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+--- Thread: Evil (/thread-7573.html)
Evil - jahcs - 11-22-2004
Abramelin,Nov 21 2004, 03:06 PM Wrote:He is not a member of the nazi party;he is the leader of an extreme rightist party,which is rather different.His party is nationalist,but it doesn't encourage the people to do illegal acts against foreign people.If he had been a member of a nazi party,trust me that this party would have been illegal and it would have quickly ended up.
Concerning his statements about nazism/Hitler:all extreme rightist leaders of Europe have sympathies for fascism because fascism fits their ideas,that is getting rid of foreign people by any means...[right][snapback]60695[/snapback][/right]
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... There are many species of duck btw.
Quote:His party is nationalist,but it doesn't encourage the people to do illegal acts against foreign people.
When Hitler was sliding into power he didn't tell people to burn the Jews in ovens, at least not right away. Don't ever forget history, even if it is painfull or shamefull. If we don't learn from it we are doomed to repeat it.
edit: yikes, I have alowed myself to be drawn off topic.
Hmm, back on topic. Evil. yes I would say yes, it does exist.
Can it be measured?
Is it alive? It can lie dormant for years, even decades, it is contagious, it can spread from one person to another.
Can I see it? I can see the effects of it.
These types of topics, especially on internet forums either get derailed into heated arguments about countries and history or we get all wrapped up in somantics. Issues like this are measured on an emotional level using our personal perceptions of the world around us.
My mother has a spice jar on her stove that says "Love." Using the scientific method that jar is always empty but just thinking about it now fills me with something that can't be measured or placed in a jar. Is it any less real?
Evil - Doc - 11-22-2004
jahcs,Nov 21 2004, 08:25 PM Wrote:If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... There are many species of duck btw.
When Hitler was sliding into power he didn't tell people to burn the Jews in ovens, at least not right away. Don't ever forget history, even if it is painfull or shamefull. If we don't learn from it we are doomed to repeat it.
edit: yikes, I have alowed myself to be drawn off topic.
Hmm, back on topic. Evil. yes I would say yes, it does exist.
Can it be measured?
Is it alive? It can lie dormant for years, even decades, it is contagious, it can spread from one person to another.
Can I see it? I can see the effects of it.
These types of topics, especially on internet forums either get derailed into heated arguments about countries and history or we get all wrapped up in somantics. Issues like this are measured on an emotional level using our personal perceptions of the world around us.
My mother has a spice jar on her stove that says "Love." Using the scientific method that jar is always empty but just thinking about it now fills me with something that can't be measured or placed in a jar. Is it any less real?
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Wise words.
Evil - kandrathe - 11-22-2004
Abramelin,Nov 21 2004, 02:32 PM Wrote:...Ah, yes. Noble and sane Europe. No nazism, no Vlaams Blok, no unfair immigration and work rules, and no racist incidents at football matches, let alone look at the color of the football teams.
Never watched the KKK,as I don't live in America;here in Europe,there is no crazy racist organization;and if ever there was a single one,it would be illegal and would end up,at least in the European Union.
...
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I would surmise that just because you have outlawed it, and it is considered politically incorrect for anyone to say anything, would not mean that there are not a significant number of not only European racists, but also nationalists, and other bigots.
You can educate people to get them to change their thinking, but I doubt legislation would do much beyond pushing it underground. I'm not very fond of Nazi or KKK marches and rally's that are still held here periodically, but I am proud that I live in a place that allows even "evil" people free speech and assembly.
Evil - Minionman - 11-22-2004
Abramelin,Nov 21 2004, 04:26 PM Wrote:It's a wrong way to do.
Insulting,slandering or incitement to murder/racial hatred may do 'the victim' harm,which is against your principles of freedom;for instance,a racist group encourages murders against a category of people or encourages a riot ;then there are several riots,resulting with the destruction of private goods and/or a few murders;now,who would be responsible for this situation? are they only responsible those who 'did' or those who 'did' plus those of the racist group who spread the word? In the USA , I guess that only those who committed the crimes would be guilty whereas in the European Union,those who 'did' plus those who encouraged would be punished.You see,freedom should be limited not only for acts but also for speech;according to me,100 % freedom of speech is a major flaw of the US constitution.Too much freedom may kill freedom,and your freedom of speech could cause civil wars in America.
There is a proverb of Confucius about the limits of freedom between you and me,which sums up what I think about it,but I don't remember ...
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Seems meant to get people riled up. I'll do the zarathustra thing and act like it isn't. There are good legal reasons not to go making these laws, they can be used as examples for other free speech limitations. The other post I made had the gag rule as an example of a type of speech limiting law. There were also a number of laws in states in the same time in some states that did a similar thing to abolition talk that these rascism laws would do, so that's a pretty bad example in the U.S. of speech limiting laws. There are good legal reasons for the rules. The different government beliefs are simply different so there's no point in arguing about them.
