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Ever wonder where some stats come from? - Tris - 11-27-2011 07:10 PM

Just saw a Fox News article talking about auto insurance rates, and listing North Dakota as in like the top 11 for auto insurance costs, with an "average" insurance bill on a 2011 vehicle of over $1,700/year. Really...

Granted, I drive an '09 Camry I-4, but I pay less than $800 per year, including renters coverage for the various electronics, etc. in my apartment. Maybe it's also because I've never hit anything, been hit, but never had care required, or other indices of not being careful.

I really wonder: 1) who the hell they're surveying, and 2) what the hell they're driving.

Apparently ND also ranks as having the worst drivers in the US (http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/09/22/the-worst-drivers-in-america.html?WT.qs_osrc=fxb-36000610), something I definitely don't agree with. I lived in Ohio for 3 years, sorry OhioansTongue We have a stupid number of drunks per capita, but don't agree that we're the worst drivers in the US.

Of course, the same "source" cited by Fox also at one point listed ND as having the ugliest residents in the US.

Now... what I think should happen is that every Texan, Louisianna, Oklahoman, Alabaman, and other Southerner who is hired up here, and who hasn't seen snow, should be required to take a winter driving safety course. Explain to them why they can't drive a 3/4 - 1 ton truck at 90 M.P.H. on ice Tongue

For those guys... Life's a Ditch, and then you die Tongue

Though this winter has been rather... tame.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - DeeBye - 11-28-2011 05:15 AM

My wife and I pay about $150/month for 2 vehicles with full collision/theft/liability coverage. This is really cheap in Canada.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - Zarathustra - 11-29-2011 02:13 PM

About $1100 per year in eastern PA for my car (brand new in 2011) and renter's insurance. I'd be interested to see the source they used so I could compare to other Pennsylvanians.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - Kevin - 11-29-2011 02:38 PM

Insurance figures crack me up.

DeeBye has the only post with useful information, but even then it's not complete to really be helpful to compare to anything.

You have to know deductible, coverage levels, types of coverage.

$1700 a year for a $100 deductible (across the board since you can tweak that per coverage type) comprehensive, collision, liability, medical, under insured motorists, roadside assistance, etc all at max levels is actually a good rate.

$1700 a year with a $500 deductible only liability and medical is an awful rate.

I can go anywhere from about $450 a year to $2100 a year on my 2002 Taurus depending on how I tweak all the variables and meet my legal obligations. I might actually be able to get lower, but I carry more than the minimum because 90% of my miles are done when I end up making 400+ mile one way trips (which end up being 800 to 2000 mile round trips) and if something happens during one of those I want to be covered fully and get it done quickly. Of course since I can tweak my coverage "on the fly" if you will with all the online stuff I do end up dropping coverage levels when I know the car is going to spend most of it's time sitting in my garage because I'm riding the bike or walking to work most every day and it will only move like 4 times that month and then only in town.


On a different subject I've got another stat for everyone. 100% of people who eat food will die.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - kandrathe - 11-29-2011 09:42 PM

(11-27-2011 07:10 PM)Tris Wrote:  Just saw a Fox News article ...
Often, statistics come from a place about a foot in front and below the keyboard. Smile

You should see some of the discussion I get into when attempting to count something mundane, such as "full time equivalent" (FTE). Finance wants it based on the money (e.g. tuition, or salary). The non-finance people want it based on headcount, or hours (of instruction, or worked). Then, you have various formula's cooked up by federal and state agencies. In the end, everyone is confused by all the different numbers.

It get's worse when you try to calculate statistics across state or national lines. You are often not comparing apples to apples, as each collector includes or excludes different populations, and what is an apple in one state might be considered a pear in another state.

What they don't include in the statistics are things like accidents / road miles driven. Do they award the accident to the drivers state of origin, or to the location of the accident? Or, do they measure the percent of accidents due to inclement weather? Here, a slight snowstorm may result in very few accidents, while the same storm in Arkansas may result in many, many more. The drivers there aren't familiar with the conditions, and the states road crews aren't equipped to sand, or salt the roads.

Here is an Allstate report . Comparing cities as opposed to states, makes more sense to me.

AllState Study

It appears that Washington DC has the worst drivers.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - DeeBye - 11-30-2011 03:05 AM

(11-29-2011 02:38 PM)Gnollguy Wrote:  DeeBye has the only post with useful information, but even then it's not complete to really be helpful to compare to anything.

