The Lurker Lounge Forums > Patch 2.1.2 preliminary notes

Concillian

Jun 6 2007, 10:56 PM

Primarily a "here is season 2 arena" patch, but has a few other changes. Especially note the PvP trinket changes, shadowfiend fix (again), and misdirection fix. Small enough that all the notes fit in one post =P

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...patchnotes.html

CODE

World of Warcraft PTR Patch 2.1.2

The latest patch notes can always be found at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

General

    * Arena and Honor Rewards: As part of the inauguration of Season 2, the costs of all Arena items and Honor items has been reduced.
    * Improved Mend Pet, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison no longer play sounds when there is nothing to dispel.
    * Players can no longer fail with skinning at maximum skill.
    * Spellcloth: Creating spellcloth will once again only summon one Angered Nether-wraith.
    * Some new cooking recipes are available from Kylene in Shattrath City.
    * A recipe for a superior resilience gem has been added and is rumored to be held by the residents of Halaa.
    * Procs: Most procs are set to trigger only from spells which cost mana, but inadvertently disallowed spells which cost a percentage of base mana. That bug has been fixed and so such spells will now trigger many procs they did not previously trigger.

Druids

    * Druids in Swift Flight form can no longer loot herb nodes.
    * Force of Nature: This spell will no longer causes players it is cast on to enter combat with nearby creatures. All of the treants summoned will now attack a neutral creature they are summoned on.
    * Tree of Life: The bonus healing aura from this talent will reactivate when a Banish effect wears off a Druid in Tree Form.

Hunters

    * Fixed bug with Misdirection where sometimes only two attacks were redirected instead of three.
    * Entrapment: This talent will no longer causes Hunter to stand up or stop eating and drinking when it procs.
    * Improved Mend Pet: This ability will no longer cause Hunters to stand or to interrupt eating and drinking.
    * Poison Spit: These abilities will now appear in the correct order in the pet training menu.
    * Scatter Shot: This ability will now trigger Thrill of the Hunt.
    * Thunderstomp: These abilities will now appear in the correct order in the pet training menu.

Mages

    * Molten Armor: This buff can now proc when the Mage is sitting.

Paladins

    * Corrected the amount of damage done by Seal of Vengeance on a target affected by Judgement of Crusader.
    * Improved Concentration Aura: This ability now correctly reduces the duration of silence and interrupt effects by 30%. In addition, the reduction in duration of silence and interrupt effects from this ability will no longer stack with other such reductions.
    * Judgement of Blood: Effects which increase your damage by a percentage will no longer cause Paladins to take excessive damage from casting this spell.
    * Seal of Blood: Effects which increase your damage by a percentage will no longer cause Paladins to take excessive damage from this spell's procs.

Priests

    * Feedback: This buff can now proc when the Priest is sitting.
    * Shadowfiend: This creature will now reset to full health when it is summoned. It will also automatically attack your current enemy target when it is summoned.
    * Surge of Light: The buff from Surge of Light will no longer prevent Inner Focus's charge from being consumed. In addition, it is no longer possible to get two free Smites when this ability procs.
    * Touch of Weakness: This spell can now trigger Surge of Light when it does critical strikes.

Rogues

    * Sword Specialization: The change to Sword Specialization making its extra attacks appear in yellow has been reverted. Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack. They will no longer reset the swing time of your weapon.

Shaman

    * Focused Mind: This ability has been changed to reduce the duration of silence and interrupt effects, rather than increase resistance to them.
    * Frostbrand Weapon Rank 5: The damage on this spell was reduced slightly such that it will never do more damage than Frostbrand Rank 6.
    * Lightning Shield: Procs from this buff will no longer cause neutral town guards to attack the Shaman. In addition, Nightmare Vine will no longer cause charges of this buff to be consumed.

Warriors

    * Overpower dims on the action bar when the player is affected by disarm spells.
    * Sword Specialization: The change to Sword Specialization making its extra attacks appear in yellow has been reverted. Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack. They will no longer reset the swing time of your weapon. Rage awarded will be calculated by damage dealt as with any normal auto-attack.

Items

    * PvP Trinkets: Insignia of the Alliance, Insignia of the Horde, Medallion of the Alliance, and Medallion of the Horde have all been redesigned. The trinkets for all classes now have the same effect: Dispels all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.
    * Many raid items have had their art improved.
    * Clefthoof Mace: This item's name is now spelled correctly.
    * Crystalweave Bracers: This item and its depleted counterpart now have spell critical strike rating as intended.
    * Ebon Mask: This item now has sound when moved in a player's inventory.
    * Eye of Magtheridon: This trinket will now trigger when a Judgement of Vengeance is resisted.
    * Relentless Earthstorm Diamond: The bonus damage to critical strikes from this metagem now applies to all types of damage, not just physical.
    * Skyguard Rations: The stamina and spirit buff from this food has been decreased, as well as its duration.
    * Talisman of the Breaker: The reduction in duration of silence and interrupt effects from this item will no longer stack with other such reductions.
    * Vestments of the Devout Set: The damage absorb set bonus on this set will now absorb only 350 damage, matching its intended design and tooltip.
    * Voidheart Raiment Set: The two-piece set bonus will now trigger from Death Coil.
    * Voidstar Talisman: This item will now give the correct amount of resistance to Warloock pets.

Quests

    * Vim'gol the Vile now has a 30 second respawn cooldown.
    * A problem with interrupting Vim'gol the Vile's Unholy Growth spell has been fixed.
    * Casting bar text was added when gathering a Corrupted Flower during the quest, "Botanical Legwork".
    * A distance-related issue was resolved when attempting to use the Fel Crystalforges at Forge Camp: Terror and Forge Camp: Wrath in the Blade's Edge Mountains to create 5 Unstable Elixirs of the Beast.
    * A problem that could result in Obsidia, Rivendark, Insidion, and Furywing not responding to their respective dragon eggs being used has been resolved.
    * Sky Sergeant Vanderlip at the Skyguard Outpost in the Blade's Edge Mountains will no longer display her Exalted faction gossip to those who have not attained that faction rank.
    * All classes will now properly get credit for siphoning the crystal in the quest "Bloodgem Crystals".
    * Players will no longer fail to summon Insidion and Obsidia if the dragons are in combat when a player summons them.

Dungeons and Raids

    * Auchindoun: Sethekk Halls
          o Time-Lost Controllers no longer remove buffs from players who are charmed.
          o Heroic Mode: Anzu, the Raven God may no longer be pulled far away from the location where he is summoned.
          o Heroic Mode: Anzu's Spell Bomb is now a curse and he will no longer charge.
          o Heroic Mode: The quantity and health of Minions of Anzu that spawn have been reduced.
          o Heroic Mode: The frequency and duration of many of his abilities have been retuned to make the fight more forgiving.
    * Auchindoun: Shadow Labyrinth
          o The Cabal Summoner, Cabal Executioner, and Cabal Spellbinder mobs that interact with Murmur in the Screaming Hall in Auchindoun Shadow Labyrinth will no longer sometimes freeze their animations upon death.
    * Black Temple
          o It is no longer possible to engage the Shade of Akama without completing phase 1 of the encounter.
          o Ashtongue Spiritbinders may now cast heals on Ashtongue Sorcerors, Channelers, and the Shade of Akama.
          o The Illidan Stormrage fight encounter has received additional tuning and improvements.
    * Caverns of Time: Mount Hyjal
          o The number of preliminary waves before each boss in the Caverns of Time: Battle for Mount Hyjal event has been reduced from 12 to 8, and some of the larger waves have fewer creatures than before.
    * Karazhan
          o The door leading to the Celestial Watch in Karazhan now starts open, and Netherspite does not path so close to the door.
          o The damage dealt by Netherspite's Nether Breath has been reduced.
    * Tempest Keep: Mechanar
          o Nethermancer Sepethrea's Raging Flames should now periodically change their targets in Heroic mode.

