I've been doing a fair amount of playing in BGs with my rogue lately and on many occasions I've seen people AFK for 15+ minutes while the rest of the team is going about their business trying to accomplish tasks and such in the BG. When I see this kind of behavior, I report the person in a short note under the physical harassment category.

I wanted to share a couple of my experiences on this topic.

1) person standing in the AV cave and mouthing off about not helping the entire AV in the /bg channel. I Reported them and told them in /bg I had done so and would ask them if I saw them later what happened. A few days later I saw the guy in an AB (actually playing and helping). He was nice about letting me know he got a 3 hour suspension. He said he didn't blame me for reporting him, and that he was kind of curious what would happen as well.

2) I always report people AFK in the defiler den in AB. I report people after it's very clear they've been there for a long time (10-15 minutes in and they are 0 / 0 / 0 but with a bonus honor total that indicates they've been in the BG since the beginning.) On a day of serious PvPing I might see 2 of these or so. Today I reported someone for the third time in the last week. I also happened to catch one of the more informative GMs on this particular ticket who said something to the extent of:

"Thank you for bringing this exploiter to our attention, do you have a minute to talk about your ticket?"

as an opening line. This is definitely the most forward a GM has ever been with me, calling the person an exploiter right out of the gate. Near the end of the conversation, the GM said something akin to this:

"Apparently he didn't get the hint the last time, and I assure you he won't have the opportunity to make the same mistake again"

Ouch. It's good to know something happens though. I was doing a bit of wondering if my tickets were accomplishing anything before I started getting this kind of feedback. I thought it might be of some interest to others to know that submitting tickets about these kinds of people ARE valuable.

Interesting.

Personally I consider AV to now be fair game for afk/semi afk type behavior. If they are going to give up on providing an epic PvP experience, I'm going to give up on playing in it. As many problems as it had, old school AV really gave me the tingles sometimes. Now its a dreary PvE exercise, often over faster then the "lunchtime" AB.

I wonder if the guy you got a 3hr's suspension for got it for mouthing off. If I'm going to afk (just did a few marks to top me off to 20 for the next patch), the last thing I want to do is yell at morons. I watch TV (hooray for wireless keyboards) or read forums. I've done this for a sizable portion of the exalted grind on 2 toons as well as those 20 marks for my main. I have yet to have a problem.

Bots are a different matter. If somebody is using a bot, they get what they have coming.

AB/WSG are also different. They are small enough that one person sitting out hurts the rest. They are also well designed, and deserve your full attention.

The new BG looks fun, but there isn't any word on Azshara crater yet, is there? Maybe after I get that swampland, I can get a catapult to drive around on it.

This particular guy said a lot of things, but none of them were curse words or like the post I read in the Customer service forum the other day, inappropriate talk about what one might do with a [Huge Brown Sack] (see this post in the Customer Service forum for that reference http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...112206&sid=1#11 )

I was paying attention, I think he was being careful not to say something that would get him in trouble for language.

Based on the conversations I've had with GMs, joining a BG with the intent of non-participation is definitely actionable. Another customer service forum post (that has unfortunately scrolled into the abyss) had a guy complaining about getting a 3 day suspension for fishing during an AV.

So if you do watch TV or do house chores while standing around in AV jumping every 3-4 minutes to keep from going AFK, don't be surprised if you end up with a suspension. It's clear that you CAN get one from that kind of activity, and you definitely deserve it if you do get one.

Then don't play in it, and don't take up the spot of someone who'd actually like to contribute.

Agreed. If one is giving up on playing a battleground, it's wrong to cheat the team out of a USEFUL raid slot by sitting there, inactive.

I realized I'd probably catch a bit of flack for my statement, but w/e. They make it epic, I'll go back to playing full time.

As far as taking up somebody's slot... I'm horde. I'm _giving_ an ally player a slot.

And when I do play, I'm easily 3-4 times as effective as the average player, so it evens out. It's not that I'm that good, its that the general population, especially those from immature or PvE servers is that bad.

Last night a few guildies were stacking up AB marks for the patch. We were cruising to an easy 4 base win, and generally laughing at our hapless opponents. I was watching the LM solo when a lock came charging up. I was paying more attention to TS chat then the fight when - Ow my face! I hadn't looked at the name carefully, and it was somebody from my server.

