The Lurker Lounge Forums > patch 2.0.10 notes on the PTR

Ruvanal

Feb 24 2007, 04:41 AM

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...patchnotes.html

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General

    * Some logic was fixed in the "Natural Remedies" quest so that Pathaleon the Calculator's Image will always spawn during the ritual.
    * Goliathon and his shardlings can no longer be pulled to nearby areas that have guards.
    * More fixes implemented in the "It's a Fel Reaver, But With Heart" quest to keep the Scrapped Fel Reaver from breaking.
    * The Orb of the Blackwhelp and Hallowed Wands can no longer be used in combat, and the transformation will be canceled if the player receives damage.
    * The Scrap Reaver in Netherstorm repairs reduced from 10,000 health to 8,500 health over 10 seconds.
    * Battle of the Crimson Watch
          o Illidari Mind Breaker has been weakened.
          o Illidari Highlords can now be CC'ed but not Charmed.

PvP

    * Arenas
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Slicer" has been increased to 2625 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Quickblade" has been decreased to 1125 arena points and changed to offhand only.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Cleaver" has been increased to 2625 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Hacker" has been decreased to 1125 arena points and changed to offhand only.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Pummeler" has been increased to 2625 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Bonecracker" has been decreased to 1125 arena points and changed to offhand only.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Right Ripper" has been increased to 2625 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Left Ripper" has been decreased to 1125 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Shanker" has been increased to 2625 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Shiv" has been decreased to 1125 arena points and changed to offhand only.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's War Edge" has been decreased to 1000 arena points and the speed changed to 1.9.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Spellblade" has been increased to 3150 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Touch of Defeat" has been decreased to 1000 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Gladiator's Endgame" has been decreased to 1125 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Idol of Tenacity" has been decreased to 1000 arena points.
          o The cost of the "Libram of Justice" has been decreased to 1000 arena points.
          o The cost of the "totem of the Third Wind" has been decreased to 1000 arena points.

Druids

    * When the duration of "Cyclone" ends, area buffs such as "Leader of the Pack", "Tree of Life", and "Moonkin" will now be correctly resumed.
    * "Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health.
    * "Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.
    * The multiplier on base weapon damage for "Mangle (Bear)" ability has been changed from 130% to 100%. In addition, the bonus damage has been reduced by the same ratio.
    * "Savage Fury" no longer affects "Mangle (Bear)".
    * "Savage Fury" no longer applies to "Maul" or "Swipe".
    * The critical damage bonus on "Predatory Instincts" reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%.
    * "Improved Leader of the Pack" can no longer get critical heals.
    * The armor bonus from "Moonkin Form" has been increased from 360% to 400% (to match Dire Bear Form).
    * The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage.

Paladins

    * The slowing affect from "Avenger's Shield" is now considered a snare, so snare removal and immunity affects will now work on it.

Priests

    * The base healing percent from "Vampiric Embrace" has been reduced to 15% from 20%. In addition, this ability can no longer get critical heals.
    * "Silent Resolve" no longer reduces threat generated by Shadow spells.
    * Prayer of Mending now has a 20 second cooldown.
    * If a targeted enemy has a magic effect granting immunity to spell or physical damage, “Mass Dispel” will now always pick that effect as its target.

Shaman

    * The clearcasting effect from "Elemental Focus" now triggers on all spell critical strikes, rather than a chance on any spell hit.
    * The shaman will no longer generate additional threat when "Unleashed Rage" triggers.
    * The free Lightning spell cast from "Lightning Overload" will now cause reduced threat.
    * "Stoneclaw Totem" now has a 50% chance to stun attackers for 3 sec. when struck.

Warlock

    * "Demonic Tactics" now grants increased critical strike chance to you and your demon pet, instead of increased damage.

Warriors

    * The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage. The typical warrior should see an increase of 15% to 20% in their rage generation.
    * All warriors had their critical strike chance adjusted upward slightly (about 1%).
    * "Thunder Clap" is now useable in Defensive Stance. In addition, the tooltip has been adjusted to indicate it causes additional threat.
    * The cooldown on "Victory Rush" has been removed, and it can now be used up to 20 seconds after killing an enemy.
    * "Unbridled Wrath" has been modified so that rather than a fixed chance to grant rage, it has an increased chance when using slower weapons.

Items

    * The threat generated from the spell effect on "Thunderfury" has been substantially reduced.
    * The bonus to "Swipe" from the "Idol of Brutality" has been reduced from 50 to 10.
    * "Alchemist's Stone" will no longer increase healing and mana gained from items which are not potions.
    * The cost of sockets in high end items has been adjusted slightly, the result is that most high end epic items should see an increase in stats.
    * Corrected many items that had incorrect stat values assigned to them.
    * The rewards from the "Fel Embers" quest are now superior items as intended.
    * Reduced the damage dealt by "The Lightning Capacitor".
    * Corrected the level requirement of the "Fist of Reckoning".
    * "Necklace of Trophies" has been corrected to increase Hit Rating instead of Hit Avoidance.
    * "Burnoose of Shifting Ages" can now be disenchanted.
    * "Nethershrike" now has the proper sell value and can be disenchanted.
    * Corrected the level of "Marksman's Bow" to be in line with other epic reputation rewards.
    * The "Marksman's Bow" now has the proper damage range.
    * "Hourglass of the Unraveller" will now properly increase ranged attack power.
    * Corrected the socket bonus for "Soul-Collar of the Incarnate".
    * Corrected a typo in the set bonus of "Warbringer Armor".
    * "Ruby Slippers" now properly have a cast time.
    * Corrected the min use level of "Terokk's Shadowstaff".
    * "Warpscale Leggings" have had their Crit Rating updated to the intended Dodge Rating.
    * "Warmaul Slayer's Band" no longer has critical strike rating. However, its agility and attack power have been increased.
    * "Ancient Draenei War Talisman" now shares a cooldown with all trinkets that temporarily increase damage done.
    * "Ancient Draenei Arcane Relic" shares a cooldown with all trinkets that temporarily increase damage done.
    * "Aldor Guardian Rifle" now has a range correctly set on it.
    * The effect on "Void Star Talisman" was incorrectly set to On Use. It is now set to On Equip.
    * The critical strike rating on "Cilice of Suffering" has been changed to spell critical strike rating.
    * The cooldown for "Glimmering Mithril Insignia" has been increased from 10 minutes to 20 minutes.
    * The slowing affect from the "Mug 'O Hurt" is now considered a snare, so snare removal and immunity affects will now work on it.

