Warrior Talents

They've updated warrior talents and made Tatical Mastery Trained. (lvl 20, retain upto 10 rage)

This thread has some details of all the changes.

Including an assume quote from Kalgan on Page 2.

These were necessary, not overwhelming. Better than nothing, though.

-A

Incoming MS + Flurry builds!

Or several other nice options. I think Flurry is superior to Improved MS for PVE though.

I'm not sure what build I'll use with my warrior.

Umm... wow... hell hath frozen over.

Aside from MS / Flurry + TM these changes bring the re-emergence of the Arms / Prot hybrid build:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...033000000000000

Previously getting blood frenzy meant 40 points in Arms, which severely limits what you can get in protection. Moving that up so you can get it with 33 points makes it much more viable.

While the 1H spec / Bloodthirst / Flurry build will likely be better single target damage for the warrior, this gives a little more overall raid utility with blood frenzy and improved thunderclap, and the +4 weapon skill should be a decent boost to put it reasonably close to the Fury / prot on single target damage.

Also, related but not directly....

Elitist Jerks forums are reporting that Windfury totem procs will be yellow damage in TBC (no rage gain).

Some interesting changes, and I'm definitely glad to see Improved Bloodrage at the beginning of the Protection tree (allowing you to scoop up TM for the full 25 for your first five points, instead of Anticipation which is largely useless in PvP.) Some other minor tweaks to the Protection tree, though I'm still flabbergasted at why Improved Shield Wall still hasn't been improved, especially in light of Improved Disciplines in the Arms tree (which is superior in every possible way.)

That said, I'm still sticking fairly close to my projected PvP build, though I'm now taking Vitality instead of other talents, since it now conveys a hefty 10% boost to Strength along with the 5% boost to Stamina (though I'd rather it be the other way around, being a cow; +10% STA on top of +5% TotalHP would be just plain sick), which will serve to increase staying power, melee attack power, and Shield Slam damage (since the STR bonus would increase Block value by a small amount.) Something tells me it's going to be quite lovely to chain together a couple of 9 Rage Sunders followed by a dazing, silencing 7 Rage Shield Bash followed up by a 9 Rage Heroic Strike

This, of course, assumes that the Improvement talents for the various attack abilities will stack with Focused Rage, which I'd think is an extremely potent combination. If they do stack (like I'd assume they will), it may well be an effective solution to the Protection build's problem of generating sufficient Rage in PvP (when not being pounded on by several people at once, at any rate.)

Remember that blood frenzy now says *your* melee damage is increased by 4%, not everyone's.

So, still nice for single target DPS, but not the massive rogue-booster it was before.

Plus, I think I'd build the arms prot hybrid a little differently, maybe more like this:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...030000000000000

I think 15% extra rage would help make up for the cheaper sunders, and would get better as you gear up. The 10% armour is a blow, for sure, but hey, I likes my DPS.

-Jester

Don't have the link but a blue said that it is ALL damage not just yours, that it was a typo on the calc

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...420653&sid=1#17

"A couple quick corrections...

- Blood Frenzy is actually still a debuff on the target that now adds 2%/4% to melee damage done to the target (the current tooltip in the talent calculator makes it sound like it only increses your damage).

- Endless Rage now increases rage generated when you deal damage by 25% (but does not increase rage generated by taking damage)."

-Kalgan

Yeah, and all the top-end fought the "warriors scale too well" arguments with "we're cooldown limited at those gear-levels, not rage limited!" God forbid warriors be limited in any way, huh?

They are wrong. Only the self-weapon buff is yellow damage now.

Well, there we are. I stand corrected by the corrections.

Makes the tree seem even more tempting to me, and I'm already planning on going 41 deep in it. 25% more rage from dealing damage is probably better than 15/15, and only gets better and better as you gear up in the endgame, decreasing damage taken, and increasing damage given.

-Jester

We have nothing at range stronger than a bowshot, except for charge/intercept, which have long cooldowns and combat restrictions. A warrior at range is a dead warrior, or at least a useless one.

Our two spell interrupts both require melee range to use.

We have neither prevention nor cure for any kind of CC, from any class.

We can't heal, except for bandages.

We can't decurse, cure diseases, cure poisions, clear magic debuffs, etc...

We can't stealth or vanish.