Interface

    * Fixed an issue with some AddOns where dropdown menus go away after showing the world map.
    * Fixed some Lua errors on /castsequence macros with conditionals.

World Environment

    * Chief Overseer Mudlump, Dragonmaw Pitfighter, Forgus, Goblin Merc, Gug, Horus, Lost Torranche, Officer Jaxon, Overlord Mor'ghor, Rumbpus, Telaari Jailor and Uriku: These creatures are no longer lootable.
    * Darbel Montrose: This creature now always drops at least a good quality item.
    * Lost Torranche: This creature is now skinnable.
    * Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer: This buff will no longer give excessive critical strike rating to low-level characters.
    * The Twilight Ridge: Burning Legion creatures in this region will now drop Marks of Kil'jaeden, Fel Armaments, and Oshu'gun Crystal Powder Samples.

Xame

Jun 7 2007, 12:15 AM

OMG. A patch trying to fix bugs instead of adding a ton of new content. Also interesting is the BT re-tuning to give the elite guilds more work. I'm sure it won't take them long but I wonder if it will take some of the T6 gear to get the job done this time.

swirly

Jun 7 2007, 12:56 AM

QUOTE

Skyguard Rations: The stamina and spirit buff from this food has been decreased, as well as its duration.

Nooooo! Don't take my beautiful purchasable stamina food!

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 01:03 PM

QUOTE(Concillian @ Jun 6 2007, 06:56 PM)

* Arena and Honor Rewards: As part of the inauguration of Season 2, the costs of all Arena items and Honor items has been reduced.

Yay! Or so I thought, until I read further ...

QUOTE

* Sword Specialization: The change to Sword Specialization making its extra attacks appear in yellow has been reverted. Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack. They will no longer reset the swing time of your weapon.

Good change, as otherwise Sword Spec was vastly superior to any other weapon spec for dual wielders - an offhand procing a mainhand, non-dual-wield miss penalty, non-glancable attack is a little ridiculous. Now it just procs a mainhand attack.

QUOTE

* PvP Trinkets: Insignia of the Alliance, Insignia of the Horde, Medallion of the Alliance, and Medallion of the Horde have all been redesigned. The trinkets for all classes now have the same effect: Dispels all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.

Wondering if this was truly all abilities or just those that were previously dispellable, I wasn't sure what to think. Seeing this:

QUOTE

Yes, the trinkets will remove all "movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character." That includes Cyclone as you lose control of your character. The phrasing in quotes can be taken quite literally.

I hate this change. No, let me rephrase that. I absolutely despise this change and will be completely unsatisfied with this arena patch, which I was hoping would address the real imbalances in Arena play (hello Warrior/Paladin).

Sap, Blind, and Gouge. One is extremely hard to pull off and easily counterable (just enter combat), one is on a long cooldown and already dispellable, and one takes an exorbitant amount of energy and a decent cooldown considering it's removed on any damage. All just received a huge nerf. Even my stuns are now screwed.

I thought I hated Warrior/Paladin before. Now I won't even win versus a bad team, only completely a moronic Warrior/Paladin team will lose. I can't believe Blizzard thought this change would be beneficial without a complete rebalance of classes that absolutely depend on their limited CC.

Tal

Jun 7 2007, 01:13 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 09:03 AM)

Sap, Blind, and Gouge. One is extremely hard to pull off and easily counterable (just enter combat), one is on a long cooldown and already dispellable, and one takes an exorbitant amount of energy and a decent cooldown considering it's removed on any damage.

I thought I hated Warrior/Paladin before. Now I won't even win versus a bad team, only completely a moronic Warrior/Paladin team will lose.

Other side of the coin and keep in mind I don't run with an arena team on Sharanna.

I HATE being sapped in a battleground. Sure I could blow my shield to remove it so I can keep healing my team mates but that usually just signals a rogue to go nuts and stun lock me down to zero. I will admit that I haven't had a rogue blind me but between all the other stuns and interrupts a rogue has the only survival tools I have against a rogue is to blow my shield and if I'm very lucky on my timing - Blessing of protection one being on a five minute cooldown the other on a talented 3 minute cooldown.

I realize that this has no bearing on your specific issues when it comes to 2 vs 2 arenas but I'm cheering this change. The only thing I can offer in battlegrounds is to heal the dps (usually warriors, rogues and warlocks) long enough for them to take down the opposition and maybe I'm just a n00b but any competent rogue can lock me down for as long as he wants...

Legedi

Jun 7 2007, 01:18 PM

While you may hate a warrior/paladin combo in 2vs2 I hate a two rogue team in anything. Not that one tinket use will change that much. But when you have more than one rogue throwing around blinds, stuns, possibly sap at the start it's really REALLY annoying.

"limited CC" I don't think applies to rogues. Classes that this will hurt the most will probably be hunters with one freeze trap every 30 seconds. or Warlocks and DC.

Of course this is a hug buff to warriors. But mostly in 1vs1 situations. A well supported warrior can already get out of most CC.

Alliera

Jun 7 2007, 01:56 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 03:03 PM)

I hate this change. No, let me rephrase that. I absolutely despise this change and will be completely unsatisfied with this arena patch, which I was hoping would address the real imbalances in Arena play (hello Warrior/Paladin).

Sap, Blind, and Gouge. One is extremely hard to pull off and easily counterable (just enter combat), one is on a long cooldown and already dispellable, and one takes an exorbitant amount of energy and a decent cooldown considering it's removed on any damage. All just received a huge nerf. Even my stuns are now screwed.

I thought I hated Warrior/Paladin before. Now I won't even win versus a bad team, only completely a moronic Warrior/Paladin team will lose. I can't believe Blizzard thought this change would be beneficial without a complete rebalance of classes that absolutely depend on their limited CC.

It's a trinket. It's not as if it can be spammed. If they use it to remove one of your limited CCs, they can't use it for the rest.

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 02:40 PM

QUOTE(Alliera @ Jun 7 2007, 09:56 AM)

It's a trinket. It's not as if it can be spammed. If they use it to remove one of your limited CCs, they can't use it for the rest.

It's easy for all the classes that have repeatable CC to keep saying this. Nothing a Rogue does is repeatable.

Legedi

Jun 7 2007, 02:48 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 10:40 AM)

It's easy for all the classes that have repeatable CC to keep saying this. Nothing a Rogue does is repeatable.

But a rogue has a backup for everything. Just off the top of my head abilities that can be used to control enemies: sap, cheap shot, kidney shot, gouge, blind. Even if one or two can be countered at once it doesn't mean others won't work.

I think the points of the change is it is harder to either chain the same CC ability, or chain different CC abilities.

