aweful in the BGs, except here....


-A

AB favors Alliance. The path from the Arathor base to the Stables flag is shorter than the path from the Defilers base to the Farm flag, and Paladins and their immunity bubbles can hold solo-hold a node longer than any other class in the game.

WSG slightly favors Horde. The Horde base has a little better visibility than the Alliance base. Both bases have sneaky hiding spots involving clipping. Horde can pit stupid Allies in a ditch behind a giant tree south of the Alliance exit portal.

I disagree on AB. The trick to AB is not ST/Farm. It is controlling BS. I believe Horde has a shorter track to it. In my games (and it's been a lot of games lately), Horde gets to BS about 2 seconds before Alliance, and they usually end up controlling it about 80-85% of the time. Coincidentally (or not) they end up winning almost all of those games. BS is the most important node as it is in the middle and raised, and gives you almost a bird's eye view of the whole battlefield, so you can call INC for ST, LM and Farm from one side and Mine/ST/Farm from the other. Yesterday, we actually won one and did it by controlling BS. Afer we grabbed it, my game consisted of Shadowmeld/INC 4 LM/INC 5 BS-->Charge/INC many Farm etc etc etc. Easy win. Controlling BS is almost having an unfair advantage.

WSG, meh.... Alliance sucks at sticking together. If they did not, the tiny advantage that the Horde has would be nothing. The trick to WSG is NO DEFENSE!!! It should go like this.... All 10 go to Flag sticking close to one another. Ignore almost everything. Grab flag. All 10 go through the middle carrying the flag. On the way, kill everything on the way, and only ON THE WAY (ala Blitzkrieg), including the eventual enemy flag carrier for whom you can go out of your way, again as a team. As long as you stick together, you don't need any D (actually you don't WANT any D) and you can roll up any other team. I've had 2 occasions when this was illustrated well. I went through a nice stretch of getting into a game with a PVP guild, and it was 9 of them and me. We won 18 games in a row within maybe 3 hours. All but 1 were 3 caps. The one close game was against another guild team and they did pretty much the same. The other one was even better. I got into a PUG and we rolled up somewhere around 25 in a row also within 3-4 hours. All of the games were the same, as described above. Alas, this was before cross-realms, so now that would be impossible. Anyway, Defense is not for WSG if played properly. Of course, generally Alliance chases HKs and pretty much runs around aimlessly.


-A

Well the reason these games are good is that there are a variety of winning stratagies.

In AB, a 3 base including the BS is a tough nut to crack. However a 2 second lead is nothing - one the inital capper gets disrupted (and he should if you are making a serious attempt at the BS) it's an even game. And it is very possible to overplay the BS and have your home base capped, which usually starts a chase around the ring.

In WSG, an all out rush is very possible to counter with an 8 man D.

Well, 2 seconds is something if it's backed up by enough people.

As far as WSG, if there's 8 ppl on D, the game lasts forever. Neither side usually wants that. A turtle in AV at least nets nice Honor. In WSG it's just a waste of time. Besides, there's rushes and there's rushes. A controlled rush as I described is very difficult to counter and can only be done by an experienced team... and usually experienced teams want to end WSG ASAP.

-A

No. Assuming 7-10 vs 7-10 (minus 1 because one person is capping) there is zero chance that competent players can't get a single attack off in 8 sec. Then the mayhem ensues. I have mount equip, so it is impossible to move faster then me (I fully conceed that the horde have about a 2 second lead to the flag), and I can not remember a single time 5 people couldn't disrupt an inital tap at the BS.



Well there is defense and there is defense. 8 is enough to blunt the attack and probably hold them off the flag given the proximity of the GY. Then you ride out and meet up with your scoundrles who have made off with the flag, hopefully inbetween res pulses.

For a pretty good team playing not a very good team, your strat is probably best. If you really are trying to finish fast, you probably want to leave a couple behind to at least track the other side if they take off with your flag. On the return trip part of your O can peel off and head directly for your flag.

The point is an all out attack, while a viable strat especially against semi organized groups, is not the be all end all. WSG would be rather boring if it was.

If you have 10 ppl all going for the BS cap, then if one team gets a 2 sec head start, it means that they can all be there while the opposing team is still arriving. This means that let's say 8 (there's always those who lag a bit) of you can hit the 5 incoming that are already there. This is enough given equal teams to win the battle beforehand. The only way to counteact that is to have all 10 move at the same exact time and that, given a less than a real good team is simply not gonna happen.

As far as WSG, I'm sorry but my rather extensive WSG experience suggests otherwise. I simply do not see any weaknesses in an all out organized zerg, in theory and in practice. When you split up your team in any way, you lose against a team that sticks together.

YMMV, I suppose.


-A

This is getting circular.

A two second headstart means one thing - if the horde wants it they can start the tap first. If there are a reasonable number of allies there, it is impossible to CC them all and preserve that first tap. A hunter can dismount 40yd out and arcane shot, a warrior can get off 25yd out and charge. Once the first tap is disrupted, that 2 second lead has been negated and it is open warfare. I have played my share of AB and gone blacksmith any number of times. I have never gotten that first tap off in a competitive game.