We have very little CC of our own.

Warriors might be damn powerful at high-end gearing, but we've got strong limits that blizzard has done nothing to diminish. Warriors remain the most supportable class, but also the class most in need of support.

-Jester

Haven't you seen the new spell reflect skill? That should take care of a lot of your range and cc concerns.

I think you're talking about PvP arguments, and Quark is more talking from a PvE raid damage perspective.

Having done pretty extensive PvP with both rogue and warrior (rank 10 rogue and rank 8 warrior) I think your assessment is very correct from that standpoint. My warrior gets downright owned in short order against most classes 1v1 he needs support to survive, even with a "PvP spec". My rogue, on the other hand, started the PvP rank grind in mostly green gear and thrash blade. With a hemo spec I could take on some classes better than my warrior in half purples ever could think of. As the rogue's gear improved, he just got better and better. I feel confident in being able to kill most classes 1 on 1 unless they're extremely well geared.

From the PvE side, it looks as if they are bringing arms up to be more in line with Fury. The bottm of the arms tree is nice, but Flurry is incredibly attractive. What really pushed warrior DPS through the roof in the original game was gear the game wasn't originally designed for. Gear will not be so out of control in the expansion unless they get caught up in significant mudflation again. There is also some rage normalization in place to guard against this. They're aware of the warrior PvE DPS "issue".

Warriors will still do decent PvE DPS, but I don't expect to see it quite as significant as it is now. Especially because of the potential need for warriors to spec hybrid rather than pure DPS because of the 25 person cap forcing more hybridization. There isn't going to be as much room for pure DPS warriors.

I'm sure quark also noticed a couple REALLY nice changes in the rogue trees too. The especially nice one is the addition of a talent that has a chance to gain back energy every off-hand hit. This finally brings gear scaling to energy (%hit, very fast off-hand weapons), so rogues will start seeing synergistic effects in the way that warriors do (stats help damage and help energy that helps damage).

I don't think rogues have too much to worry about in the PvE DPS department Quark.

Given that most Warriors do not use a shield in PvP, it takes about 2 seconds to actually activate Spell Reflect (switch to the right stance, switch to shield - 1.5 sec global cooldown, activate skill). Most CC is either instant, or has 1.5 second cast. In addition it also requires a big chunk of rage, cannot be used against AOE spells or the projectiles already in the air, and now has a cooldown as well. So no, it won't really take care of range or CC concerns. It is one of those skills that looks great on paper, but really lacks when it comes to actual performance.

Er, fear?

Pfft, One is not "a couple". Half of the new Combat talents (in total talent points spent, not individual talents -> that rate is much worse) being awful is still half. Combat Potency is a nice, unique, skill. Whether or not it is good enough remains to be seen, and it certainly doesn't make up for me not being able to decide where to spend about 9 points in Combat because I don't want to get any of the available choices.

Yes, this applies even with the new Vitality they just announced today (2%/4% Sta, 1%/2% Agi now). 8 more Agi at my gear level is a ripoff.


I do. Early reports have Hunters kicking much Rogue butt in the DPS department, Warriors beating them (before yesterday's changes), and haven't seen anything on Mages but they were already equal to Rogues and got many, many more +damage% talents than Rogues did.

And every day Blizzard releases one minor change for Rogues while some other class got a complete overhaul I'm getting more angry. Seriously, stop with the stupid games and trying to lull us into sleep with tiny changes hoping we won't notice just how minor they are while everyone else is going up in leaps and bounds.

I'd like to see where those reports coming from, because from what I've seen, rogues are even better in DPS department on Beta, and considering that there are no DPS meters, I would be highly critical of any such "damage comparisons". Sounds to me like you read Wow Rogue forums too much

Don't worry, I am sure that we will see many more rogue changes as Blizzard monitors their performance in Beta in both PvP and PvE. They took some steps today, and I am sure there are many more to come, as they continue to work out what exactly they want to see in Rogue class.

Rogue itemisation looks better with large numbers of AP/Agi items. AP won't scale with buffs or talents but starting with 2 AP instead of 1 from STR for the same item budget has to be a good thing - effectively getting the Druid AP formula while keeping Dual Wield and a sensible attack speed. I do think Rogues could still use some mobility improvements relative to Warriors - Warriors may have trouble with kiting classes but intercept's cooldown is a lot lower than Sprint and they now can get 10% health back whenever someone roots or stuns them to escape melee.