I'm hoping the trinket will work with MC. Nothing is more frustrating than watching myself run off a cliff

.

lemekim

Jun 7 2007, 02:50 PM

QUOTE(Legedi @ Jun 7 2007, 01:18 PM)

While you may hate a warrior/paladin combo in 2vs2 I hate a two rogue team in anything. Not that one tinket use will change that much. But when you have more than one rogue throwing around blinds, stuns, possibly sap at the start it's really REALLY annoying.

"limited CC" I don't think applies to rogues. Classes that this will hurt the most will probably be hunters with one freeze trap every 30 seconds. or Warlocks and DC.

Of course this is a hug buff to warriors. But mostly in 1vs1 situations. A well supported warrior can already get out of most CC.

It might actually be a nerf to Warriors in group PvP since now every class can break Intimidating Shout, which is on 3 minute cooldown. And don't forget that this now becomes an alternative way to break Hamstring, and the much maligned Mace/Intercept stuns as well.

The only class that gets strictly positive benefit from this change is the Shaman class, which previously suffered not only from complete lack of CC, but also from bad counter choices on their PvP trinket. And really, they needed this change.

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 02:58 PM

[quote name='lemekim' date='Jun 7 2007, 10:50 AM' post='131047']
It might actually be a nerf to Warriors in group PvP since now every class can break Intimidating Shout, which is on 3 minute cooldown. And don't forget that this now becomes an alternative way to break Hamstring, and the much maligned Mace/Intercept stuns as well. [/quote]
[/quote]

Color me impressed, a warrior now has to spend 30 Rage (Trinket + Improved Sprint) instead of 20 (Improved Sprint) to permanently keep me away from the Paladin.

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 03:24 PM

QUOTE(Legedi @ Jun 7 2007, 10:48 AM)

But a rogue has a backup for everything. Just off the top of my head abilities that can be used to control enemies: sap, cheap shot, kidney shot, gouge, blind. Even if one or two can be countered at once it doesn't mean others won't work.

First off, if any character dies because they were simply stunned by a rogue (cheap shot and/or kidney shot), either they don't have enough stamina/resilience or they're not getting the support they need. Everyone forgets these all cost energy, they're all on cooldown, and as of this patch they're all easily counterable.

Sap hard to get out of? Don't get sapped. It's easier than people think: get in combat. Congratulations, you're immune to sap. Blind? It's a poison, treat it as such. It also costs a reagent. Gouge? The only time I can effectively use gouge as a CC, and not simply as an interrupt, is versus Warrior/Healer. It slows down DPS on both sides for a short while.

So I have all these supposed great options at my disposal if one is countered in some way. Here's how the match goes down, though. If I'm lucky, or waste my Sprint, I get one Sap off a match. Either my healer's getting beat badly or I'm trying to prevent support, so my Blind gets spent. My stuns are always on cooldown, and versus a warrior my Gouge always is too. I take a spike of damage so I Vanish to get a small chance to recover. Evasion gets burned in all but pure caster fights, while Cloak of Shadows gets burned in all but pure melee fights.

I end a night of 10 matches down 10 Blinding Powder and 8 or 9 Flash Powder. I'm already using all my tricks in the vast majority of matches, and now you're taking my most reliable one, the one that costs a reagent, and guaranteeing that everyone can remove it.

QUOTE

I think the points of the change is it is harder to either chain the same CC ability, or chain different CC abilities.

Yes, that's the point. Psychologically, losing control of your character, even for half a second, is more annoying than most events. I'd be glad they're finally giving players the option to choose one source to remove, but they introduced no other balance changes in this patch. Some classes (rogue, druid) are much more reliant on control than others (warrior, paladin), and it's not a coincidence that those happened to be among the weakest classes in the higher rungs.

The strongest just got stronger.

Lissa

Jun 7 2007, 03:28 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 07:40 AM)

It's easy for all the classes that have repeatable CC to keep saying this. Nothing a Rogue does is repeatable.

A rogue also has the largest repetoire of CCs, you have stun, disorient, and incapcitate. What other class has this variety of CC? Also, your DR on your stuns is very short, a rogue that has their timing down and spec'd into subtlety can lock down another a non-plate wearer from full health to death if the other person gets no help just by using your variety of different CCs at the right times to get rid of your DR on those abilities.

Lissa

Jun 7 2007, 03:29 PM

QUOTE(Legedi @ Jun 7 2007, 06:18 AM)

"limited CC" I don't think applies to rogues. Classes that this will hurt the most will probably be hunters with one freeze trap every 30 seconds. or Warlocks and DC.

No, the class this hurts the most is Priest. 30 second cooldown on an instant fear. As if Priests weren't already sitting ducks...

Alliera

Jun 7 2007, 03:30 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 04:40 PM)

It's easy for all the classes that have repeatable CC to keep saying this. Nothing a Rogue does is repeatable.

Diminishing returns.

Monkey

Jun 7 2007, 03:33 PM

QUOTE

* PvP Trinkets: Insignia of the Alliance, Insignia of the Horde, Medallion of the Alliance, and Medallion of the Horde have all been redesigned. The trinkets for all classes now have the same effect: Dispels all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.

I gotta say, it's pretty annoying that it applies to cyclone; that takes my max CC time from 10 seconds to 5. But if it lets me out of hunter traps, then it's a fair deal.

Legedi

Jun 7 2007, 03:34 PM

QUOTE(Lissa @ Jun 7 2007, 11:29 AM)

No, the class this hurts the most is Priest. 30 second cooldown on an instant fear. As if Priests weren't already sitting ducks...

The reason I didn't say priests is because their CC already doesn't work very well. worthless again warriors, undead, shamans. When ever I see a priest fear in PvP I'd guess that fear gets broken within a second or two 75% of the time.

lemekim

Jun 7 2007, 05:08 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 03:24 PM)

First off, if any character dies because they were simply stunned by a rogue (cheap shot and/or kidney shot), either they don't have enough stamina/resilience or they're not getting the support they need. Everyone forgets these all cost energy, they're all on cooldown, and as of this patch they're all easily counterable.

Sap hard to get out of? Don't get sapped. It's easier than people think: get in combat. Congratulations, you're immune to sap. Blind? It's a poison, treat it as such. It also costs a reagent. Gouge? The only time I can effectively use gouge as a CC, and not simply as an interrupt, is versus Warrior/Healer. It slows down DPS on both sides for a short while.

So I have all these supposed great options at my disposal if one is countered in some way. Here's how the match goes down, though. If I'm lucky, or waste my Sprint, I get one Sap off a match. Either my healer's getting beat badly or I'm trying to prevent support, so my Blind gets spent. My stuns are always on cooldown, and versus a warrior my Gouge always is too. I take a spike of damage so I Vanish to get a small chance to recover. Evasion gets burned in all but pure caster fights, while Cloak of Shadows gets burned in all but pure melee fights.

I end a night of 10 matches down 10 Blinding Powder and 8 or 9 Flash Powder. I'm already using all my tricks in the vast majority of matches, and now you're taking my most reliable one, the one that costs a reagent, and guaranteeing that everyone can remove it.
Yes, that's the point. Psychologically, losing control of your character, even for half a second, is more annoying than most events. I'd be glad they're finally giving players the option to choose one source to remove, but they introduced no other balance changes in this patch. Some classes (rogue, druid) are much more reliant on control than others (warrior, paladin), and it's not a coincidence that those happened to be among the weakest classes in the higher rungs.

The strongest just got stronger.

Maybe if you actually specced for PvP, like the Warrior who you are complaining about, you would have more success.