Raids and Dungeons

    * Creatures in Tempest Keep:Botanica, Tempest Keep: Mechanar, and Tempest Keep:Arcatraz no longer respawn as rapidly.
    * Shadow Labyrinth
          o Reduced the chance of a Cabal Assassin ambush.
    * Shattered Halls
          o Removed a problematic chest.
          o The "Resist Shadow" spell cast by Shadowmoon Acolyte's in Shattered Halls will now be removed if a player leaves the zone.
    * Serpentshrine Cavern
          o Boss creatures have received additional tuning and polish.
    * Arcatraz
          o Warder and Defender Corpses are now immune to spell effects that could cause the Protean Spawn to not spawn.
          o Protean Spawn now deal less damage.
    * Tempest Keep Mechanar
          o Mechanar Drillers, Wreckers, and Crushers in Tempest Keep: The Mechanar may no longer be enslaved when in Heroic mode.
    * Caverns of Time
          o Captain Skarloc in Caverns of Time: Escape from Durnholde is no longer susceptible to disarm, and does not slow down when wounded.
          o A defeat in the Caverns of Time: Opening of the Dark Portal instance will no longer despawn unlooted bosses with loot.
          o Occasionally after players are defeated in the Caverns of Time: Opening of the Dark Portal encounter on Heroic difficulty, the placeholder versions of the bosses that appear in future attempts that day would not spawn. The proper placeholders will now spawn instead of Rift Lords and Rift Keepers.
          o Boss creatures in Caverns of Time: Opening of the Dark Portal will now dispel all nearby Time Keepers instead of one at a time.
    * Karazhan
          o Maiden of Virtue's "Holy Wrath" has been slightly retuned to try and allow additional melee attackers to be used against her.
          o Maiden of Virtue's "Holy Fire" has been adjusted to prevent a possible range exploit.
          o Maiden of Virtue will no longer "Holy Fire" players under the effect of "Repentance".
          o Midnight is no longer susceptible to Bleed effects, since he's a skeletal horse.
          o Nightbane's Restless Skeletons are now immune to non-holy magical damage.
          o Restless Skeletons no longer have immolation.
          o Nightbane's Bone Shard Spray can no longer be interrupted by using an immunity effect.
          o Some minor issues with the Library Tomes have been corrected.

Bug Fixes

    * Fixed the credits to display properly.

Quark

Feb 24 2007, 05:26 AM

Overheard at the Blizzard headquarters ...

QUOTE

Hmm, Arena weapon costs 2H compared to 1H are kinda screwy. How can we resolve the issue in a way that only harms one subset of the game? I know, we'll do some silly MH/OH thing, thus making Mutilate Rogues pay more than everybody else for the same level of gear!

Also, Arena weapons in general are too cheap.

Artega

Feb 24 2007, 05:58 AM

QUOTE(Quark @ Feb 24 2007, 01:26 AM)

Overheard at the Blizzard headquarters ...
Also, Arena weapons in general are too cheap.

They did it just to piss you off, Quark.

I was hoping for some new engineering prints so I can finally start my rep grind with Aldor or Scryer, but I guess I'll have to be happy with my shiny new chickengun.

As for the Warrior changes, I effing LOVE them. And they said that tclap in Defensive wasn't gonna happen

TheDragoon

Feb 24 2007, 06:00 AM

My first impression:

Druid tanking - Mega, uber, crazy, super nerfed.
Shadow Priests - Mega nerf.
Warrior tanking - buffed nicely

I really think that they went overboard on the Druid bearform nerfs. They just lost 20% of damage off of special attacks, 25% damage off of mangle, 5% damage off of crits (all of these translate to direct threat nerfs, as well), ~10% less armor in bear form as well as a fair amount of health (not sure, exactly, how much at the moment) all in one fell swoop. This seems to be another example of several Blizzard teams deciding, independantly, to nerf a specific attribute about a class, at the same time, without talking to one another. I'll grant that the Druid bearform was very powerful, currently (probably a bit too powerful) but these are really over the top.

Shadow Priests just lost a bit of utility (in the VE nerf) and a lot of threat reduction (Silent Resolve) in addition to the general priest nerf to prayer of mending (which was probably warranted). The threat reduction is the killer, here, because shadow priests have always been tough on aggro.

Warriors can now use thunderclap in defensive stance and it appears to be a good option for generating multi-target threat. Oh, and Warriors get back all of the rage that they lost with the original normalization. Big buffs here.

Quark

Feb 24 2007, 06:03 AM

QUOTE(TheDragoon @ Feb 24 2007, 01:00 AM)

My first impression:

Druid tanking - Mega, uber, crazy, super nerfed.
Shadow Priests - Mega nerf.
Warrior tanking - buffed nicely

I really think that they went overboard on the Druid bearform nerfs. They just lost 20% of damage off of special attacks, 25% damage off of mangle, 5% damage off of crits (all of these translate to direct threat nerfs, as well), ~10% less armor in bear form as well as a fair amount of health (not sure, exactly, how much at the moment) all in one fell swoop. This seems to be another example of several Blizzard teams deciding, independantly, to nerf a specific attribute about a class, at the same time, without talking to one another. I'll grant that the Druid bearform was very powerful, currently (probably a bit too powerful) but these are really over the top.

I'm betting by the time they're done nerfing Druid damage, their threat will need a significant boost, along the lines of the threat bonuses they already removed from Swipe and Maul. I still believe they nerfed the wrong thing when those threat bonuses were removed.

MongoJerry

Feb 24 2007, 06:28 AM

QUOTE(TheDragoon @ Feb 23 2007, 10:00 PM)

Shadow Priests just lost a bit of utility (in the VE nerf) and a lot of threat reduction (Silent Resolve) in addition to the general priest nerf to prayer of mending (which was probably warranted). The threat reduction is the killer, here, because shadow priests have always been tough on aggro.

Nah, the nerfs to shadow priests are minor. There're already talents in the shadow tree to reduce aggro on shadow spells by 8% per rank up to three. The real nerf here is Prayer of Mending. I can understand why it needed some nerfing, but a 20 second cooldown seems excessive. 10 seconds would knock off severe abuse while still keeping the spell a good level 68 spell to get. With this nerf, healing priests have gone from being powerful surviveable tools in PvP to being punching bags for every warrior or rogue with halfway decent gear. Dang it. I was looking forward to playing a healing priest in PvP. Now I'll have to do some kind of hybrid thing again.