Hunters do seem very strong indeed. I'm not sure how much this has changed - I've always been very impressed with competent Hunter DPS outside raid instances (where the pet is ineffective).

Fair enough. Given the right stance, or the right spec, a warrior has one, maybe two, answers to fear. Not tremendously good answers, but it works out well enough.

-Jester

The warrior changes yesterday did nothing that will help raiding "DPS warriors" They wouldn't be getting top end arms talents anyway. The changes bring arms warriors more in-line with fury warriors and to make the bottom fury talents worth taking over going fury / prot and getting 1H spec. The utility talent blood frenzy is easier to get in a hybrid, which should make you happy, as rogues and hunters will be the primary beneficiaries.

Just as you discount the damage added to the bottom end of the assassination and subtlety trees as useless because an "ideal" raiding spec will be combat, the bottom of the arms tree can be equally discounted. The changes made are incredibly PvP oriented, few warriors are seriously talking about 41+ arms as a raiding or even a hybrid raiding spec. Most talents practical in arms for raiding will be ~33 points IMO. This gives decent DPS and room for your important protection talents.

Just as happened with the rogue trees, the damage added here brings the non-raid DPS tree more in line with the raid DPS tree. Do not confuse this with adding warrior DPS to a raiding DPS spec, because it won't.



Don't pretend rogues got nothing.
- The 41 pointer in combat is about 2 - 2.5% DPS increase if I modify the damage spreadsheet accordingly.
- Assuming a 1.6 speed offhand and 85% hit rate, potency is looking to add around 16% energy on average, which allows for more backstabs. Assuming you still ahve to use SnD all the time and never another finisher, you still get a backstab DPS increase that is point for point is better than Lethality.
- Add in the small agility increase of Vitality and you're talking about a total of around 8-9% total damage increase from 10 new talent points, even counting the 'filler' points.
I'm not buying the whining, I don't think your complaints are valid. The initial complaints were justified, the first shot at the rogue talents weren't great... but Blizzard has "nickel and dimed" rogues back into the ball game. Many small changes are adding up to be a decent overall improvement in the "raid DPS" build.

I get 2% for my stats. Let's not forget, this is 2% for what is listed as an 8% talent. They could make it 10% and I still wouldn't like it, because the talent as it stands is boring, lame, adds nothing new, is counterintuitive, and only works because they decided to keep bumping up a damage bonus until they forced it to work. Shadow Strikes, even if it only managed to boost my DPS by 2% (just like the current Suprise Attacks), would still have been better. Blizzard cannot get a "win" for this without a talent redesign, as it simply fails compared to what could have been, no matter the numbers.


I put it in as just extra energy converted to Backstabs, as it is inconsistent, thus hard to cycle. I get 7%. This makes it better than Dagger Spec per point, worse than Relentless Strikes and Dual-Wield Spec per point (as comparison). So it gets a checkmark.


Fully buffed, .55% increase total, an incredible .275% per point! Let me get right on that!


~9.5%. Let's compare.

First? Compare to a build I could have come up with before the talents were announced. Drop AR, only going so far as to grab WeapEx. You lose AR, one Dagger Spec (point for point a small sacrifice), and 2 filler. You finish Lethality, gain Imp Poisons, gain Cold Blood, gain far superior "filler" in the new Fleet Footed and/or Quick Recovery, and get 4/5 Seal Fate. Before Combat Potency, it wasn't even a question -> this was the far superior path. Now, it gives you the versatility Combat Dagger severly lacks (combo points), has less waste, for what will end up to be about the same damage. Using only 2 or 3 new, mid-tier talents. Remember, the first time Blizzard ever said talents would be higher tiers of current trees, it was in the Rogue forums, with a CM claiming the new tiers would help outweigh people just trying to go 30/31 and such. By the way, 30/31 is still a clearly superior Sword build (especially since Combat Potency will help them less, having slower OHs).