Congratulations, you have discovered that Rogues are impossible to balance properly because of the variety of the cooldowns they have available - they make far too much difference in 2v2, but not nearly enough in 5v5. Now, with the change to the trinket, this advantage is slightly diminished in 2v2, which means you can look forward to a buff, which should improve your predicament in in all areas, including 5v5.

Concillian

Jun 7 2007, 07:26 PM

QUOTE(lemekim @ Jun 7 2007, 10:08 AM)

Maybe if you actually specced for PvP, like the Warrior who you are complaining about, you would have more success.

Congratulations, you have discovered that Rogues are impossible to balance properly because of the variety of the cooldowns they have available - they make far too much difference in 2v2, but not nearly enough in 5v5. Now, with the change to the trinket, this advantage is slightly diminished in 2v2, which means you can look forward to a buff, which should improve your predicament in in all areas, including 5v5.

Exactly. I saw Quarks responses initially, and for a second I thought I was back on the WoW boards. I know he is more knowledgeable than that.

One thing I discovered in my arena ventures is that warriors absolutely, positively suck in arenas without Mortal Strike.

Based on my PvP experience with rogues at 60 (my rogue is still 60, but I took her very close to rank 12, so I have some experience with it) I'd venture to guess the exact same thing is true of rogues without Prep. Except you can still do major amounts of disruption without prep. They trink out of Sap... that trinket is no longer available if he gets feared or cycloned or blinded.

Rogues have one of THE power combinations in 2v2, so I'm not sad to see this affect rogues and druids more than anyone else. Both are still incredibly valueable. Even if someone trinkets out of it, other forms of CC are then applicable.

In fact I just looked at all the 2v2 teams rated >2350 that also have more than 200 wins in my in my battlegroup and 6 have rogues in them, 6 don't. Yeah, warrior paladin is up there, but rogues are way up there in terms of 2v2 importance. Rogues don't realistically have all that much to complain about in 2v2 and 3v3 areanas (5v5 is another story). They still have lots of power in arenas.

2v2, and to some extent 3v3 is all about getting in a power combination anyway. sucks to be a hunter, he has no power combinations in 2v2 or 3v3 or 5v5.

I feel it si the right thing for the game as a whole for the trinkets to be changed in this manner.
The only think I see being imbalanced by this is the AoE fear ---> shaman trinket out --> drop tremor totem which insta pulses a fear dispel. I think this was the main reason that shaman never had a fear removal on their trinket. Aside from that it's a very good move to let the classes choose what kind of control removal they wish to remove.

Delc

Jun 7 2007, 07:37 PM

QUOTE(Concillian @ Jun 7 2007, 02:26 PM)

2v2, and to some extent 3v3 is all about getting in a power combination anyway. sucks to be a hunter, he has no power combinations in 2v2 or 3v3 or 5v5.

BM hunters destroy cloth in 2v2.

Personally I find my rogue does pretty well in the 2v2 arena. I'm combat maces, and my partner is a fire mage. Loladin/warrior teams are actually one of the easiest matchups for us. When you aren't relying on heals MS is a lot less important, and AR >> warriors when their pocket healer is being shut down. The hardest fights for us are rogue/BM hunter, and double rogue.

Concillian

Jun 7 2007, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(Delc @ Jun 7 2007, 12:37 PM)

BM hunters destroy cloth in 2v2.

Cloth who don't know how to LOS.

I looked at the top 30 2v2 in my BG before the armory appears to have had some problems... no hunters, not even hunters with a minority of games played. Hunters have advantages in PvP, but they don't translate well to the current arenas (small, lots of areas to LOS) if they are facing GOOD opponents.

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(Concillian @ Jun 7 2007, 03:26 PM)

Based on my PvP experience with rogues at 60 (my rogue is still 60, but I took her very close to rank 12, so I have some experience with it) I'd venture to guess the exact same thing is true of rogues without Prep.

You'd be wrong. Prep is no longer the beast it was before TBC. All it really buys you any more is an extra Vanish. I have been under different specs, believe it or not, and the Mutilate foundation is the most solid for a dagger rogue in PvP. A subtlety dagger rogue cannot generate the combo points necessary to both control and deal damage at the same time. If I was purely PvP specced, there are a few things I would change, but the general basis would stay the same to the various Mutilate builds I've been using since TBC was released. Ironically, the biggest overall change? I'd be more powerful versus other rogues.

QUOTE

Except you can still do major amounts of disruption without prep. They trink out of Sap... that trinket is no longer available if he gets feared or cycloned or blinded.

You're not getting it. I'm already using all these options and can regularly run into issues. But now the best option I have, a once-a-match Blind, is easily removed.

QUOTE

Rogues have one of THE power combinations in 2v2, so I'm not sad to see this affect rogues and druids more than anyone else. Both are still incredibly valueable. Even if someone trinkets out of it, other forms of CC are then applicable.

In fact I just looked at all the 2v2 teams rated >2350 that also have more than 200 wins in my in my battlegroup and 6 have rogues in them, 6 don't. Yeah, warrior paladin is up there, but rogues are way up there in terms of 2v2 importance. Rogues don't realistically have all that much to complain about in 2v2 and 3v3 areanas (5v5 is another story). They still have lots of power in arenas.

I just tried going through that list and found 3 rogues total that weren't dragged up there by others (they actually played a decent amount of games).

Quark

Jun 7 2007, 09:51 PM

So I'm reading a breakdown of the Top 20 teams for each battlegroup/size.

5v5
Warrior: 21%
Paladin: 20%
Priest: 13%
Shaman: 13%
Mage: 12%
Warlock: 8%
Hunter: 6%
Rogue: 5%
Druid: 4%

3v3
Paladin: 17%
Warrior: 15%
Priest: 15%
Warlock: 14%
Rogue: 12%
Mage: 10%
Shaman: 9%
Druid: 5%
Hunter: 2%

2v2
Warlock: 24%
Priest: 20%
Paladin: 15%
Rogue: 12%
Warrior: 10%
Mage: 6%
Druid: 6%
Shaman: 4%

Now, if we're assuming all classes are spread evenly that means 11% would be average. So Rogues in their "power" groups are merely average and drop like a rock as more players become involved.

Jester

Jun 7 2007, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 03:51 PM)

So I'm reading a breakdown of the Top 20 teams for each battlegroup/size.

5v5
Warrior: 21%
Paladin: 20%
Priest: 13%
Shaman: 13%
Mage: 12%
Warlock: 8%
Hunter: 6%
Rogue: 5%
Druid: 4%

3v3
Paladin: 17%
Warrior: 15%
Priest: 15%
Warlock: 14%
Rogue: 12%
Mage: 10%
Shaman: 9%
Druid: 5%
Hunter: 2%

2v2
Warlock: 24%
Priest: 20%
Paladin: 15%
Rogue: 12%
Warrior: 10%
Mage: 6%
Druid: 6%
Shaman: 4%

Now, if we're assuming all classes are spread evenly that means 11% would be average. So Rogues in their "power" groups are merely average and drop like a rock as more players become involved.

So, rogues are, by that count, above druids, hunters, shamans and mages, and below warriors, paladins, locks and priests. Middle of the pack.

It certainly does seem like warriors and paladins are too strong in the larger groups. And those classes, if I understand the balance correctly, are the big headaches for rogues. I think this is more a metagame issue, with rogues being the victims of the popularity of paladins and warriors, and not any fundamental imbalance in the rogue class. If other classes were stronger against those two, and the rogue left unchanged, I think the rogue numbers would go considerably up, since rogues are better against squishies.