As far as your organized zerg goes.... that's why I wish they'd put in matchmaking. Saying that one strat is the best is like saying a huntress charge is the best in WC3. If you are playing random opponents, its a pretty good strat that will win you enough games to where you think its the only wining strat. It's not until you get to level 12 or so that it stops working enough that you have to be ready to react, and change if need be. Zerging huntresses or zerging the flag are still good strats, the part I object to is where you make it sound like the only possible rational strat, and anybody who doesn't do it is a moron.

AB - "I admit the terrain favors horde through the LM,BS,farm trinity that is easily defendable because the LM road leads directly into the BS and farm. If the mine were the same then it would be fully balanced. " Quote from a WoW thread from today. Add this to the posts above and I have nothing more to add.


WSG - I did not say Zerg is the only way to win. I said it is the most efficient and fastest way to win. If I want long epic battles with 400 HKs, I will go to AV. WSG, with it's horrible Rep setup, should be finished fast. Your way provies for an uncertain outcome, that takes too long to achieve. 45 min WSG is not my idea of fun. If it's yours, enjoy.

-A

Rushing with ten people in Warsong will result in a loss if you're playing against a competent team, nine times out of ten. It might work if you're playing against PUGs, but how likely is it that all ten of your teammates are going to follow you to the flagroom and not stop and farm HKs midfield or AFK bot in the graveyard?

I've found the most success with a three-team split, with two dedicated defenders (we've found that a Shaman and Entrapment Hunter work very well, with the Shaman dispelling Blessing of Freedom and other flagcarrier buffs and both being capable of snaring from a fair distance as well as both being reasonably hard to kill), three dedicated attackers, and the remaining five playing the midfield and supporting offense or defense where necessary. It's not an automatic win, but it's easily mutable to meet the opposition, which is probably why we've seen a lot of success with it. If the enemy is defending hard (e.g. they're going to try to ninja the flag), the midfielders can move up to aid the offensive team and then cover them on the way back to our base. If the enemy is focusing on all-out offense, our eight will often be enough to counter their eight, nine, or even ten long enough for our flagcarrier to reach our flag, and our two dedicated defenders prevent any last-second ninja attempts. Furthermore, our flagcarriers carry multiple gearsets; if we find that our opposition tends to favor ZHC Pyroblasts, you can bet we'll be using a Warrior wearing Dark Iron and a Flame Reflector. We'll use Darkrune against teams with lots of Warlocks and Shadow Priests, Armor-stacking Bears against teams with lots of Rogues, and so on. In short, we've found that adapting to our opposition and exploiting their weaknesses works best

Who said that? If it's a blue, provide a link. If it's not, I see no reason why sitting at the crossroads bridge area between stables-mine-BS is substantially worse then sitting at farm-LM-BS.

Besides, that's not what you have been trying to argue all this time.

Sitting at the stables-mine-BS crossroads lets you reach any of those nodes pretty much as easily as sitting at farm-mill-BS crossroads. However once things start moving, and your defense force starts having to run back and forth to deal with attacks (assuming a well-coordinated attack team that isn't running around helter-skelter PUG-style), it becomes a bit different. Take the mine-BS vs mill-BS travel time. Say your defensive force has to run down to the mine to defend it. It has a much less direct route to take back to the BS, compared to riding from the mill to the BS. Plus slowfall/noggenfogger float/parachute cape lets someone get from the mill to BS quickly as well to reinforce. Same applies to assaults on the mine... at the LM if necessary you can CC/choke them off at the two ramps leading up to slow them down and buy time for more reinforcements to arrive, whereas attackers on the mine have the liberty of jumping down the edge to the flag if needed. And of course there's the visibility advantage of being at the mill--you can pretty much see where everyone is.

IMO, AV tactics has always been about keeping a piercing howl warrior alive. Just slow the opposing meat wall, and they'll back up. Especially at Dun Baldar. Don't stop at bridge. Just mount and go for AS and beyond. There, you unmount and spam PH for all you're worth, healer or not. 95% of the AV goers think staying alive is the most important part of AV...

If the mill is so painfully, obviously superior to the mines in every conceivably possible way, why aren't you taking it instead of going for mines?

I've always argued for this, just to keep the mill out of horde hands. Nobody else seems to ever agree with me. Though the stables-smith-mill defense is harder to run as there is no common crossroads. The other thing that makes this difficult to pull off on the opening rush is if they see the larger crowd going to mill vs bs, it's very easy for them to shift forces from BS to mill, or vice-versa

In any PuG game though, 9/10 I'll be heading to the mill.

Alright there are quite a few BG mods out there that track stuff. I've played with a few. I'd like opinions of what people use and why.

I'm also curious about this. I thought about getting one like BGInfo or something similar, but then it struck me. Really, the only thing I really need to know is whether or not my team controls a flag. There have been times, mostly in AV, when it would be nice to know how much longer until a node turns, but the reality is that I'm not moving until it does.