Sorry, I'll expand. $150/month ($1800/year) for 2 cars, full coverage, zero deductible, first accident forgiveness. Liability/medical/under-insured motorists don't apply because liability coverage is mandatory, medical is covered by my red commie government, and everyone that owns a car is legally obligated to carry insurance. Roadside assistance is for pansies, but my wife has it through CAA.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - ShadowHM - 12-01-2011 01:21 AM

I pay $282/month auto insurance on one vehicle for two drivers - myself and my 17 year old son. I have one speeding ticket on my record, he has none. I have no accidents on my record and neither does he. He took an accredited driver training course which reduces the cost to insure him.

This rose by $50/month when I substituted coverage of the 23 year old son with that of the 17 year old. (Yes, new drivers do pay a healthy penalty. And I am shuddering already in anticipation of the effect of adding another one when the next kid gets his license in 2012.)

I drive a 2009 vehicle in a metropolitan area. My deductible is $500 and I have first accident forgiveness. As with DeeBye, liability coverage is mandatory. However, I do have extra coverage for medical, rehabilitation and attendant care expenditures for non-catastrophic injuries. I also pay separately for CAA because I am both a pansy and a worrywart mother. Tongue


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - DeeBye - 12-01-2011 05:48 AM

(12-01-2011 01:21 AM)ShadowHM Wrote:  I have one speeding ticket on my record

This is sort of off-topic, but this reminds me of something. I have no speeding tickets, but when I was 19 years old I got pulled over for doing 90 km/h in a 40km/h zone. I should have had my driver's license revoked right then and there. Going 50 km/h over the speed limit should have been enough to grant me a visit with a judge.

Fortunately I was delivering pizza. I was driving the little crappy hatchback owned by the pizza place (Nissan Micra), and the officer recognized the car and let me off with a warning. He never even asked for my driver's license. He just said "Keep it slower at the bottom of this hill" and let me go.

Fun Fact: pizza places give free pizza to police stations to bribe cops


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - kandrathe - 12-01-2011 04:36 PM

(12-01-2011 05:48 AM)DeeBye Wrote:  
(12-01-2011 01:21 AM)ShadowHM Wrote:  I have one speeding ticket on my record

This is sort of off-topic, but this reminds me of something. I have no speeding tickets, but when I was 19 years old I got pulled over for doing 90 km/h in a 40km/h zone. I should have had my driver's license revoked right then and there. Going 50 km/h over the speed limit should have been enough to grant me a visit with a judge.

Fortunately I was delivering pizza. I was driving the little crappy hatchback owned by the pizza place (Nissan Micra), and the officer recognized the car and let me off with a warning. He never even asked for my driver's license. He just said "Keep it slower at the bottom of this hill" and let me go.

Fun Fact: pizza places give free pizza to police stations to bribe cops
Me too. When I was 18, I overslept and was about an hour late for work. Being dumb and young I thought by driving faster than light I might reverse time and get there on time. I was doing well over 120 mph (speedometer pegged there) in a 65 mph zone when I passed the police car. He caught up to me while I was at a red light 15 minutes later. He said, "Well, my radar went off the scale, so I'll just write this one for 80 mph, ok?" I said, "Yes, sir."

Then, I was an hour and 20 minutes late for work. But, luckily, not in jail, or dead.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - cheezz - 12-02-2011 09:00 AM

He caught up to me while I was at a red light 15 minutes later. He said, "Well, my radar went off the scale, so I'll just write this one for 80 mph, ok?" I said, "Yes, sir."

He lied. He didn't time you. I believe they proved on mythbusters that you needed to go in excess of 200 mph before you could tilt the radar. Each state has their legally accepted forms of proof of speeding listed somewhere. If a cop has legally acceptable proof, they will generally nail you with it. Here in Pennsylvania, if a cop knows you were speeding but can't prove it, they will usually write you a ticket for 'failure to follow a traffic control device' (speed limit sign) They will tell you how it adds no points to your record and the vast majority of people mail in the fine, never realizing that they just got scammed.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - eppie - 12-02-2011 10:36 AM

(12-02-2011 09:00 AM)cheezz Wrote:  , never realizing that they just got scammed.

Of course except for the fact that they really were speeding.....


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - kandrathe - 12-02-2011 02:12 PM

(12-02-2011 10:36 AM)eppie Wrote:  Of course except for the fact that they really were speeding.....
Yeah, I was GUILTY. It was expensive for me at the time, but it could have been much, much worse. I think I flew by him so fast he choked on his donut, spilled his coffee in his lap, and didn't have time to use the radar.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - cheezz - 12-03-2011 06:34 AM

(12-02-2011 10:36 AM)eppie Wrote:  
(12-02-2011 09:00 AM)cheezz Wrote:  , never realizing that they just got scammed.