Gnollguy

Feb 24 2007, 07:14 AM

QUOTE(Quark @ Feb 24 2007, 12:03 AM)

I'm betting by the time they're done nerfing Druid damage, their threat will need a significant boost, along the lines of the threat bonuses they already removed from Swipe and Maul. I still believe they nerfed the wrong thing when those threat bonuses were removed.

Yeah the damage reduction to bear these changes make seem in line to me, bear damage was too high.

I don't know if the threat reduction this will do is too much though. But yeah I think they may have to put extra aggro back on swipe. I've yet to see a druid have aggro issues on a single target so this might not be too bad for that. This is going to hurt multi target aggro right when they give warriors a huge boost to multi target aggro. Imp T-clap in battle stance was already about 1/2 - 3/4 of a sunder. Now you get to do it in def stance. I can't see druids keeping up remotely with paladins and warriors on mutli mob aggro now. So they will have to do something to help swipe aggro again I think.

But yeah they didn't include those changes but I agree they might have to.

I still don't get the nerfs to shadow priests. PoM changes seem fine to me, it doesn't completely invalidate shaman's chain heals anymore. It was too good. And while the shadow priest changes may be small, shadow priests weren't uber strong to begin with. I just don't understand why, but I could be missing something.

Warriors may have been over buffed as well. I still didn't see huge rage issues with my warrior or the warriors I played with.

We'll see how it works out. I'll admit druids may have been nerfed too much but well they were buffed too much in 2.0 anyway, at least I felt that way.

Trien

Feb 24 2007, 07:15 AM

Re: Druid changes.

Not having actually played on the test realm I can't give any numbers of my own, but judging from some numbers others have reported and the numbers given in the patch notes...

The armour and HP nerfs while not insignificant, aren't that terribly distressing to me.

The bear damage nerf on the other hand, is of concern, namely in threat generation. While bear damage is tending on the high side currently, in terms of bear agro generation and how much damage is actually required to hold agro against the players who I play with, getting my agro cut by about 1/3 is going to be a pretty big problem.

Increased rage generation is all and good when you're not tanking in a raid, but when you've pretty much got unlimited rage from the damage taken, it doesn't do much good against the nerf to agro.

And Swipe... what is the point of Swipe again?

Warlock

Feb 24 2007, 12:25 PM

I logged KV onto the PTR to check changes. Same talent build as live (though Savage Fury is now pointless).

The green items with masses of free armour are all unchanged for now.

Unbuffed HP went from 11805 to 10872; armour from 20095 to 18317. No big deal. I wonder why they nerfed the class instead of the relevant overbudget items.

Swipe against critters went from 318 to 219. Ouch. Threat wise that's just 14% better than Swipe was in patch 1.8 at level 60 and I know I need a lot more than 14% more healing than I did then.

I need to do some math on physical mitigation compared to warriors and multiple-target threat generation compared to the new thunderclap but it's almost midnight here. If there is still a niche where Druid tanks are preferred it's a lot smaller.

TheDragoon

Feb 24 2007, 02:35 PM

QUOTE(Warlock @ Feb 24 2007, 04:25 AM)

\Unbuffed HP went from 11805 to 10872; armour from 20095 to 18317. No big deal. I wonder why they nerfed the class instead of the relevant overbudget items.

That's still an 8% reduction in life and an 8.5% reduction in armor. That sort of thing really starts to add up, particularly when Druids were already being beaten out by warriors in terms of overall damage mitigation, particularly against magical attacks.

QUOTE

Swipe against critters went from 318 to 219. Ouch. Threat wise that's just 14% better than Swipe was in patch 1.8 at level 60 and I know I need a lot more than 14% more healing than I did then.

And remember that Swipe and Maul no longer have their scaling threat modifier. Swipe has no modifier and Maul has a flat bonus. As was mentioned above, I expect this to be a pretty major drop-off in threat generation. Granted, Druid threat was probably a little above where it should have been, but this is definitely taking it too far, in my opinion.

QUOTE

I need to do some math on physical mitigation compared to warriors and multiple-target threat generation compared to the new thunderclap but it's almost midnight here. If there is still a niche where Druid tanks are preferred it's a lot smaller.

My main worry is that Druid tanking will no longer be competitive with protection warrior tanking at all. I guess time will tell, but I get the feeling that Blizzard has definitely not thought things through with these changes. The only way a Druid is going to be competitive is if they get some better itemization for tanking but I just don't really see that happening.

Mavfin

Feb 24 2007, 02:40 PM

QUOTE(Warlock @ Feb 24 2007, 06:25 AM)

I logged KV onto the PTR to check changes. Same talent build as live (though Savage Fury is now pointless).

The green items with masses of free armour are all unchanged for now.

Unbuffed HP went from 11805 to 10872; armour from 20095 to 18317. No big deal. I wonder why they nerfed the class instead of the relevant overbudget items.

Swipe against critters went from 318 to 219. Ouch. Threat wise that's just 14% better than Swipe was in patch 1.8 at level 60 and I know I need a lot more than 14% more healing than I did then.

I need to do some math on physical mitigation compared to warriors and multiple-target threat generation compared to the new thunderclap but it's almost midnight here. If there is still a niche where Druid tanks are preferred it's a lot smaller.

I wouldn't get worried about the (druid) threat nerf. Lots of warriors were crying that they wouldn't be able to hold aggro with their changes, and it turned out to be much ado about nothing. Druids will end up the same. Skilled players will do well, unskilled will have to learn to do better. What this may have changed is that joe pug druid may not have it any easier than joe pug warrior tank. Both will have to work at it now.

Nice buffs to the warrior. With even more rage, my *prot* warrior will do real damage now. Interesting. And, even more rage for tanking, even though I personally had all I needed. Now if joe pug tank could actually tank...oh, wait, what was I smoking?

And, TD, you may have lost your niche again. #1 damage AND tanking at the same time. That was a little much, anyway.

Edit: Did anyone catch the TF proc nerf? Wondered if they were going to let it stay the #1 threat weap.

Monkey

Feb 24 2007, 03:19 PM

The big question my priest friends are asking (and Mongo hinted at it): "How did PoM make it through Blizzard's internal testing without someone seeing that it would get spammed?"

I'm really trying not to be hyperbolic about the nerfs, but most of my friends and guildmates play Priests or Druids. It's not uncommon for me to look at the guild tab on any given night and see that 60% of the people are "healer" classes while the others have "healer" alts. The net effect of these changes is a nerf to my guild, so my friends and I will feel them quite acutely. We really enjoyed our Shadow Priests + Bear(s) instance runs and we thought it was "Working as Intended". In our minds, it made sense to have good synergies between off-spec "healers". A viable alternative to tank-and-spank, if you will.