Do these mods offer any information that people find really useful?

Are you kidding? This favors alliance so much it's not even funny. Three words: Blessing of Freedom. You can say all you like about how this should be purged or whatever. But in in match where seconds of free running is more often than not the difference between winning and losing this a HUGE game breaker.

If you're going to play that card: Earthbind totem.

Dispellable by anybody nearby, unlike Blessing of Freedom

Still takes time to stop and kill the totem just like Blessing of Freedom takes time to purge/dispel.

Yes. My point was that ANYBODY can do it, or it can just be moved out of range of. Unlike BoF, which is removable by exactly two classes

I find that flag timers are very helpful in both AV and AB. In AB seconds count, if you can depart early from a node you know will cap it helps. Also, it helps stratagise - there are times if you have 30 seconds to retake a node the other side is capping you might be able to do it, then get reinforced by the res pulse. If on the other hand there are only 10 seconds left, you will probably be facing their ressers, and should take off for another node. In AV it helps to know how long you have to get back and reclaim things that ninjas have stolen.

I use TitanBG, I think it is called.

Not exactly two classes. Last I checked a player with Blessing of Freedom was still cc'able.

Personally I'd consider Frost Shock to be more dangerous. Earthbind Totem is eclipsed by an Entrapment Hunter using Frost Trap. Frost Shock lasts eight seconds, can cause significant Frost damage, and has a fairly decent 20-yard range. Even if it's dispelled, it can last long enough for a Warrior to get into melee range, at which point Hamstring and Piercing Howl spam will take over. If they've got Blessing of Freedom on, the Shaman that just hit them with Frost Shock can quite easily Purge it off, along with any other buffs (such as Power Word: Shield and Power Word: Fortitude...)

Come to think of it... I'd say Purge is more powerful than Frost Shock.

I use the flag monitor BGFlag. Here is a fixed version.
http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/addons-...rrected-19.html

As a Priest, not only do I benefit from knowing who the flag carrier is, I can also target them and cast Mind Vision with the click of a mouse.

Doesn't remove the buff, though, does it? Which is what I said. If it does, then you can have your pedantry points. ;-)

What I'm trying to say is that blessing of freedom is hardly "game breaking" as Sir Die claims. No one whines about polymorph in PvP, nor that druids can shapechange out of just about everything, or a rogue can sap, etc. All you hear is whining about Paladins - so much that Blizzard finally had to add them to the Horde.

After becoming exhalted AV in a week of hectic activity, Spangles, NE warr, rarely deviates from this general routine:

Ride as quickly as possible to Snowfall, take the graveyard, defend SF if necessary (usually not) till backup arrives.

Clear all the towers and graveyards along the shortest route to Drek.

Pull the warmasters and dogs, tank the warmasters outside.

Tank Drek inside the bastion until game won.

This takes 20 - 40 minutes, depending on intensity of Horde defense at the graveyards. (The only loss I experienced is when the Horde called out their god and dragged him into the Alliance bastion, which was very funny.)

The only other game that wasn't a win was a two-hour series of HK battles, scattered across the map. This seemed much more like what an evenhanded game should be. Unfortunately, I had to leave before the battle ended. I have not seen another battle like it since.

I can only conclude that the Alliance stronghold is much easier to defend than Drek's bastion, because Alliance always wins the games I play. Either Horde don't fill their raids (I haven't been checking the roster) or this BG is seriously broken. I wouldn't play it if I were Horde.

(My emphasis.)
The benefits of playing in a premade group I guess. If I leave a flag roughly 90% of the time everyone else does as well - unless it's the stables - so I usually cap a node and park.

You've reminded me of something that I was wanting the other day: a mod that tracked res. pulses. That would be incredibly handy. So good that it almost seems like it would be a cheat.

PS. Purge is incredibly powerful when you're trying to return a flag before it gets across midfield.

If only alliance/horde had polymorph people would whine something fierce and rightfully so. This is an extremely powerful spell but both sides get use of it. I have seen people complain about chain polymorph, they just don't cry faction imbalance. Druid shapeshifting I think less so, but yes that too.

I am not speaking in terms of all bgs either, just WSG. For AV/AB this doesn't make near the impact it does in WSG since the WSG PvP objective is completely different from the AV and AB one. This spell renders you immune to all snares and stuns for a realitively long time, and removes any that are on you at the time (just that alone would be huge in WSG). Yes CC can stop someone who has it on but I don't know of a CC that works when a player takes damage. It can be removed but requires certain classes to be present, in range, and aware of the cast to do so. Give me a faction ability the horde has that comes close to being this useful in an event where the entire goal is to walk from one side of the field to the other. Simply no faction ability aids this basic strategy of WSG like BoF does.

It's not seriously broken. The alliance have about a 5 min advantage during race type games (anything less then an hour) because they have NPC's that defend their last GY and the door to their general. 5 min is a decent advantage, but not insurmountable. I don't know what is the matter with the horde in your BG. Even so, there is not a huge gap in rep between winning and losing. Even losing all the time, it is still relativly easy purples.