http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=675

So............

1) What makes Priests the "best" healing class is that we have good single-target heals, a HoT, and powerful group heals all wrapped into one class. When 5-manning, Priests just plain dominate the healing department.

2) However, in raiding environments, group heals are almost *never* used. This is why Priests complain; Druid HoTs beat Priest HoTs, Paladins have great single-target healing, and Druids/Paladins bring all sorts of utility that Priests don't. With Paladin buffs as uber as they are, it's better to bring multiple Paladins than multiple Priests because they stack while we don't.

3) The 2pc Tier 6 bonus is a buff to Prayer of Healing.

4) Tier 6 gear is obtained via raiding.

Anyone else see a hole in this?

*facepalm*

Who comes up with these bonuses, anyway?

-Bolty

I see what you're saying, but it might be too early to worry about tier 6 loot. It's not in game yet at least, it could change.

And on the bright side, tier 5 priest gear has a 4-pc bonus that increases our single-target healing, great for MT healing:
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=663

And for tier 6, we get a clever 2-pc bonus for MT and spot healing, and a 4-pc bonus that makes Renew very attractive to have ticking on people:
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=665

Regarding the "stacking the raid" argument against bringing priests, I think it clearly makes sense to have at least 2, one for fort and improved divine spirit, and a shadow priest for VE/VT/misery. Few classes stack as well as paladins, but IMHO priests are great flexible healers no matter what.

Excellent question.

I look at the DPS Warrior bonuses and I'm like huh? -3 Rage on Cleave for 2pc

Tier 5 2pc is +100AP for 5sec after an Overpower and -5 Rage for BT/MS for 4pc. Those are some nice bonuses.

Now +5% dmg for 4pc on Tier 6 is really nice. But they definately have some strange ideas about 2pc set bonuses for some of the classes.

-WimpySmurf

To be honest, neither of those buffs look 'playstyle-changing', at least not the way that say, the priest T5 bonus 'get 100 mana for topping the tank off with a Greater Heal' could be.

It may be that the intent for T6 to have enough stats that priests will be willing to forego the gimmick bonuses.

http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=676

Kitty bonuses.... when 95% of ferals are bear.

Objection!

Incarnate is Tier 4.

Avatar Raiment is Tier 5.

If it's like the other "feral" sets Bear *would* be seen dead in it, so I'd hope for kitty bonuses

You got a giggle out of me for that one. They say they will be looking over bear epic set itemization. It might be nice to have a justification for taking more then 1 piece of T4.

Most feral druids I've seen are kitties. Why be a bear when Pallies and Warriors are doing the tanking?

I've probably done more runs with bear tanks than warrior tanks right now. Pally tanks (*huggles Moors) I've done a bit more than warriors, but less than druids. Well, since the expansion anyway.

In what context? If you see somebody out questing/grinding, sure they are in cat form. In 5 mans, I try to be as flexible as possible to get the group moving quickly. I've only catted 4-5 times, serverwide tanks are in short supply but DPS is falling out of the trees. All the pallies that I know who have hit 70 are rerolls who went with the idea of being holy for ease of getting into a raid. Bears bring a few major advantages in certain situations over warriors, and if you figure you want one tree, there isn't really any room in a 25man for a dedicated cat. Now I do go cat form on a number of encounters, but I wouldn't take a set piece token for those.

That's just weird! I have been on ONE run where a bear tanked, and have never been on a run tanked by a paladin...

Pretty much. If a Druid goes to a 5-man it's probably either as tank or as healer (and the latter only if there is a resser in the group already). Thinking of the random invites I've had from people that don't know me I'd guess at about 70% "please come tank" and 30% "please come heal" since BC.

Hehe. That wouldn't have anything to do with you being a prot warrior.

Your comment made me think of something else odd. Every run (of high level content) I've done has had a hunter on it, but so many people in the guild keep saying they only rarely have a hunter with them. Clearly this needs more investigation.

Lol... there are WAAAAYYYY more bear tanks then warrior tanks on my server... seems like there is one on pretty much every run I've been on

I tanked for Seiki (one of our best protection warriors) once, and I'm only 33 resto/28 feral...

He wanted to see how much DPS he could do. (it actually turned out to be a fair bit)

I actually get "please come nuke" after Paladin healers see how nice the added crit is.

Good point - do you get that from randoms or just people that know you? I've never had it, but I've had "you don't have to tank this time" from friends.

How does Moonkins 5% compare to how much a Shadow Priest helps Paladin healing? I know both are good but haven't done the math for just how good each is.

Shadow Priest definitely wins in terms of healing aid through the mana supply. I dare say a Moonkin brings more to the table in terms of healing power when shifted out, a combat rez, and crowd control. I get the requests to come dps in an instance from friends and anyone with whom I've pugged in the Moonkin role.