/sigh

Responding to the comment that Druid changes were the result of "QQers", Drysc said:

QUOTE

We commonly take feedback or our own play experience and then put that to work testing and evaluating a specific class, ability, item, etc. There are some straight up nerfs in this patch, and that's from our testing showing that Druid damage was just much higher than we would like to see bear form doing. The threat generation was far and beyond what we would have thought or intended, and this type of information on what a class is able to perform is based on internal testing and statistical information.

We take ideas, suggestions, and feedback and take that into an investigation of any possible issue. We're balancing classes based on evidence and our own design of how we would like classes to function.

QQers need not apply. They're weeded out as soon as the numbers hit the table.

(emphasis mine)

I'd like to see these numbers and the assumptions on which they're based. What were the gear levels and situations? PvE and/or PvP? Was the mob used for threat testing able to bleed (i.e., was Lacerate included)? What DPS were the weapons being used against PoM? There are many questions about their assumptions but they assure us that internal testing validated the need for these changes before the PTRs came out.

Wait, is that the same "internal testing" that let Live get into this situation in the first place?

Bolty

Feb 24 2007, 05:55 PM

QUOTE(Monkey @ Feb 24 2007, 10:19 AM)

The big question my priest friends are asking (and Mongo hinted at it): "How did PoM make it through Blizzard's internal testing without someone seeing that it would get spammed?"

The thing non-Priests are forgetting is:

1) PoM scales poorly with greater +heal gear, so as time goes on it will be less and less effective vs the incoming DPS which always outpaces healing

2) Power Word: Shield continues to barely scale at all to gear, so we needed something else instant-cast to protect ourselves. Oh well, back to being a free assist-train waste in PvP.

-Bolty

nobbie

Feb 24 2007, 07:10 PM

QUOTE(Ruvanal @ Feb 24 2007, 05:41 AM)

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...patchnotes.html

CODE

Druids

    * "Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health.
    * "Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.
    * The multiplier on base weapon damage for "Mangle (Bear)" ability has been changed from 130% to 100%. In addition, the bonus damage has been reduced by the same ratio.
    * "Savage Fury" no longer affects "Mangle (Bear)".
    * "Savage Fury" no longer applies to "Maul" or "Swipe".
    * The critical damage bonus on "Predatory Instincts" reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%.
    * "Improved Leader of the Pack" can no longer get critical heals.

Quark

Feb 24 2007, 07:31 PM

I've heard the main reason for the PoM nerf was PvP based. So now we're balancing skills based off people playing wrong? If you focus fire correctly, PoM is not going to counter you severely.

Warlock

Feb 24 2007, 08:52 PM

QUOTE(Mavfin @ Feb 25 2007, 01:40 AM)

I wouldn't get worried about the (druid) threat nerf. Lots of warriors were crying that they wouldn't be able to hold aggro with their changes, and it turned out to be much ado about nothing. Druids will end up the same. Skilled players will do well, unskilled will have to learn to do better. What this may have changed is that joe pug druid may not have it any easier than joe pug warrior tank. Both will have to work at it now.

Nice buffs to the warrior. With even more rage, my *prot* warrior will do real damage now. Interesting. And, even more rage for tanking, even though I personally had all I needed. Now if joe pug tank could actually tank...oh, wait, what was I smoking?

And, TD, you may have lost your niche again. #1 damage AND tanking at the same time. That was a little much, anyway.

Edit: Did anyone catch the TF proc nerf? Wondered if they were going to let it stay the #1 threat weap.

A 30% drop in threat is no small adjustment. That's like removing the bonus from defensive stance. I felt the Druid HP and armour edge was a little high so the 10% of each there doesn't phase me, I just wish they'd done it by fixing the overbudget items.

By niche I mean "when is a Druid tank preferable to a Warrior or Paladin tank". If the answer is "never" then the spec is pointless. I believe a 5-man should do just as well with any of the tanking classes in that role and that a raid should want one of each so they can use each in the fights best suited to the class.

Artega

Feb 24 2007, 08:58 PM

QUOTE

We commonly take feedback or our own play experience and then put that to work testing and evaluating a specific class, ability, item, etc. There are some straight up nerfs in this patch, and that's from our testing showing that Druid damage was just much higher than we would like to see bear form doing. The threat generation was far and beyond what we would have thought or intended, and this type of information on what a class is able to perform is based on internal testing and statistical information.

We take ideas, suggestions, and feedback and take that into an investigation of any possible issue. We're balancing classes based on evidence and our own design of how we would like classes to function.

QQers need not apply. They're weeded out as soon as the numbers hit the table

-Drysc.

Not sure where this came from. General, probably. Someone quoted him on our realm forum while gloating about the Druid nerfs.

Monkey

Feb 24 2007, 10:04 PM

QUOTE(Artega @ Feb 24 2007, 03:58 PM)

Not sure where this came from. General, probably. Someone quoted him on our realm forum while gloating about the Druid nerfs.

My Internal Testing team assured me you wouldn't need source links to Drysc's quote.

Link
Also from BlueTracker.

Mavfin

Feb 24 2007, 11:34 PM

QUOTE(Warlock @ Feb 24 2007, 02:52 PM)

A 30% drop in threat is no small adjustment. That's like removing the bonus from defensive stance. I felt the Druid HP and armour edge was a little high so the 10% of each there doesn't phase me, I just wish they'd done it by fixing the overbudget items.

By niche I mean "when is a Druid tank preferable to a Warrior or Paladin tank". If the answer is "never" then the spec is pointless. I believe a 5-man should do just as well with any of the tanking classes in that role and that a raid should want one of each so they can use each in the fights best suited to the class.

We used ferals in raids when needed in 1.x. We should see them in 2.x, too. And, I saw a ton of posts by warriors that looked just like the above. Really, it'll all settle out. The sky hasn't fallen

Mirajj

Feb 25 2007, 02:12 AM

QUOTE(Quark @ Feb 24 2007, 03:31 PM)

I've heard the main reason for the PoM nerf was PvP based. So now we're balancing skills based off people playing wrong? If you focus fire correctly, PoM is not going to counter you severely.

They've been screwing over PvE due to PvP whining for a long, long time. I don't see them stopping now.