So, you're saying, it's okay to screw over your teammates by being in a game without contributing, so long as the battleground doesn't meet your definition of "epic"?

What a strange line of reasoning.

-Jester

Your hole keeps getting deeper, perhaps you should stop digging. Poor play is immune to server type. Your opinions seen in this thread are incredibly disprespectful. Your rationalizations for condoning cheating are borderline insanity. Quit while you've only lost the respect of half of us.

Personally I consider BWL to be fair game for afk/semi afk type behavior. If they are going to make better gear in Naxx, I'm going to give up on trying to get it from BWL. As many problems as it had, when BWL was the highest instance it really gave me the tingles sometimes. Now its a dreary grind for gear I don't need, often cleared faster than "offnight" MC.

I bet a serious post like that would go over well in your guild's forum.

In the meantime, stay out of the BG completely. "One person" not contributing in AV may not hurt that bad - but there's always more than one. You're part of the problem. Stop it.



No, you're not. Since cross-server BG's were put in, I have never been in an AV that wasn't full on the horde side. Stop rationalizing



No, it doesn't. What you're saying is, if I can into an AV with you when you don't feel like playing, too bad. If you do feel like playing, I should feel honored. Well, when you decide to play, there are certainly others that decide not to. So, in effect, it does even out, but not in the way you were thinking - there's always a bunch of dorks AFK and dragging the whole game down. Sometimes you're one of them. But when you're not, the whole BG still suffers from the other people that are.

I really hope your server is not in the same battlegroup as mine, because I'd hate to see you in AV.

Only botting is explicitly defined as cheating

It would be a huge stretch to fit BG afk under the harassment policy



I will until the patch. I'll be back for 20 more marks for my HWL axe.



I've been in nonfull ones. My instant queue means somebody was waiting on the ally side.



There's a lot of people I hate to see in AV, like shadow priests who refuse to drop shadow form even as the only MT healer /y's OOM or hunters who kite extra marshalls through the group.

Poor play is different than not playing. If you don't think the game is worth the time to actually play, don't join. You're hurting those of us that are actually there trying to win, and your attitude that it's OK because the game sucks doesn't fly - don't make the game worse for the rest of us because you don't like it. You're not "better than everyone else", which is what your posts imply you are. You're not entitled to a spot if you're just preventing yourself from afking - ever. Play the game or stay out. Period.

These are not actionable. The GMs are enforcing blatant non-participation based on my own experiences. As long as this is the case, the behavior of sitting at your keyboard and hitting space bar every few minutes IS CHEATING. If it wasn't, then the GMs wouldn't give people suspensions for it.

Rationalize it however you feel you need to, it doesn't change the fact that if you do it you are considered cheating and can end up getting a suspension on a first offense or worse on subsequent offenses.

I'm kind of curious as to how Oldmandennis defines "epic". Does he mean "long"? Because long matches still happen from time to time (I was in a match the Alliance won in 2 hours 40 the other week, and I've participate in some slow Horde victories).

However the long matches aren't necessarily any more satisfying than the short matches (unless you enjoy wildly inflated honorable kill totals). Generally it means the two sides are at a stalemate where neither side can gain an advantage over the other (eg Horde trying to take the Aid Station with 40 Alliance defending - I was in a match where not even Lok'dolar could break the deadlock).

The most fun I have in AV is the frantically defending a graveyard against seemingly non-stop waves of Horde attackers - the times when you feel you can't afford to leave the flag defence for a second or it will be captured. Those moments can happen in short matches and long ones.

Possibly OMD wants to actually see and fight a member of the opposing faction. This can best be done by playing defense (omg!) in AV - stopping the enemy from finishing your general off is as important as racing ahead to beat down their general.

Horde seems to rarely play defense in AV though... Which may go toward explaining why Alliance wins most AVs.

It depends on your the group of servers you BG on. I got my warrior from neutral to exaulted with only 8 or 9 losses. (I was willing to tank and people were willing to heal OMG!)

oldmandennis:

I advise you to look at your opening post, and your advocacy of AFK for you, and tell me how you feel it squares with Lounge policy against cheating.

If the activity is reportable to an ingame ref, and can get a player suspended, how is it NOT cheating?

If it is cheating, why are you advocating it on the Lounge?

Occhi

One more then I'm done with this.