-Jester

oldmandennis

Jun 8 2007, 12:01 AM

There's a couple of problems with that statement, Jester. Blizz has decided that 5v5 is supposed to be the premier bracket. Thats why they are hosting a world championship for it, and that's why it's worth so many more points.

The other problem is that it taking balance in the opposite direction of where it needs to go. Paladins see a huge benefit from this, and warriors too, but they are already too strong. Druids are one of the weaker classes in arenas, and this hurts a ton.

MS and pallies need to be taken down several pegs. They are just silly right now. They should rethink the 5v5 > all paradim, which could quite possibly lead to a system where rogues dominate 2v2 but are a liability in 5v5. As long as the point totals are the same, and goodies like the world tournament are the same, I'd be ok with that.

Xame

Jun 8 2007, 12:33 AM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 03:14 PM)

You'd be wrong. Prep is no longer the beast it was before TBC. All it really buys you any more is an extra Vanish.

I don't have a huge amount of arena experiance in 2x2 but with a Rogue and Mage (me) if a fight lasts longer then 10secs when combat starts its a long fight. It took us a bit to work out that bit but its the case. Rogue starts a stun on the victim, mage CC's off target (sheep/slow/counter spell). Then its AP/PoM/Trinket/Pyroblast and standard insta-nukes while the rogue holds the victim in a stun (cheap shot + kidney (need to let the pyro dot continue to work)+ gouge for the cast time of the final nuke). Options/variations are vanish+cheap shot again or blind the victim or CC target. And a lot of time the extra CC isn't needed and the rogue just helps with the dps. Teams that have given us the most trouble have been hunters(BM) and warlocks. With the interupts/CC of the pets its hard to hold good CC while not dieing yourself. +50yard pet charges, choose to CC pet, hunter is on you, CC hunter pet, hunter kills you and pops beast wrath/intimidation at just the right time to mess with you. And don't let me get started with the lack of warlock CC choices. Giving these classes even more ways out of CC is the crime of this change.

I sympathize with you Quark. Rogues have great cc OR great dps. They really don't have both at the same time. Energy is on the metered tic and a rogue has to choose one or the other. I'm sure the trinket change was not intended at rogues since you have plenty of other CC options given the short life of targets. But with a lot of classes getting "one off" CC options, it helps prevent a "first to CC wins".

Brista

Jun 8 2007, 10:51 AM

Why is Rogues being average and Druids being bottom, second bottom and second bottom a Rogue issue? And to cap it all Druids' main defence just got made trinketable.

Warlock

Jun 8 2007, 11:58 AM

To Rogue players it's most definitely a Rogue issue.

Druids are really good in solo and small group PVE, which is more than the class was in 1.x. For levelling and doing quests and instances feral is a very strong spec indeed; I could grind as fast as a rogue with a group-friendly tanking spec. I was the first of my group of friends to 70 by a fair bit and a lot of that is thanks to the power of a feral druid in my favorite content. The lack of specialist equipment is no big deal when everyone else is also in a mishmash of gear and the quested and crafted tanking blues are just amazing. The class does need PVP and to a lesser degree raid help but in the majority of the game Druids are fine. That PVP and raid are the only progression sources right now is a problem but the next expansion will fix it (at which point I'll come back, happily accept my free gear reset and play until I hit raid-or-die again).

Quark

Jun 8 2007, 01:28 PM

QUOTE(Brista @ Jun 8 2007, 06:51 AM)

Why is Rogues being average and Druids being bottom, second bottom and second bottom a Rogue issue? And to cap it all Druids' main defence just got made trinketable.

I'm average, average, and awful right now and this change would make that worse. That's why it's a Rogue issue. I'm not saying it's not a Druid issue: the three classes that are going to be hurt the most are Rogue, Druid, and Hunter. Going down that list, that makes it a horrible change.

I'm defending the Rogue side because I am a Rogue and I know Rogues, not because I think Druids are getting any less hurt.

Quark

Jun 8 2007, 01:34 PM

QUOTE(Xame @ Jun 7 2007, 08:33 PM)

I don't have a huge amount of arena experiance in 2x2 but with a Rogue and Mage (me) if a fight lasts longer then 10secs when combat starts its a long fight.

Trust me, it's a symptom of gear. Arena gear really does help in PvP. If I see a priest in all purple (Tier 4), I know I'm in for a pretty easy kill. If I see a priest in all white (Arena), it's going to be a lot harder.

Burst teams don't last as people gear up. Someone's gonna survive the burst, and then everything falls apart. Hell, in my experience so far burst teams don't even last as you play them multiple times. The strategy is evident, and you just find a way to delay them for a short time then it starts to unravel.

Bolty

Jun 8 2007, 04:15 PM

QUOTE(Tal @ Jun 7 2007, 09:13 AM)

I realize that this has no bearing on your specific issues when it comes to 2 vs 2 arenas but I'm cheering this change. The only thing I can offer in battlegrounds is to heal the dps (usually warriors, rogues and warlocks) long enough for them to take down the opposition and maybe I'm just a n00b but any competent rogue can lock me down for as long as he wants...

The main problem, and what Quark is rightfully complaining about, is that this change hurts classes the most that have powerful, long-cooldown crowd controls. The longer the cooldown and the more powerful the crowd control, the bigger the nerf this represents.

I'm a bit confused as to why Druids would be all that upset about this change. Yes, it means that Cyclone can be breakable by all enemies, but Cyclone is a spammable CC with no cooldown. If someone trinkets out of it, you just cast it again. The PvP trinket can only be used once every 2 minutes (if you have the advanced version, and not having that in PvP is...fatal). Using a trinket to break Cyclone only makes sense under dire circumstances, because chances are you'll just get Cycloned again, and you've lost the use of the trinket for any future, worse CCs for 2 minutes.

Now, Rogues...ugh. The least-repeatable, longest "cooldown" CC in PvP is Sap. Since you can trinket it out of it now, that is a huge nerf to Rogue PvP. Period, that's fact. The typical response of "if I break Sap, I'll just get Blinded anyway" fails to take into account that before this change, you'd be Sapped and THEN Blinded. Now you can break one of the two. It's a flat out nerf, and it's a nasty one.

Priests will feel little impact except when fighting Shamans. Everyone else already breaks Priest fear within a second or two of casting with a trinket or WotF now anyway. Warriors are essentially unfearable. As for Shamans, as a Holy Priest, I can't beat them to begin with unless they're awful. What's the difference? Priests are so used to their only CC being at best a 1-2 second disruption to an enemy that this change could almost be a buff. After all, I can use it to break Sap.

Rogues ARE their cooldowns. This trinket change takes a number of their best, most powerful cooldowns and nerfs them. They have a right to be upset.

The classes that make the least use of long cooldown, powerful CC options will get a significant buff out of this. Those classes? Warriors and Paladins, already considered two of the three most powerful in PvP (Warlocks being the third). Warriors lose Intimidating Shout as a guaranteed CC, that's about it. Everything else is a quickly-spammable CC, like Hamstring.

Example for those who don't PvP/Arena much:

Quark and I play as a Holy Priest/Dagger Rogue combo in 2v2 Arena. It's a solid combo, with its current weakness that I'm not very durable. I have a PvE healing spec with two points in Focused Casting and very little resilience (until next week). On the other hand, "control" fights play into my favor since my regen and healing power is way up there.