Klaus

Feb 25 2007, 02:29 AM

QUOTE(MongoJerry @ Feb 23 2007, 11:28 PM)

Nah, the nerfs to shadow priests are minor. There're already talents in the shadow tree to reduce aggro on shadow spells by 8% per rank up to three.

I'm sorry, but as a dedicated shadow priest, I can't disagree more. The loss of 5% heal from VE and the loss of crits is irritating, but not a big deal. The loss of threat reduction is going to get me eaten again and again and again. The AoE heal from VE generates a *ton* of aggro, and going from -40% threat (-25% for shadow affinity, 20% for silent resolve, which multiplies out to -40% total) to -25% threat (shadow affinity alone) means I'm going to have to hold back on the damage. I can pull aggro today if I'm not careful (not usually on the main focus fire mob, but on the 2nd or 3rd, etc.), and it's just going to get way worse. Keep in mind that even if I don't cast VE and go completely gonzo on the output, I still can't keep up with mages or warlocks or rogues. So, if I'm going to pull aggro and get killed using VE, and I don't do as much damage as a mage when not using VE, why even invite me into the group?

And yes, I have played with and without the threat reduction in the past, so I'm familliar with the difference it makes. My tanks tell me it's *much* easier to tank for me when I have it.

I can live with the other changes, but the change to silent resolve is a major nerf.

TheDragoon

Feb 25 2007, 06:54 AM

QUOTE(Klaus @ Feb 24 2007, 06:29 PM)

I'm sorry, but as a dedicated shadow priest, I can't disagree more. The loss of 5% heal from VE and the loss of crits is irritating, but not a big deal. The loss of threat reduction is going to get me eaten again and again and again. The AoE heal from VE generates a *ton* of aggro, and going from -40% threat (-25% for shadow affinity, 20% for silent resolve, which multiplies out to -40% total) to -25% threat (shadow affinity alone) means I'm going to have to hold back on the damage. I can pull aggro today if I'm not careful (not usually on the main focus fire mob, but on the 2nd or 3rd, etc.), and it's just going to get way worse. Keep in mind that even if I don't cast VE and go completely gonzo on the output, I still can't keep up with mages or warlocks or rogues. So, if I'm going to pull aggro and get killed using VE, and I don't do as much damage as a mage when not using VE, why even invite me into the group?

And yes, I have played with and without the threat reduction in the past, so I'm familliar with the difference it makes. My tanks tell me it's *much* easier to tank for me when I have it.

I can live with the other changes, but the change to silent resolve is a major nerf.

My random thought is that they have made it no longer work with shadow spells, but would the healing aggro still be reduced by the talent? If so, then the aggro generated by VE will be no different now from before whereas the aggro generated on a single target by your shadow spells will, indeed, be greater than before. If this is true, then it is really just a single target aggro nerf which is less bad than the AoE aggro nerf that it could have been.

Klaus

Feb 25 2007, 06:53 PM

QUOTE(TheDragoon @ Feb 24 2007, 11:54 PM)

My random thought is that they have made it no longer work with shadow spells, but would the healing aggro still be reduced by the talent? If so, then the aggro generated by VE will be no different now from before whereas the aggro generated on a single target by your shadow spells will, indeed, be greater than before. If this is true, then it is really just a single target aggro nerf which is less bad than the AoE aggro nerf that it could have been.

Well, let's see - if VE is considered shadow (even though it's a heal) then this is an AoE nerf because only one talent appliest to it. But if it's not shadow, then there's really no change to the AoE aggro because Shadow Affinity wouldn't apply to it today. This would be a nice question to have answered, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it.

Either way, this is a still a nerf to me, because I used to be able to get -threat to both heals and damage for 8 talent points. Or, I could get less -threat with only 5. Now, if I want -threat to both, I have to spend all 8 points. The holy priest still gets their -threat to both for the same 5 they were spending before (not that holy priests need nerfing at all). So, if SR doesn't apply to VE, then I have a nasty choice to make - spend 5 points for -threat when I'm healing (which I do, but not horribly often) or find someplace else to move those points? Anyway, I'm rambling.

I find it annoying that they choose to nerf my ability to play in a group, while still leaving the warlocks and hunters massively overpowered for solo.

Mavfin

Feb 25 2007, 07:12 PM

QUOTE(Klaus @ Feb 25 2007, 12:53 PM)

I find it annoying that they choose to nerf my ability to play in a group, while still leaving the warlocks and hunters massively overpowered for solo.

Well, you have to leave easy mode in for some players, you know. Sure, warlocks and hunters aren't out of sight in raids, but hunters aren't *the* preferred farming class by accident. They're so uber solo, it's not even funny.

Warlock

Feb 25 2007, 08:02 PM

QUOTE(Mavfin @ Feb 25 2007, 10:34 AM)

We used ferals in raids when needed in 1.x. We should see them in 2.x, too. And, I saw a ton of posts by warriors that looked just like the above. Really, it'll all settle out. The sky hasn't fallen

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden

Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

TheDragoon

Feb 25 2007, 09:16 PM

QUOTE(Warlock @ Feb 25 2007, 12:02 PM)

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden
Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

Actually, there's another staff that drops in one of the Coilfang dungeons on heroic (I think it was the last boss in the Slave Pens, but it might have been the hydra in underbog that I remember seeing it listed for).

nobbie

Feb 25 2007, 09:34 PM

Earthwarden is nice; if I just wouldn't be too lazy to get the Cenarion Expedition rep up to Exalted

Artega

Feb 25 2007, 10:15 PM

QUOTE(Mirajj @ Feb 24 2007, 10:12 PM)

They've been screwing over PvE due to PvP whining for a long, long time. I don't see them stopping now.

And vice-versa. Until they declare the game either pure PvE or pure PvP, it's going to continue.

Brista

Feb 25 2007, 10:58 PM

QUOTE(nobbie @ Feb 24 2007, 07:10 PM)

Sigh, so true, Nobbie

I've put my level 70 Bear Druid on hold for now and will play around with other characters. Too disheartened to gear up any further

It's not that bears will suddenly become unable to tank. It's that it will be pointless to have the Druid do tanking when you have a Warrior available and there's always spare Warriors around

Tank spots are competed for and this patch hits Druids in so many ways

- less armour
- less life
- less threat
- less damage (we'll probably output comparable dps to Prot Warriors which is fine)
- even the Idol of Brutality gets nerfed for further threat reduction on our Swipes

Warriors with whom we compete for the raid tank spots
- more rage
- +1% crit which is more dps and rage
- thuunder clap which makes a great aoe tanking skill available without stance dancing and the consequent loss of mitigation and threat

It's not just the Druid nerfs which hurt us, it's the Warrior buffs which also hurt us since we are competing for the same spots

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

Trien

Feb 26 2007, 06:45 AM

QUOTE(TheDragoon @ Feb 25 2007, 02:16 PM)

Actually, there's another staff that drops in one of the Coilfang dungeons on heroic (I think it was the last boss in the Slave Pens, but it might have been the hydra in underbog that I remember seeing it listed for).