Of course except for the fact that they really were speeding.....

Now why would you want to complicate the situation with the truth? Tongue

That's kind of why I chose the word scammed instead of victimized. I didn't clarify properly so I'll try again. Here in Pennsylvania the police are not allowed to pursue and/or stop you unless they have said proof. If they stop you without it they are breaking the law. I know this sounds like an 'honor among thieves' argument, but I consider police misconduct worse than speeding. I'm not being paid to uphold the law, nor have I taken an oath to do the same.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - ShadowHM - 12-03-2011 01:19 PM

(12-03-2011 06:34 AM)cheezz Wrote:  
(12-02-2011 10:36 AM)eppie Wrote:  
(12-02-2011 09:00 AM)cheezz Wrote:  , never realizing that they just got scammed.

Of course except for the fact that they really were speeding.....

Now why would you want to complicate the situation with the truth? Tongue

Glad to know you were able to acknowledge that. However...

Quote:That's kind of why I chose the word scammed instead of victimized. I didn't clarify properly so I'll try again. Here in Pennsylvania the police are not allowed to pursue and/or stop you unless they have said proof. If they stop you without it they are breaking the law. I know this sounds like an 'honor among thieves' argument, but I consider police misconduct worse than speeding. I'm not being paid to uphold the law, nor have I taken an oath to do the same.

That sounds like a rather circuitous way to justify poor behavior.

If the police are fenced in by rules about how they can apprehend you, that still does not absolve you from an obligation to follow the rules of the road. Just because you didn't take an oath to uphold the law doesn't mean you have no obligation to uphold it.

If you don't think the rules of the road are correct, then don't drive. And certainly don't whimper if you get caught breaking them.

Rules lawyering to get out of trouble is a game that we may all be motivated to try, but I can't applaud it in this case.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - NuurAbSaal - 12-03-2011 02:22 PM

(12-03-2011 01:19 PM)ShadowHM Wrote:  Rules lawyering to get out of trouble is a game that we may all be motivated to try, but I can't applaud it in this case.

Especially true in a situation like driving, where you don't just put yourself at risk.

take care
Tarabulus


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - LavCat - 12-04-2011 12:47 AM

I have not driven in several years, but I used to live in Pennsylvania when there was a bit of a scandal over a speeding arrest on the turnpike. The arresting officer uttered profanity and tore up the ticket when he noticed the offending driver was a uniformed state trooper and that the passenger was the governor. Since the governor was campaigning against speed limits, I figure he had the courage of his convictions.

Now I live in New Jersey where a few years ago the governor was riding in a vehicle at a very high rate of speed and crashed. Moreover he was not wearing a seatbelt.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - kandrathe - 12-04-2011 05:49 AM

(12-03-2011 02:22 PM)NuurAbSaal Wrote:  Especially true in a situation like driving, where you don't just put yourself at risk.
When I was younger, I was a terrible, terrible driver. Although, I never caused any accidents, I still drove "like a bat out of hell". That changed once I had kids. Now, I'm just a bad driver, like most people. I make mistakes, but I'm trying to follow the rules.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - Tris - 12-04-2011 06:05 AM

Hehe... 120 MPH... that would even get you a ticket in MT, before they had speed limits. Would be an excess use of fuel (or some such name) ticket.

Seen worse than that out here, but one's a pending case so I can't talk about it. Just something about wide open spaces... Though, not always in wide-open spaces. Prosecuted one guy doing between 90 and 100 in a 25 MPH zone. He got a double whammy: the license crushing speeding ticket + a license crushing reckless driving. FWIW, the 25 zone was surrounded by 45 MPH zones Tongue

Our HP Chargers do >150 MPH, some smaller-town PD's get bored and tweak their Impalas to do ~140 MPH.

I've learned something about driving: it's far more relaxing to not drive like a bat out of hell.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - kandrathe - 12-05-2011 02:00 PM

I think it's genetic. I come from a long lineage of thrill seekers and adrenaline junkies. Sky divers, SCUBA divers, ski racing, car racing, horse racing, rodeo, trick water skiing, etc...

Quote:it's far more relaxing to not drive like a bat out of hell.
Yeah, I stop myself frequently now, since I'm never in a hurry.


RE: Ever wonder where some stats come from? - cheezz - 12-06-2011 08:48 AM

I neither justify, applaud, nor whimper about anything to do with breaking traffic laws. I understand full well action and consequence. My point is that NO ONE should let ANYONE take advantage of themselves because they feel guilty about something.