Second? Compare to Fire Mages. Already on equal footing for damage with Rogues. Could currently go 31/20 (high damage Fire, nice damage Frost), 30/21 (slightly less damage Fire but with Ice Block), or something like 13/31/3 (boost efficiency and keep Fire high). I can see a 10/46/3, getting 6% from Playing with Fire, Pyromaniac. My very quick-and-dirty compilation (using a T2-geared mage) got me 9% for Empowered Fireball, let's say it's 5% given some comes from Ignite and I might be wrong on calcs. That leaves Molten Fury, which will max at about 6% (if fight is long enough to fully matter). My very rough estimations are giving them over 15%. Oh, and they get a new, unique, ability on top of it.

This is why I'm looking at Mitzy right now.

Actually, an undead warrior with blacksmithing gets 2 more.

The undead have an answer to everything, except the omnipresent "rotting flesh itch."

I figure that's what the Royal Apothecary Society is *really* after. A good skin ointment.

-Jester

Not every tree and every playstyle is going to see a huge buff. Look at resto shamans - Earthen Shield is about it.

I still don't see why you are married to combat daggers. It seems really boring - stand behind, backstab and slice and dice. Don't you want more playstyle variety? Not to mention you guys are getting a huge buff from probably having WF + BOK/Might. Firemages on the other hand, are getting a pretty big nerf just by going from 40->25 (or less) - fewer mages means fewer rolling ignites.

I'm not. In fact, I'd love for Mutilate to work out as it brings many interesting things on trying to max out DPS. But, just like Seal Fate currently, it's not enough. People who grabbed Mutilate are still averaging more damage with Backstab.

Think about that. They went 41 points into a tree to get one skill, and it's still beaten by a trainable skill. And worse, they sacrificed a bunch of talents that help that trainable skill to get even better. So now they're below the bar on two abilities instead of being ready for one.

Combat Dagger? Only sticking with it (at least at first) if Blizzard gives me no reasonble alternative. Currently, there is none.

You were complaining about how rogues got screwed compared to warriors, now you're complaining about mages instead and that a talent isn't exciting enough, that it's too boring and lame.

I think this kind of junk belongs on the WoW boards with the other whiners.

If you're estimating a 9.5% damage increase from 10 talent points, I don't see why there are complaints. 1% per point is great considering you have to have some filler talents too.

I'd encourage you to play your mage in the same situation. I think you'll find that what you have is a "grass is always greener" issue.

People? Or Wodin? Even he said mutilate is better when the target is poisoned. And rogues just got a new skill that garentees a poison.

Even if it's substantially worse solo or 5 man, it may get better if two rogues are working togeather to keep a target poisoned in a 25 man instance.

Totems are your missing 5% compared to a Fire mage. I checked it today (don't have Excel at home).

A lot depends on whether raid mobs are vulnerable to poison. They weren't in Molten Core and most other level 60 raid content. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that mobs generally are effected by it in BC 25 man raids

If they are affected by it then 3 or 4 Rogues is pretty much a guaranteed permanent poison effect. Sum poison damage with extra Mutilate damage and the game's top dpsers just got a lot stronger. Remember there are 40 debuff slots, remember too that some poison effects are very nice (eg Mind-numbing).

It seems early for misery when no one is yet raiding the level 70 content

It requires 25 Rage, which is a hefty sum for a two-handed Warrior (especially since TM will only reach 25 points with three points invested into Protection), and a very large amount for a sword-and-board user.

It also has a 10 second cooldown, and requires either Defensive or Battle Stance. Most Warriors, in PvP, will be in Berserker Stance.

It also includes a noticeable animation (the same as Shield Block's, it seems), which further alerts enemy spellcasters to not hurl something powerful in your direction until five seconds pass or you take off your shield. Alternatively, they could just tag you with a rank 1 instant (Shadow Word: Pain, Fireblast, Corruption, and so many others), which would cause them little damage (or none at all if they're under the effects of something like Fire/Frost/Shadow Ward or Power Word: Shield) and still eat your reflection effect. It might inconvience them somewhat, requiring them to waste 1.5 seconds on an instant spell before sheeping you, but overall I can't see it making a lot of difference against an alert caster. Frankly, I'd rather use the Engineering trinkets (since it's quite funny watching a Fire mage kill himself by casting a ToEP or ZHC Pyroblast at someone that hit the Flame Reflector before being sheeped.)

If they reduced the Rage cost to something more practical (like, say, 10 or 15), you might have a point, but I don't see many people blowing 25 Rage on something that's so easily countered.