In a raid where roles are more defined and there is less (or no) need to switch and fill a need, a Moonkin loses ground. But a Druid who knows what he's doing can turn heads and change minds.

That 5% gets better the higher a Paladin's spell crit is to start with. If he has 15% crit then it changes his spellcasting by making only 80% of his heals cost mana instead of 85%.

The highest spell crit I've encountered in game was 41%. If you have that much on a healing pally then it means that adding a Moonkin aura means only 54% of his regular heals cost mana. When you bear in mind he can also make one mana free every 2 minutes that's getting pretty imba

Also he can play interesting mana regen games with the 5 second rule. If two crit in a row then he's probably into high regen so he can pause the next heal or Divine Favour it to keep his regen going

So we have a healer who is outside the five second rule for a much longer time than the average healer, who has 50% innate healing threat reduction, and has low cost heals plus they get Improved Improved Fade (bubble). Pretty tasty!

I wouldn't compare it to fade since it's on a 5min cooldown and is typically cast on a target other than the Paladin since, with their innate heal threat reduction, they typically don't need it.

Not true. Illumination doesn't actually make your spell free, it just refunds the full mana cost after it crits. Which is to say, you cast it, the cast completes, you lose mana, then you gain mana back if you crit. Paladins are inside the 5 second rule constantly.

Ah I see, what a shame, well it would be rather over-powered I suppose

They have two bubble abilities one which is cast on other people and stops physical damage while zeroing threat and one which is cast on themselves and stops all damage while zeroing threat

In a raid context if a Paladin healer were to draw threat Divine Shield is comparable to Fade (instant threat reduction) but better

I don't believe either bubble actually reduces threat, it's just that mobs ignore immune targets. Which doesn't change your point (after all, fade gives it's threat back when it's over). Just clarifying in case of "but I read that bubble reduces threat" posts down the track

Paladins do not have an innate healing threat reduction as far as I know.

As for pugs... I've been going mostly as a tank. Most of the time that I get to go kitty is with guild groups. I enjoy pretty much all aspects of being a druid, though--although my healing gear isn't good enough for me to main-heal instances--so I don't really mind either way.

Don't they have a third bubble? (divine protection) or is the 5min cooldown linked with divine shield?

As for healing threat. I'm pretty sure paladin heals only generate half the threat of other classes heals.

Paladin heals have a built in 50% threat reduction.

They are both on the same cooldown.

Correct, neither immunity has any effect on threat. This is important mostly for Blessing of Protection, which only blocks physical damage. If the mob has an activated non-physical attack (distinguished from passive attacks like immolation aura) it will stay on the Protected character. For example, Blessing of Protection doesn't change Hydross the Unstable's targeting in the least (he has no physical attacks).

Any numbers to back up this claim?

I've seen it stated many times, but I've never actually seen any proof.

The main reason why I'm skeptic on this point is that just after 2.0, we used a Paladin tank on the Nefarian trash--and all he did was heal himself.

Righteous Fury gives +60% threat on all Paladin Holy spells. With 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury, the threat increase is 90%. He probably had Improved Righteous Fury active, making his threat higher than that of the other healers.

Right, I had neglected to take that into account. However, all that proves is that the Nefarian trash-fight is possible even with a base low threat-modifier. It doesn't put any weight on the -50% threat arguments. I still haven't seen any evidence that it exists.

That's interesting

Is it possible for a Paladin tank to tank a mob that uses both physical and magic attacks with BoP on?

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9258 is a good summary of how threat is believed to work

Regarding heal tanking with Improved Righteous Fury I believe that threat is 0.5 per point healed (base) * 0.5 (innate paladin healing threat modifier) * 1.9 (Improved Righteous Fury modifier) which puts it just a tad behind non-talented heal threat from the other classes

Well, sure. But BoP lasts for ten seconds on a five-minute cooldown (you can talent it down to 3 min), and during that time you can't make physical attacks (for Alliance, that means your Holy Vengeance is likely going to fall off). On appropriate mobs, you can give yourself a ten-second breather at the cost of pretty much all your threat generation (you can judge one seal).

Frankly, there's no need for the Paladin to be tanking. You can BoP anyone, after all. Of course, for warriors and druids, it really does cut off all your threat generation, which is not a good thing.

Much smarter to do the ol' Divine Shield + Righteous Defense. Just cancel the bubble when the taunt debuff wears off.

Thanks, Brista. If the author of KTM says the same, that's good enough for me.

That probably depends on what the primary attack of the mob is. If it's a melee mob with occasional spells, it will turn to someone else. If it's a spellcaster who only melees if his spells are locked out, then you should be able to.

Why don't you use Prayer of Healing while raiding? It's one of my favorite spells.