We had two matches against a double-Rogue team this week. A double-Rogue team has one obvious playstyle: CC one enemy, burst down the second. Both of these Rogues had Master of Deception and were pretty much invisible until they were on you.

In the first match, they made a critical error. They decided to CC me and burst Quark. Oops. After I was sapped they immediately opened up on Quark. This little ability called Evasion allowed Quark plenty of time to avoid damage while waiting for me to get out of the Sap, after which I instantly hit Psychic Scream and PoM'ed Quark for a quick heal. Psychic Scream was immediately trinketed out by both Rogues and one went to Blind me. I popped Stoneform, and it was all over by that point. Unable to burst one of us down while the other was CC'ed, we won via attrition against an enemy unable to heal themselves.

They learned from this.

Second match, they did the smart move and CC'ed Quark. Quark and I were bunched together with me randomly casting Rank 1 Holy Nova, a typical defense move against stealth teams to try to catch them. It failed. First came the Sap. With Quark controlled, they both immediately started wailing on me. There was no way I'd survive more than 5 seconds with 2 Rogues beating me senseless, so I trinketed out of the Cheap Shot, began running away, hit Stoneform to clear the Crippling Poison, slammed Psychic Scream to gain some separation, and Shielded to avoid a chance of Daze. I broke clear and strafed to the other side of the arena, much to my surprise. Apparently the Rogues had burned their Sprint to get in for the Sap in between my Holy Novas, and since I have the speed enchant on my boots they couldn't close the gap. All I had to do was survive long enough for Quark's CC to end and we win. So far so good.

The moment Sap wore off, Quark popped Sprint and headed for me, only to be met with a Blind. By this time, the other Rogue had caught up to me at the far side of the arena and commenced pwnage. But still, I can survive for a while against one Rogue due to my powerful heals. In seconds, the second Rogue was on me and I was fading fast. I needed Quark to get in there and disrupt them. My Psychic Scream still had 4-5 seconds left on cooldown when Quark ran up to them - and got Blinded again.

I went down in a hailstorm of stuns and stabbing. With the fight now a 2 on 1, the end was decided. At no time did Quark ever get a chance to really do anything.

Am I complaining? No. The fight was balanced. The key was the Sap - Quark got Sapped and they didn't, because they could see him before he could see them. Now, with the new Trinket, one of the three CC's those Rogues used to keep Quark out of the fight long enough to take me down is almost instantly removed, and the balance shifts to our favor. Why? Because Rogues are so dependent on their cooldown crowd control abilities.

Now, you could argue that in our Rogue/Priest team, Sap is still useful because it forces a trinket use early, making my Psychic Scream more applyable without an instant break. I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that fear remains such an easy-to-break crowd control mechanic. Loss of Sap means loss of initiative for our team.

-Bolty

Treesh

Jun 8 2007, 04:51 PM

And for those folks without the dwarf racial that you keep popping or a druid/shaman/pally around? What then Bolty.

Legedi

Jun 8 2007, 04:53 PM

What I got out of Bolty's post is the problem rogues have always had. They require the use of lots of cooldowns to be effective. But the use of that many cooldowns is not fun for the rogue. They have to use them all effectively to do well. Classes that can avoid them (either a dwarf stone forming out of blind, an orc resisting stuns, or a warrior zerking out of sap/gouge) get a big advantage.

It also isn't very fun for people on the receiving end of all the rogue cooldowns. Even though Quark is a rogue himself, I can't imagine it being very "fun" to get sapped -> blinded -> blinded. And everyone that isn't a rogue gets even more upset. To most people it doesn't matter if it's "ballanced", they want it to be fun. That's where crys of nerf come from. And a common one has always been the "feared from 100-0" "stunned from 100-0". So blizzard has always been nerfing these cases.

What blizzard needs to do is counter ballance these changes. IMO priests have been screwed from the constant nerf to fear, which are mainly from warlock chain fears. Rogues are getting nerfed from the trinket change. These nerfs make PvP more fun for other classes. So something should be done to offset these changes. What they should do, or what they might do, I have not idea. But I can easilly see why these changes where made.

Quark

Jun 8 2007, 05:17 PM

QUOTE(Legedi @ Jun 8 2007, 12:53 PM)

What blizzard needs to do is counter ballance these changes. IMO priests have been screwed from the constant nerf to fear, which are mainly from warlock chain fears. Rogues are getting nerfed from the trinket change. These nerfs make PvP more fun for other classes. So something should be done to offset these changes. What they should do, or what they might do, I have not idea. But I can easilly see why these changes where made.

Yes, exactly. I understand the change. By itself, though, it's horrible. It needs more, or else the teams that needed the least help got the most.

Also, about that Rogue/Rogue team, three critical things helped their victory. One, they both had MoD and I didn't. One also had the insane Perception racial. Two, I was too close to Bolty before their opener, making me an easy spot. Three, I Blinded the guy who already had Blinded me, instead of hitting the guy who still had another CC.

I fix my mistakes, we get some actual PvP gear, and that combination becomes easier to deal with.

oldmandennis

Jun 8 2007, 05:37 PM

QUOTE(Bolty @ Jun 8 2007, 09:15 AM)

I'm a bit confused as to why Druids would be all that upset about this change. Yes, it means that Cyclone can be breakable by all enemies, but Cyclone is a spammable CC with no cooldown. If someone trinkets out of it, you just cast it again.

Because cyclone is already subject to brutal DR. I don't know the exact DR mechaninc off the top of my head, but its something like 6->2->1->immune. It's only real upside was it was irremovable. Only the first cast buys you enough time to do anything, the rest of the time you are babysitting it and effectively trading you druid for one of their team members. The way druids are in arenas, that's usually a good trade :/

Monkey

Jun 8 2007, 06:45 PM

QUOTE(Quark @ Jun 7 2007, 05:51 PM)

So I'm reading a breakdown of the Top 20 teams for each battlegroup/size.

Now, if we're assuming all classes are spread evenly that means 11% would be average. So Rogues in their "power" groups are merely average and drop like a rock as more players become involved.

Let's rebalance those numbers based on class population. I just grabbed this distribution information off warcraftrealms.com (and yes, it's only level 70s):

Druid: 10%
Hunter: 13%
Mage: 14%
Paladin: 9%
Priest: 11%
Rogue: 12%
Shaman: 6%
Warlock: 11%
Warrior: 15%

I'm using the formula: QAP/WCP = SR where:
QRP: Quark's Arena Percentage
WCP: Warcraft Realms Percentage
SR: Subscription rate, or the rate at which a particular class is selected for top arena teams.

An SR of 1 means the class is selected with parity to the general distribution of the overall population. Greater than 1 means it's more popular, less than 1 means less popular. These are sorted from most to least popular.

CODE

5v5
Paladin: 2.22
Shaman: 2.17
Warrior: 1.40
Priest: 1.18
Mage: 0.86
Warlock: 0.73
Hunter: 0.46
Rogue: 0.42
Druid: 0.40

3v3
Paladin: 1.89
Shaman: 1.50
Priest: 1.36
Warlock: 1.27
Warrior: 1.00
Rogue: 1.00
Mage: 0.71
Druid: 0.50
Hunter: 0.15

2v2
Warlock: 2.18
Priest: 1.82
Paladin: 1.67
Rogue: 1.00
Warrior: 0.67
Shaman: 0.67
Druid: 0.60
Mage: 0.43

Hmm, maybe I should reroll as a Paladin.