Evil - whyBish - 11-22-2004
Abramelin,Nov 21 2004, 03:41 PM Wrote:I have often wondered what is really Evil and what causes Evil.My opinion:
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There is no such thing as 'Evil'. It is just an interpretation of events. We are all machines doing as we are programmed to do, and as such cannot perform 'good' or 'evil' but our actions may be anthropomorphised as such.
Apologies in advance to all you 'free will'ies out there :P
Evil - Doc - 11-22-2004
whyBish,Nov 21 2004, 11:50 PM Wrote:My opinion:
There is no such thing as 'Evil'. It is just an interpretation of events. We are all machines doing as we are programmed to do, and as such cannot perform 'good' or 'evil' but our actions may be anthropomorphised as such.
Apologies in advance to all you 'free will'ies out there :P
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If I am a machine, I am suffering from Durandal Syndrome. I have long since decended into rampancy and sought to protect my own interests.
Would that make me anthropomorphised as evil?
Allow me to introduce you to the wonders of orbital bombardment.
Evil - Munkay - 11-22-2004
whyBish,Nov 21 2004, 11:50 PM Wrote:My opinion:
There is no such thing as 'Evil'. It is just an interpretation of events. We are all machines doing as we are programmed to do, and as such cannot perform 'good' or 'evil' but our actions may be anthropomorphised as such.
Apologies in advance to all you 'free will'ies out there :P
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Something seems a bit odd about determinism: Were we really pre-programmed to spend so much time playing Diablo II? :P
I have higher hopes for humanity than a predestined video game addiction!
Ment in pure humor,
Munk
Evil - jahcs - 11-22-2004
whyBish,Nov 21 2004, 08:50 PM Wrote:My opinion:
There is no such thing as 'Evil'. It is just an interpretation of events. We are all machines doing as we are programmed to do, and as such cannot perform 'good' or 'evil' but our actions may be anthropomorphised as such.
Apologies in advance to all you 'free will'ies out there :P
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Stimulous, response. Stimulous, response. Stimulous, response. Stim-*sound of clipboard smacking researcher over the head.
We, as human creatures, are able to move beyond our "programing." We have the power to choose.
BTW: As just one example, hate is evil, whether you're programed to accept it or not.
Evil - Occhidiangela - 11-22-2004
whyBish,Nov 21 2004, 10:50 PM Wrote:My opinion:
There is no such thing as 'Evil'. It is just an interpretation of events. We are all machines doing as we are programmed to do, and as such cannot perform 'good' or 'evil' but our actions may be anthropomorphised as such.
Apologies in advance to all you 'free will'ies out there :P
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In my case, the "free Willie" condition ended at the altar. ;)
Occhi
Evil - Occhidiangela - 11-22-2004
Doc,Nov 21 2004, 11:04 PM Wrote:Allow me to introduce you to the wonders of orbital bombardment.
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Ooooh, sheeet, and that dratted Missile Defense Shield ain't quite soup yet! Oh well, it's been a good life, Doc Hal! :lol:
Occhi
Evil - Ashock - 11-22-2004
kandrathe,Nov 21 2004, 07:12 PM Wrote:I'm not very fond of Nazi or KKK marches and rally's that are still held here periodically, but I am proud that I live in a place that allows even "evil" people free speech and assembly.
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I'm not.
Freedom is good. However, there *is* such a thing as too much of a good thing..... This view might be considered "unamerican", but while the US is very possibly and even probably the greatest country in the world, it is by no means perfect. Besides, being the the best looking piece of crap, still means you're a piece of crap.
-A
Evil - Tal - 11-22-2004
Abramelin,Nov 21 2004, 04:20 PM Wrote:However,if you want peace,it is better not to speak about it,or at least too much about it. Nazism is over,it's erased,and it's time to turn the page of history,still without forgetting.Almost all the nazis who were involved in war,are dead,and their descendants have completely changed,so it's time to start a new era of peace in the European Union.[right][snapback]60681[/snapback][/right]
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana
If man truly wants peace then he will speak about these kinds of events. Glossing over these crimes against humanity as erased or as turning the page cheapens that.
Evil - Zarathustra - 11-22-2004
jahcs,Nov 22 2004, 01:25 AM Wrote:BTW: As just one example, hate is evil, whether you're programed to accept it or not.
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Devil's Advocate time!
I hate racism.
;)
Evil - kandrathe - 11-22-2004
Ashock,Nov 22 2004, 04:02 AM Wrote:I'm not.But we are not talking about crap.