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic

. Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

lemekim

Feb 26 2007, 06:51 AM

QUOTE(Warlock @ Feb 25 2007, 08:02 PM)

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden
Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

One of the problems with the whole feral itemization right now (current patch) is that if Bear Druids truly got epic gear itemized specifically for tanking (like Warriors currently have), they would be quite above Warriors in actual mitigation. A lot of Druids use various blues and greens for tanking, yet achieve mitigation numbers comparable to well-geared Warriors (best mix of blues and epics).

So this nerf might actually serve as a precursor to some upcoming changes to feral itemization - a clean divide between actual tanking gear and DPS gear.

Alliera

Feb 26 2007, 12:59 PM

QUOTE(Trien @ Feb 26 2007, 07:45 AM)

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic

. Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

The Feral Staff of Lashing has 300 armor, +35 Str, +29 Agi, +33 Sta and +525 Feral AP. It's a drop from Heroic Botanica, which makes it more obtainable than the Staff of Natural Fury. The better stats (although it has less armor) also makes it roughly equal to Earthwarden with regards to tanking.

TheDragoon

Feb 26 2007, 03:36 PM

QUOTE(Trien @ Feb 25 2007, 10:45 PM)

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic

. Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

I guess I got those staves somewhat mixed up. The epic staff I was thinking of was the one Alliera posted. But Greatstaff of the Leviathan is also very, very good.

fractaled

Feb 26 2007, 10:18 PM

QUOTE(Brista @ Feb 25 2007, 10:58 PM)

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

If a Prot-warrior isn't your #1 choice for a raid tank, you have three options:
1) make it so that a prot-warrior is #1 for raid tanking
2) change the class so that they have another role in raids
3) ignore them and watch them all go away

Currently, a Prot warrior gives up a ton to tank. Horrible grinding potential, horrible PvP potential. It's obvious that they have to have a niche. Also, if bears are taking over that roll in their current gear (pre nerf), it means that they will be broken down the road when they do get gear -- and perhaps that is the reason for the current dearth of epic druid tanking gear.

Tal

Feb 26 2007, 10:56 PM

QUOTE(Brista @ Feb 25 2007, 05:58 PM)

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

That being said a feral druid doesn't give up as much in comparison to a protection warrior to spec for raids. All of the best talents for tanking and dps are in one tree. A protection warrior gives up DPS to do one job and only one job in raids just like a healing specc'd priest gives up a lot of their dps.

And on behalf of many warriors I reiterate: We never wanted druids nerfed but warriors buffed. Druids, paladins specc'd for tanking and arms/fury warriors should be of comparable effectiveness for tanking. Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

Brista

Feb 27 2007, 02:17 AM

QUOTE(fractaled @ Feb 26 2007, 10:18 PM)

If a Prot-warrior isn't your #1 choice for a raid tank, you have three options:
1) make it so that a prot-warrior is #1 for raid tanking
2) change the class so that they have another role in raids
3) ignore them and watch them all go away

Currently, a Prot warrior gives up a ton to tank. Horrible grinding potential, horrible PvP potential. It's obvious that they have to have a niche. Also, if bears are taking over that roll in their current gear (pre nerf), it means that they will be broken down the road when they do get gear -- and perhaps that is the reason for the current dearth of epic druid tanking gear.

Explain Resto Druids then

I also gave up a ton to heal when I was Resto. Effectively there was nothing to do except raid

Do we get a unique monopoly on healing in raids though? Do we heck

A Prot Warrior before this nerf gave up a lot to be a valid tank choice. Now they give up a lot to be the only tank choice

I don't buy the argument that Warriors require exclusivity to make the class worth playing. Lots of people roll Warriors and develop them as dps or pvpers. Does the fact that other classes can dps and pvp stop people rolling Warriors? I don't think so

People roll Warriors because they like Warriors. It is the heroic archtype. Not being able to heal is an advantage for Warriors because if you have a Warrior tank no one ever suggests you should respec Resto to be more useful

Blizzard have sold Druid tanks out. We were promised raid viability, we got it and now it's been taken off us again. I doubt we will get it back

In fact I think this is an underhand way to boost the number of raid healers. Just when raid healers were really fed up 3 months ago they promised us viability in a number of new and interesting ways to keep us interested in the characters then, realising that with the healers turning into tanks and dps they lacked healers, they're starting a campaign of eroding these alternative roles

With regard to the jack of all trades role it's simply not as much fun for me as tanking. Tactically I don't see a lot of point to it. It's not like many people can switch mid-fight from raid class tank to raid class healer simply because the roles are so gear-dependent. And most of the cases where people tout hybrids as being useful in raids can be addressed in a different way. If you have 6 mobs to tank and only 3 tanks they can take 2 each instead of turning 3 of your healers into additional tanks

As for the jack of all trades master of none argument I don't really buy it. Why don't we suck at healing if it's "unfair" for us to do anything well? And I certainly don't want to be the raid member who sucks at multiple roles since I was rather set on tanking well and it seems a poor alternative to do lots of things to a mediocre standard

I've had a fun day instancing with my Rogue, now level 61, my Druid however is now retired. Other people can do the hard work of tanking and healing I'm done for now. Too much hard work and too many kicks in the teeth. And at least this way I can vent some of my Druid frustrations on unwary pvp-flagged Alliance players

Warlock

Feb 27 2007, 06:22 AM

Prot warrior weakness at soloing and at doing damage in raids is almost always overstated. At 60 I was coming around the middle of the DPS pack with my 31 Prot warrior when raiding and that was before 12 rage uninterruptible slams. See some of the other threads in these forums for DPS of a deep prot build - it's surprisingly competitive.

Monkey

Feb 27 2007, 02:55 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 26 2007, 05:56 PM)

Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

Well, Druids have to spend a lot of time (as it is) educating people about our class. Pre-expansion, it was educating them about our range of abilities. In the Expansion, we have to educate people about our limitations. For example, Tal probably didn't mean, "Go from rogue DPS to holy priest healing in combat," by "heal in a pinch," but the popular view is that Druids basically can. People simply don't realize the effect our gear has on our abilities. And for feral druids--no one has a CLUE how much iLoTP heals.