Alliera

Jun 8 2007, 08:03 PM

QUOTE(Bolty @ Jun 8 2007, 06:15 PM)

I'm a bit confused as to why Druids would be all that upset about this change. Yes, it means that Cyclone can be breakable by all enemies, but Cyclone is a spammable CC with no cooldown. If someone trinkets out of it, you just cast it again.

Maybe if they removed the diminishing returns. With this change, whenever your trinket's up, Cyclone can take someone out for maybe five seconds tops before they become immune--without time to actually do anything other than keep spamming it.

Watto44

Jun 9 2007, 03:11 AM

Two cents incoming.

I'm very non-plussed about the trinket changes. The vanillarizing of PvP continues. I can see exactly where Quark is coming from here and I can also see why druids are complaining about it. While it will be difficult to tell until the changes go live, sap and cyclone have basically become ways to draw the use of a trinket rather than CC. (Given that cyclone is not dispellable and gets hit hard by diminishing returns, I can see why someone would trinket out of it rather than, say, fear or blind, both of which break on damage and can be removed by other means.) While the ability to draw the trinket will probably turn out to be quite powerful, I still don't like the change. (Another reason that druids are a little cranky about this change: judgment of justice is not affected by the trinket.)

Rogues and druids aside, the change is also a major buff to burst teams, who are already very successful, and a nerf to control teams.

A minor aside: (MS) warriors and (holy) paladins have always been, and probably always will be, gods of moderate to large scale PvP. On the warrior front: large health pools and good physical DR, good burst damage and an array of excellent debuffs. On the paladin side: good physical DR and short cast time, highly efficient, healing spells in addition to good to excellent buffs and the ability to live through twelve seconds of assist-trainage. In my opinion, there really is no comparison to these two classes for group PvP.

Brista

Jun 9 2007, 03:30 AM

QUOTE(Bolty @ Jun 8 2007, 05:15 PM)

I'm a bit confused as to why Druids would be all that upset about this change.

If you were referring to my post Bolty I'm not upset about the change per se, but the perception that

Top = overpowered
Average = broken
Bottom = working as intended

Rather than

Top = overpowered
Average = working as intended
Bottom = broken

I just wondered if there is some feeling that Rogues deserve to be top since they're a pvp/killer class. (Which is something I have found quite a few players think). Imo WoW would work best if all classes were so balanced that you choose for taste and style (like Starcraft) not because the class you pick gives you many many more wins. So on that thought it's the classes at the bottom that need work, possibly some nerf to the classes right at the top but whoever is average is absolutely fine

I'm not sold on the idea that this trinket change breaks Rogues. In your example of the two Rogue team they actually do quite well since one trinket proc will remove one effect from 2 saps, 2 cheap shots, 2 blinds, 2 gouges, 2 kidney shots. So they're going to get something on if they play it right. And they have Clos (which they didn't use when you were spamming your Holy Novas nor did they anticipate your fear with it). If the argument that Rogues have so many different incapacitating effects that they can ride this change holds any truth then surely it holds more truth for a 2 rogue team

oldmandennis

Jun 9 2007, 05:12 AM

I think druids are just less vocal about it, for what ever reason. Personally, I'd already more or less accepted that arenas are not for druids. Rather then agitate for a change to that, I spend most of the energy I have for the subject arguing in favor of BG's that work.

Monkey

Jun 9 2007, 12:46 PM

In addition to confirming the removal of freezing trap, trinkets will now also remove Deathcoil:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...geNo=2&sid=1#27

QUOTE

The trinkets will be updated an upcomming PTR build to remove Deathcoil, Freezing trap, and several other effects that were missed in the first pass.

Mirajj

Jun 9 2007, 01:08 PM

QUOTE(Monkey @ Jun 9 2007, 08:46 AM)

In addition to confirming the removal of freezing trap, trinkets will now also remove Deathcoil:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...geNo=2&sid=1#27

Yay, nerf those pesky hunters right out of the other two Arena pvp games!

(No, I don't pvp, yes, this is tounge in cheek)

Mavfin

Jun 9 2007, 03:08 PM

QUOTE(Mirajj @ Jun 9 2007, 08:08 AM)

Yay, nerf those pesky hunters right out of the other two Arena pvp games!

(No, I don't pvp, yes, this is tongue in cheek)

Well, this is less about PvP 'balance' than more about 'fun' for people playing. As Legedi said, CC-->death is no fun at all, and turns many off of PvP completely. And that's exactly what happens to the inexperienced now. You start a match or a fight, and lose complete control of your character till dead. What's the fun in that? Blizzard would like to see more people PvP, so they're going to remove more of the 'unfun' parts so that more use the content.

I'm not saying this change or others are 'right' or 'balanced', but I think the above has more to do with it than other factors. I don't PvP myself, as I've never put in the time to become good at it. The only 'PvP' I was good at pre-BC was tanking the NPCs in AV so the good PvPers could kill those players who got in the way, and I could get some honor. This is just how I see this change from the outside looking in.

<ramble>
WoW is still a core PvE game, and if you start rewriting classes for PvP, then you start to lose the PvE balance, which is, of course, always a work in progress, as we've seen in the last few months. Some classes have been buffed a bunch, and Blizzard said 'whoops', and nerfed them back, then boosted them a little till they had them where they wanted (for now). Other classes have seen smaller nerfs and stayed that way, other classes have gotten small buffs. As I said, it's always a work in progress. Also, different people have different opinions on what 'balance' means. YMMV.
</ramble>

Cybit

Jun 9 2007, 04:01 PM

The ironic part is, the reason rogues are "good" within arena is that all our cooldowns come back every fight, and a rogue with cooldowns is nasty, and a rogue without cooldowns is in deeeeep doo doo. So seeing rogues as they stand in probably the best case scenario for them PvP wise (all cooldowns come back every fight), it honestly scares me.

Gnollguy

Jun 9 2007, 04:52 PM

QUOTE(Mirajj @ Jun 9 2007, 08:08 AM)

Yay, nerf those pesky hunters right out of the other two Arena pvp games!

(No, I don't pvp, yes, this is tounge in cheek)

Yeah arenas are not friendly to hunters. We still do very well in battlegrounds, but we have issues in the arenas and it will either take a redesign of the arenas or the class. The size of the arenas and the ease of causing LoS issues or deadzone issues make it tough on hunters to do any kind of damage. All hunter specs are pretty limited on CC options. Oh and for those that don't get it. If someone jumps out of LoS of a mage, the mage just has to get LoS back and can then use the full arsenal. If someone gets out of LoS of the hunter they not only need to get LoS back but then need to make sure they aren't too close. I end up doing more melee than I would like and I've already switched, in most cases from trying to use the mostly useless freezing trap (since it can be dispelled by priests and paladins already so if there is one around that cooldown buys you all of about 2 seconds of CC on someone) to, believe it or not, the snake trap. Since snakes can now entrap and the snakes like to put up crippling as well they are generally the best way for me to get distance again in an arena. But it often means that even when I do damage I'm not doing nearly close to my effective damage.