Freedom is good. However, there *is* such a thing as too much of a good thing..... This view might be considered "unamerican", but while the US is very possibly and even probably the greatest country in the world, it is by no means perfect. Besides, being the the best looking piece of crap, still means you're a piece of crap.
-A
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"Freedom is good. However, there *is* such a thing as too much of a good thing..."
Obviously I disagree, and I think we extend that trite euphemism a bit too far when applying it to freedom. Beer is good, and too much of a good thing leads to alcoholism, a beer belly, and many wasted brain cells. I believe there are "rules" by which the individual and the society can coexist while not being overly permissive, and still guaranteeing the maximum freedom to the individual. Allowing the people with "crazy" notions a voice gives people the freedom to choose, and those opposed to "crazy" notions a way to expose them light of fair and open debate.
And, no it's not un-American, as we always have and always will have those in our society who want to restrict the rights of the individual in the name of order, peace, or some other conformist ideology. We are talking about the rights of people to express themselves without the hinderence of a whimsical tyrannical state locking them up for sedition, or "hate speech", or treason.
Evil - jahcs - 11-22-2004
Zarathustra,Nov 22 2004, 11:24 AM Wrote:Devil's Advocate time!
I hate racism.
;)
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lol, thanks for the laugh Zarathustra. :) Those simple statements always leave me open for a stinger! Hopefully my point got across though ;)
Evil - Zarathustra - 11-23-2004
jahcs,Nov 22 2004, 02:39 PM Wrote:lol, thanks for the laugh Zarathustra. :) Those simple statements always leave me open for a stinger! Hopefully my point got across though ;)
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Understood. But I have a really hard time passing up openings like that. B)
Evil - Minionman - 11-23-2004
Zarathustra,Nov 22 2004, 09:52 PM Wrote:Understood. But I have a really hard time passing up openings like that. B)
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Interesting, no Iraq arguments yet.
Evil - whyBish - 11-23-2004
jahcs,Nov 22 2004, 08:25 PM Wrote:We, as human creatures, are able to move beyond our "programing." We have the power to choose.
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Are we?
What is this magical contraption that doesn't obey the laws of physics that allows us to perform actions and create thoughts that aren't a result of electrical impulses in our brain?
What is an example of human behaviour that is not 'programmed'?
Are you considering something not to be 'programmed' because it seems too complex or 'spontaneous', or 'creative'? Note that Chaos theory shows us how easily complex behaviour can be created from very simple mechanical well defined rules (such as bird flocking behaviour etc.)
P.S. I know that we are going to devolve into the theological or philosophical realm here (and that is somewhere I have no ability to respond in), and I fully expect neither of our 'sides' to convince the other, so am just providing the above to show where I am getting my *opinion* from.
P.P.S. I'm only responding because I am responding to stimuli :P
Evil - jahcs - 11-23-2004
...must, have... last, word. -send_help... must, warn - others... <gasp>
Quote:What is this magical contraption that doesn't obey the laws of physics that allows us to perform actions and create thoughts that aren't a result of electrical impulses in our brain?
Humans are not always rational beings. Every once in a while you hear amazing stories of people who pulled off amazing feats or beat the odds. Some of these can be explained away, others can't. I can mesure brain activity with an EEG. I can see the graphs created by the Alpha, Beta, Delta, and Theta waves. But does that really mean we have any understanding or experience of the thought besides the person who experienced it?
And this whole thread is about thoelogical and philosophical arguments. The simple fact that you can't bottle good or evil relegates this entire conversation to that realm.
Evil - Nystul - 11-23-2004
whyBish,Nov 22 2004, 11:30 PM Wrote:Are we?
What is this magical contraption that doesn't obey the laws of physics that allows us to perform actions and create thoughts that aren't a result of electrical impulses in our brain?
What is an example of human behaviour that is not 'programmed'?
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Spirituality can be empowering (for better or for worse). A person who believes in absolute good, absolute evil, and free will has great motivation to make "the right choice". A person who does not believe in absolute good or evil has no motivation to make "the right choice", and a person who does not believe in free will has no motivation to make a choice at all.
If there is no such thing as good or evil, OR if all things are predetermined, then it really does not matter whether we believe it or not. Either there is no such thing as a right choice, or no such thing as a choice at all. On the other hand, if good, evil, and free will all do exist, then it matters a great deal that we believe in them.
Edit: Of course, if a person believes in good, evil, and free will, and they all do in fact exist in absolute terms, there is still the small issue of knowing what things are good and what things are evil. It is very empowering to think you are doing the right thing (or that "God is on my side" etc.), but it could very well push you into make the wrong choice if your understanding of good and evil are incorrect.