(Hint: it's a lot. If I shift out of cat in some places, people die)

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

Legedi

Feb 27 2007, 03:29 PM

I'm just going to stick to the warrior changes. While I'm sad about the TF threat nerf, I knew it had to happen. I wish it would have happened when the expansion came out, and not after I've run a bunch of these instances already with it.

I am very excited about the Thunderclap buff to be able to use it in defensive stance. Back before I had a TF I used to do the stance dancing to keep it up on bosses that didn't hit too hard. But on bosses that did hit really hard it wasn't worth the risk, and we had other warriors keep it up. Now that I won't be using TF to tank I can keep it up my self.

Thunderclap will also help with tanking multiple mobs. While I never had any problems with multiple mobs TF and it's proc helped a lot there. Thunderclap will also end up migrating more damage than TF did because it will slow every mob (well up to 4) all the time. Thunderfury you had to wait for the proc, and only the current target got slowed.

I've already respeced to imp TC, and I've already picked up a new weapon to replace TF. So now I'm just waiting for the patch.

Lissa

Feb 27 2007, 03:31 PM

QUOTE(Monkey @ Feb 27 2007, 07:55 AM)

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

Funny, I think the general consensus of Lurkers running Karazhan is one of every class and a shadow priest.

I know my perferred setup for Karazhan would be the following:

Warlock with Demonic Sacrifice (it just seems to make certain fights a whole lot easier)
Mage
Druid with a mix of Feral and Resto
Shaman with a mix of Enhancement and Resto
Warrior with a mix of talents with about 15 to 20 points into Prot
2 Priests, one Holy/Disc or Disc/Holy and Shadow/Disc
Paladin with a mix of talents, probably lean toward Protection with a smattering in Retrib and Holy
Rogue
Hunter with either 31 points in Marksman or 33 points in Survival to up physical DPS (because there are several DPS check fights and a few fights where you encounter magic immune mobs).

TheDragoon

Feb 27 2007, 03:36 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 26 2007, 02:56 PM)

Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

This has been one of the things that I have the biggest problems with. Everyone always says that because it was true pre-2.0 but I don't think it is as valid anymore. Prot warriors can do pretty darn good DPS if they throw on some DPS gear with the addition of Focused Rage, Vitality and Devestate. They will not be quite as great as the other warrior DPS specs, but they are certainly no longer gimped as they were pre-2.0.

If protection spec'd warriors are the plain better tanks than the other choices, they WILL be the only option in the end-game unless the end-game is a complete joke. That is NOT the way this game should go and that is why I am of the opinion that any Paladin, Druid or Warrior who uses a tanking talent spec with the appropriate gear should be able to tank comparably. The Warrior will always have the extra little tricks that can help out (shield wall, extra magic damage reduction, silencing shield bash, last stand, etc.) with tanking but the base tanking statistics (mitigation and threat generation, primarily) should be similar for each of the tanking spec'd classes. I disagree that a warrior using a 41/20/0 spec should be just as good at tanking as a protection pally or a bear druid though I think that a hybrid build (such as 41/5/15) should be able to come close.

fractaled

Feb 27 2007, 08:50 PM

QUOTE(Brista @ Feb 27 2007, 02:17 AM)

Explain Resto Druids then

They've done a good job of making all the healing classes equally effective in different ways. They have yet to do this with tanking. (Although they seem to be giving Paladin's super AoE tanking).

QUOTE

I also gave up a ton to heal when I was Resto. Effectively there was nothing to do except raid

I'm not saying that healers don't sacrifice to raid, I'm saying that if a warrior *does* spec Prot, and is inferior to a druid tank, then a warrior should *never* spec Prot. Which leaves them the DPS role, which they are inferior to rogues in (or at least should be now).

QUOTE

Blizzard have sold Druid tanks out. We were promised raid viability, we got it and now it's been taken off us again. I doubt we will get it back

I think you're overreacting. I think the bonus threat reduction may be a bad idea by Blizzard (they seem to like changing 2 things at once when 1 would be sufficient). Other than that, druids will be fine for 5-mans, they'll be super off-tanks, and they'll be able to main tank if they dedicate themselves to it. (A prot warrior being better doesn't mean a druid can't do it).

QUOTE

As for the jack of all trades master of none argument I don't really buy it. Why don't we suck at healing if it's "unfair" for us to do anything well? And I certainly don't want to be the raid member who sucks at multiple roles since I was rather set on tanking well and it seems a poor alternative to do lots of things to a mediocre standard

The thing is, druids *are* worse healers in some ways (I really notice the lack of fade, shield, fort, and rez in 5-mans), it's just that it's fine if you have a resto specced druid. I'd say that feral druids *are* worse tanks than Prot warriors now, but you'll be fine with one.

I think it is fair that Blizzard included the cost of being a hybrid in your ability to specialize. At the end of the day, getting to 70 and all the rep grinds is the hardest part. If you can respec & get some new gear and totally change your play style to keep the game interesting, that is something worth having (unless you know you're dead-set on one style of play

).

Alliera

Feb 27 2007, 11:00 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 26 2007, 11:56 PM)

Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

That being said a feral druid doesn't give up as much in comparison to a protection warrior to spec for raids. All of the best talents for tanking and dps are in one tree. A protection warrior gives up DPS to do one job and only one job in raids just like a healing specc'd priest gives up a lot of their dps.

And on behalf of many warriors I reiterate: We never wanted druids nerfed but warriors buffed. Druids, paladins specc'd for tanking and arms/fury warriors should be of comparable effectiveness for tanking. Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

That's nothing but a load of wash. Arms/Fury warriors should NOT be equal to Feral druids or protection Paladins. I have a 60+ of each of the three tanking classes, and the winner when all three are specced tank has always been and will always be the Protection warrior--and that's just the way it should be. That doesn't mean a Feral druid should be relegated to be an off-tank only.

The Protection warrior should be the obvious choice, but a Feral druid or a Protection paladin (who, by the way, gives up healing and DPS in order to tank) should be the obvious replacement the second a Protection warrior isn't available, otherwise we might as well not bother to have them. A Feral druid is extremely dependant on gear to step in as main tank. Off-tanking doesn't require much, but tanking the big, hard-hitting bosses that warriors tank require an effort in gathering gear that warriors have never had to even contemplate.