I do play arenas, once a week on a 3v3 team that we all know isn't a good composition class wise and we aren't PvP players either and are all PvE specs we don't expect to ever really do anything other than hover around 1500 rating, which is alright with us. But even at those levels vs some pretty poor PvP players frustrating the hunter isn't that hard to do. One of the best things that can happen to us is to get the newest arena layout because it's so much harder for folks to play LoS and deadzone games with me. In situations like that I can really do some damage. But any good team when they see the make up of our team is generally best served by killing me off then getting the other folks.

Battlegrounds though are different critters, it's much easier to get and keep range and do some serious damage or interrupt the other side via various traps and distractions for the pet. Hunters are decent flag carriers in Eye of the Storm as well because of how control of the map tends to end up, aspect of the daze can actually be used, this is much harder to pull of in WSG but hunters still have value for that there.

So I know you were tongue in cheek but I wouldn't be surprised to see the hunter ratios go down even more with this change in arenas. If there was no priest or paladin on the team the freezing trap was good CC and did give the hunter team help. Now it just means that even on those teams you end up using snakes or frost to just try and get the slowing or entrapment triggers but that also means you might lose more to them since you can't take some of that DPS you are facing out of the fight (if the team has a druid healer you generally just killed them first because druid healers are the easiest healers to kill by far in arenas at least at the lower skill levels since they have long heals or purgable heals or can't heal at all if they change forms). It does help hunters a bit since we can get out of sheeps now but I still think it hurts us because the few times when we were better to bring than another class in the first place, times when you need CC and everyone could trinket out of sheep, are now gone and the mage is going to be better than the hunter with the blinks, novas, sheeps same or better DPS from range, better burst DPS via trinkets, counterspell on a caster is as good or better than a pet that is there to just stutter casts, etc. Sure a hunter can get out of more annoying situations now because they can actually break sheep and fear now but it just means the mages repeatable CC and the warlocks repeatable CC got more valuable compared to the now breakable hard to repeat hunter CC and the hunter didn't have much in the way of advantages.

But I was already under the impression that hunters were only on top teams anyway because that is what they played and their friends kept them around on the team because a well played hunter can at least break even and bring a few tricks to a team with good focus fire (well timed stun from a beast master scatter shots and silencing shots from marks, but marks bring better tricks to the table than beast for arenas anyway) so that they aren't a total liability in the arena. So their friends let them still play the hunter. I've never figured a hunter was on an arena team because the team thought a hunter was a better choice than another class, only because there wasn't another choice.

Mirajj

Jun 9 2007, 07:43 PM

I mentioned that I don't PvP, and that's one of the big reasons. I make no claim to any PvP skill whatsoever, I'm mainly a PvE player, and I like to think a pretty decent one. But I've done some PvP'ing in my time, and there is little more frusterating than to go from full to dead with almost nothing I can do about it. Now I realize that part of this is my spec, and part of it my lack of skill...but even accounting that, like has been said, PvP is no fun if you can't do something once in a while.

I played through to AV exalted because I wanted a couple things from there, and felt useful. From the few Arena's I've done (all skirmish matches) I always felt useless. So I don't arena anymore.

Gnollguy

Jun 9 2007, 07:55 PM

QUOTE(Mirajj @ Jun 9 2007, 02:43 PM)

I played through to AV exalted because I wanted a couple things from there, and felt useful. From the few Arena's I've done (all skirmish matches) I always felt useless. So I don't arena anymore.

Yep I don't blame you at all on that either. I only play because I'm in there with people that don't care that much about being ranked high. We want to get better we, want to win more than we lose, but we know that we can't be, and in some matches I can be helpful. But I know that if we were doing a competitive arena team that my hunter, even if I did a more PvP friendly spec, would be mostly dead weight on an arena team.

oldmandennis

Jun 9 2007, 10:22 PM

QUOTE

I wouldn't be surprised to see the hunter ratios go down even more with this change in arenas. If there was no priest or paladin on the team the freezing trap was good CC and did give the hunter team help.

I don't think it's as dire as that. The people muddling along for their 400 points/week can pretty much continue to do that. I don't think a slight but noticable change in utility is going to change much for those folks.

Anything higher then that and you can pretty much count on seeing a priest or pally anyhow. I'd imagine that people at that level would rarely trinket out of a trap, prefering to save it for something they can't get dispelled out of - like a warrior fear or a scattershot.

Gnollguy

Jun 9 2007, 11:54 PM

QUOTE(oldmandennis @ Jun 9 2007, 05:22 PM)

I don't think it's as dire as that. The people muddling along for their 400 points/week can pretty much continue to do that. I don't think a slight but noticable change in utility is going to change much for those folks.

Anything higher then that and you can pretty much count on seeing a priest or pally anyhow. I'd imagine that people at that level would rarely trinket out of a trap, prefering to save it for something they can't get dispelled out of - like a warrior fear or a scattershot.

You can trinket out of scatter shot as well now. It's not just the traps that were already mostly useless that it hurts on the hunters and marks specs were generally the better Arena specs because of the silence and scatter utility. And there are less hunters (if you look at all 3 brackets) than any other class at least on the top teams based off the link earlier in this thread. Yes there are more druids across all the brackets than hunters.

CODE

Class       5v5     3v3     2v2      Total
Hunter      70      12      8        90
Druid       41      29      23       93
Shaman      143     54      17       214
Rogue       52      76      46       174

And yeah the trinket change might not change much for them. But even on the top teams, as I mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure most of the hunters are just there because their friends are being nice to them. People do actually want druids and shaman and rogues on the teams even with the weaknesses they have.

The trinket change I think is something that overall hurts hunters, but again it's not a huge deal. Hunters are not a good class in the arenas because of class design and the actual layout design of the arenas themselves. I just took some of the discussion in this thread and ran with it. I still have fun in the arenas because I'm just muddling for my 350-400 points a week (I'm on a 3v3 team) but I'm not one of the stats listed there. I'm not in a top 20 team on my server so I play with my friends, get my points, have fun even with some of the frustrations of the class in PvP. The only class I'll even accept arguments about Arena issues being worse for is the druid and I still think they are better in arenas but at least I think they have a leg to stand on as far as griping goes. I haven't checked but I bet that of the hunters in those numbers that a lot of them are only playing 30-40% of the games, that even on the top teams they are getting drug in the ratings up.

NotSoDarklord

Jun 11 2007, 10:12 PM

QUOTE(Gnollguy @ Jun 9 2007, 11:54 PM)

Hunters are not a good class in the arenas because of class design and the actual layout design of the arenas themselves. The only class I'll even accept arguments about Arena issues being worse for is the druid and I still think they are better in arenas but at least I think they have a leg to stand on as far as griping goes. I haven't checked but I bet that of the hunters in those numbers that a lot of them are only playing 30-40% of the games, that even on the top teams they are getting drug in the ratings up.

I beg to differ GG. An effective hunter is a nightmare in the arenas (More noteably in the larger brackets) due to their survivability, utility, and damage a hunter brings to the table. I think that hunters are definitely underrepresented at the moment but looking at the ultra high-end pvp more teams played a hunter than a rogue in the various rounds of the arena tournament so far. While they are subject to all sort of kiting and los tactics by individual members they provide a source of dps that is not easily controlled in any way. I can't count the number of 5v5 matches my (admittedly terrible 1800ish rating) team has lost due to trying to focus a monster in 200-300 resilience sporting at least 12k health with a get out of trouble free BW button to totally ruin our efforts and to top it all off snares for our melee to keep them off of him.