In my previous post, I linked the only authoritative sources I could find. Conc's protestations to the contrary, it does not appear to be cheating. If anybody can find a direct, authoritative quote specifically and unquestionably prohibiting afk *without a bot* behavior, I woln't do it any more.

The "In game refs" are widely known for being inconsistent, inaccurate, and frequently flat out wrong. The fact that _one_ of them finds the behavior actionable means very little to me. I've actually tried reporting people for this behavior - many patches ago in a very different battle ground - and that GM sure didn't think it was actionable. One of the leading guilds on our server was so well known for it they became known as (instead of Pacifist) Pacifish. As far as I know, nothing ever happened to them, despite screen shots of them fishing away posted on the relm forums.



I've written tons of posts about AV, how it used to be, how it should be, and why I think defense right now is a bad idea. Short version - bring back join as group, add matchmaking to balance that out, stiffen the NPC's so that minimum game time is atleast 1 hr, but buff/smarten/add another player spawned event so that the game is unlikely to last more then 4 hr. If you are still curious, hit the search bar, because this thread is toxic enough I'm not coming back... unless somebody really can drag up that link I mention at the top, in which case I'll post a quick "I'll sin no more".

Here you go. Edit: or did I misunderstand what link you wanted?

Oh, and here's the official policy on afk'ing.

The only time I have ever reported anyone for anything was an Alliance player who sat in the mountains in AB, had full bonus honor, zero KB, zero deaths, and zero HK. I have found and killed plenty of AFK Horde, even in the WSG flag room. Only one of these people though appeared to be using some sort of exploit to keep from AFK'ing out.

I plainly disbelief you on this one.

1. A GM will never ever discuss with you an account action taken against a third party. He won't be GM for long otherwise.
2. GMs don't have the power to issue perma bans. Anything that goes beyond a three hour account suspension has to be issued by a seperate department: the account administration. These are people that specifically investigate accounts for TOS violations and take appropate steps.


Oh btw, I fish for Nightfins in AV. The developers put them in there, so logic dictates that it is fair game to fish for them. If developers implement a harvestable ressource in the AV, it is there to be, well, harvested, otherwise it would be removed. At least something useful to do in AV

Believe what you wish.

How can I make this stuff up? I was as surprised as you at his response. Perhaps he was a special GM, I don't know. He certainly didn't speak like any of the other GMs I've spoken to. And when I PvP, I speak to 2 or 3 a day reporting AFKers, so I have some experience with how GMs 'usually' act. Anyone from a different department is still tagged as a GM... did you ever see the thread one the guys who were using glider bots getting banned. The guy who was banning them had a GM tag, and apparently he was:
1) rather creative with his pre-ban discussions
2) almost always it was the same GM

I know what was said to me and I repeated it to GG as it was happening. I literally cannot understand how you would think I could possibly make up those comments... or that I would make them up and post them here.

Well, the GM didn't say you couldn't fish. And the ToS just says that you can't avoid the AFK monitor (as I understand it). Still, it's important to understand that AV's current design is loaded with cruft. Remember siege weapons, etc., being described in pre-WoW articles? Quoting Tom Chilton:



(from http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/insider/09/interview.xml )

So AV had to be patched up and (shock!) not all the cruft was eliminated along the way. The developers probably aren't bothering with fixing it because there's more money for the money bin* in producing new content, not fixing crufty old content. I.e., Eye of the Storm is worth more than Alterac Valley, Zangarmarsh is worth more than Aszhara. That leads us into murky ethical territory if we're acting based solely on game design.

While I sympathize with OMD (my first trip to exalted was before the rep buff...<shudder>), my guiding principle in AV is: My faction's other players. They're there, ostensibly, to win. Not contributing to that effort is disrespect to my fellow players, not the game designers. So if I don't want to contribute (And sometimes my fellow players are dumb enough to waste any contribution I make), I /afk out. This doesn't make running-against-a-wall or hiding-and-tapping-the-spacebar definitively cheats, it's just what I feel is the ethical choice.



*visible from up to 5 Nautical Miles (and also from space), the Money Bin is much like Scrooge McDuck's, except in place of "$", it says cryptically, "LOL PWNT U"

That rofled my waffles.

The discussion at hand aside, it's clear that AV needs a critical redesign. As it stands now I can barely see the place for the bandaids. While it has it's moments of fun, most of the time the place is a boring as bat.... Although it is quite interesting the track the various changes that have been made to the place from concept to current day.