Aside from that, Feral druid tanking itemization is so horrible that I got my ultimate tanking boots at 66, my ultimate tanking belt at 68, and my ultimate tanking bracers at 69 (the last two on the same questline, no less). Only one out of those three isn't green. I can get basically all my ultimate tanking gear save 2-3 pieces outside of raids. Once raiding starts, I get almost nothing... and the upgrades I'm talking about are the T5 Feral set, which basically has horrible stats for its ilevel with regards to tanking (it's just better than anything else).

QUOTE(Monkey @ Feb 27 2007, 03:55 PM)

Well, Druids have to spend a lot of time (as it is) educating people about our class. Pre-expansion, it was educating them about our range of abilities. In the Expansion, we have to educate people about our limitations. For example, Tal probably didn't mean, "Go from rogue DPS to holy priest healing in combat," by "heal in a pinch," but the popular view is that Druids basically can. People simply don't realize the effect our gear has on our abilities. And for feral druids--no one has a CLUE how much iLoTP heals.

(Hint: it's a lot. If I shift out of cat in some places, people die)

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

QFT. I cannot count the times I've felt myself forced to explain my capabilities and limitations to others.

Some of them go so far as to say that we are "better tanks than warriors", then in the next sentence add, "druids should never be MTs". Yeah, go figure.

Tal

Feb 27 2007, 11:10 PM

QUOTE(Alliera @ Feb 27 2007, 06:00 PM)

That's nothing but a load of wash. Arms/Fury warriors should NOT be equal to Feral druids or protection Paladins.

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

Mavfin

Feb 27 2007, 11:36 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 27 2007, 05:10 PM)

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

IMO, what I think Blizzard is trying to balance out is to put the 'tank' specs (druid/warrior/pally) ahead of the other specs in tanking. I.E. put a feral druid or prot pally ahead of the DPS warrior for tanking. The prot warrior will usually end up on top on the big hitters because their bag of tricks is bigger. However, there are nights the warrior MT(s) have RL obligations, and other assorted things that mean the next tank(s) have to step up and do the job. There's nothing I see to say that won't be a druid, or a pally in many situations. There will be bosses you want a druid on, etc. Druid MTs? That's up to the raid leaders.

NOTE: This is not to say that the DPS warriors won't get to tank, but they may not be the #1 option after the MT(s). Also, any druid or pally tanking in raids is always going to be held hostage to the dispelling/decursing/healing needs of the raid. They can do those, warriors can't, whether DPS or prot. If you're short healers or decursers or dispellers, you're probably going to use the extra warrior you have logged on, and keep the druid/pally around for other duties.

Tal

Feb 27 2007, 11:47 PM

QUOTE(Mavfin @ Feb 27 2007, 06:36 PM)

IMO, what I think Blizzard is trying to balance out is to put the 'tank' specs (druid/warrior/pally) ahead of the other specs in tanking. I.E. put a feral druid or prot pally ahead of the DPS warrior for tanking.

This makes no sense IMHO given the flexibility that a druid and paladin bring to a raid over a dps warrior. And yet Blizzard continually propogates the raiding instances with dps plate so its obvious that Blizzard sees raid groups bringing dps warriors to a raid. I'd say given the way that they've brought rage up, added more AOE threat for warriors and reduced Bear threat via swipe that Blizzard is trying to bring warriors/druids and paladins in line below protection warriors for tanking.

Mavfin

Feb 27 2007, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 27 2007, 05:47 PM)

This makes no sense IMHO given the flexibility that a druid and paladin bring to a raid over a dps warrior. And yet Blizzard continually propogates the raiding instances with dps plate so its obvious that Blizzard sees raid groups bringing dps warriors to a raid. I'd say given the way that they've brought rage up, added more AOE threat for warriors and reduced Bear threat via swipe that Blizzard is trying to bring warriors/druids and paladins in line below protection warriors for tanking.

See my note, Tal

There will always be times that the druid or pally needs to be healing/dispelling/decursing instead of tanking, so the DPS warrior gets to tank anyway. Flexibility is the biggest thing about a hybrid like a druid, or even a DPS warrior.

Alliera

Feb 28 2007, 12:08 AM

QUOTE(Tal @ Feb 28 2007, 12:10 AM)

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

To be perfectly honest, I think I have given this issue quite a bit more thought than you.

-Druids cannot tank unless specced Feral.
-Paladins cannot tank unless specced Protection.
-Warriors can tank regardless of spec, though they are superior to all other classes when specced Protection.

As soon as you require more than 3 tanks, the Arms/Fury warriors are there to step in. Might I remind you that Naxxramas required no less than 8 warriors?

No, it doesn't happen often. Why on earth should it? The Arms/Fury warriors specced DPS, and they do it well. Feral druids specced melee, and they do it well, be it DPS or tanking. Let me reiterate: I specced to tank. Why should they bring me if I only do sporadious tanking and DPS and a bit of support healing? In your world, an Arms/Fury warrior can replace me in every aspect but healing, and so I'd be more useful as a Restoration druid.

We have a new raiding scene: 25 mans. That is on average three per class.

Here's an example raid composition,
-3 Warriors. 1 is Protection, and is main tank. 2 are Arms/Fury. Depending on encounters, the Arms/Fury warriors does DPS or tanks.
-3 Paladins. 1 is Protection, and is main tank 2. 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Protection paladin heals or tanks.
-2 Rogues. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-2 Mages. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Druids. 1 is Feral, and is main tank 3. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Balance. Depending on encounters, the Feral druid does DPS, tanks or heals and the Balance druid does DPS or heals.
-3 Priests. 1 is Shadow, 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Shadow priest does DPS or heals.
-3 Warlocks. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Shamans. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Enhancement, 1 is Elemental. Depending on encounters, the Enhancement shaman does DPS or heals, and the Elemental shaman does DPS or heals.
-3 Hunters. Does almost nothing but DPS.

So on encounters that require more than 3 tanks, the Arms/Fury warriors step in. On encounters that require only 1 tank, the druid does DPS and the paladin heals, unless more healing is required, in which case the druid also heals. On encounters that require more than 1 tank, but also requires more healing, the druid and the paladin heals and the Arms/Fury warriors tank.

If Arms/Fury warriors are equal tanks to druids and paladins who specced to tank, you can scrap them entirely and respec them to healers--or maybe even remove one and replace it with a DPS class (as it can easily be argued that one of them specced healing would replace both of them).

Tal

Feb 28 2007, 12:24 AM