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+--- Thread: Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build (/thread-976.html)
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Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Concillian - 03-21-2009
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LArczfct00bR0bZZMItrx0zid
4k Patchwerk WWS with this type of build as MT on Patchwerk:
http://wowwebstats.com/2pfvk6xtmuoc3?s=274956-311381
Pop shield block so you trigger revenge every attack and get ahead on threat. Then throw out the sunders, then cruise control with revenge and HS spam.
You would think that going so deep arms would gimp survivability, but from a full prot build all that's really lost is 2% stam and critical block. Mainly you gimp AoE tanking capability with no shockwave or damage shield in trade for supreme single target TPS.
Note that in 3.1 DPS and TPS of this build will increase dramatically with 20% more damage to revenge on talents. It also has the opportunity to pick up charge in combat with one more point out of prot (likely from gag order).
Seems like an option for prot warriors to have on their 2nd spec for a single target tanking fight (especially fast attacking bosses)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Taelas - 03-21-2009
Eh, Juggernaut only works in Battle stance, as far as I am aware. Not worth it.
But yeah, the build isn't bad.
You do lose quite a bit of damage potential.
-Devastate (+15% innate crit with S&B)
-S&B
-Shockwave (can be used single-target just fine)
-+15% innate crit on Shield Slam (Critical Block)
-+2% STR, +2 Expertise (Vitality)
-+2% crit (Cruelty)
-+3 AP/180 armor (Armored to the Teeth)
For all this, you get
-Better bleeds (Improved Rend, Trauma)
-Weapon specialization
-2 sec CD Revenge (Unrelenting Assault)
2 sec CD Revenge is nuts, of course -- but it has to be triggered to work.
More than anything, though, this build is boring ^^ Three-button wonder, heh.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Sir_Die_alot - 03-21-2009
It's a creative idea but as you pointed out it fails at various other aspects of tanking. You sacrifice tank versatility for great performance on this fight. Patch is a great place to show you can do a lot of dps but really the only other thing it will show is how good or bad your healers are.
Fun idea but unless people start having problems threat capping with warrior tanks it's impractical to have someone who will be such a lousy trash/add tank.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Concillian - 03-21-2009
Quote:Fun idea but unless people start having problems threat capping with warrior tanks it's impractical to have someone who will be such a lousy trash/add tank.
You aren't already running into cases where people are threat capping warrior tanks but not paladin tanks? Because we are.
It's definitely not a good all-around build. However with dual specs coming, and this build getting buffed, it becomes an option for the dedicated tanking warrior as a dual spec. He breaks out the traditional spec for caster bosses and trash and this spec for physical bosses. And there is more to threat than just threat. Adding 1-2k DPS is non-trivial if you're pushing an achievement bumping into an enrage on a DPS check.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-21-2009
Curious hybrid build you have there Conc. My issue with it is two-fold:
1. Axe Specialization. Very good for this build, and assumably used by people that have easy access to Last Laugh. As much as I'd love one (I don't really care for tanking swords), it's simply not practical given our raiding.
2. This one has more substance, and is the reason I've mocked every single warrior I've seen take Improved Revenge. The AP coefficient on Revenge is 0.207*AP, or in layman's terms... pathetic (The 20% from Imp. Revenge at Tiga's rather decent 4100 raid buffed AP turns out to be 144 dmg, pre-armor mit). What you're then doing, basically, is improving 20% of the base damage on Revenge. Now, in this build it obviously has some value, and thus I'm more criticizing it as a talent, rather than it's place in the revenge spam build from Hell (Hell is boring, because being in Hell is the state of not being amused).
Even so, very creative use of game mechanics & hybridization,
~FragB)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Jester - 03-21-2009
Quote:2. This one has more substance, and is the reason I've mocked every single warrior I've seen take Improved Revenge.I have improved revenge... on your advice. :unsure:
-Jester
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Concillian - 03-21-2009
1)
Well, obviously you'd take the spec that coordinated with whatever tanking weapon you were using. ArPen might be of more value with it getting buffed in 3.1 I don't know. Sword is probably on the weak side here, but doing probably around 3k DPS on a normal boss (because Patchwerk is probably more of a showcase boss for that spec and 4k is not likely realistic on a regularr boss), mace spec is probably pretty decent.
2)
Yes scaling on revenge is not good. In this build the scaling comes from more revenge usage. It does make better use of the talent because you're using it more often than 1 per 4 GCDs. Again, this parse is a showcase where his GCD usage for revenge accounts for well over 90% of the presence. On a more realistic fight it's probably more down in the 50% range. With that portion of GCD time dedicated to one skill, buffing the base damage only by 20% isn't a bad way to spend talent points. I haven't done the math, but I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't out threat points in gag order, for example.
I don't deserve any credit for this build. I just found some old post on Tankspot with a link to that WWS (the WWS is from January). Cider tried it on some raids too. It's old there, and they (rightfully) discarded it as a niche spec that's not viable for MTing a real run due to the inability to handle trash well. But in 3.1 it gains DPS (20% more revenge damage + 2% less to-be dodged if you go for weapon mastery), and the introduction of dual specs makes it viable as a second tanking spec for physical damage single tanking fights.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Concillian - 03-21-2009
Quote:I have improved revenge... on your advice. :unsure:
Frag always said he's hardest on himself, but I never thought I'd actually see him get owned by himself like this.
It's pretty awesome.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-21-2009
Quote:I have improved revenge... on your advice. :unsure:You left out a rather important piece of info to support your case, J. When did you request said advice?:D
-Jester
~FragB)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - swirly - 03-22-2009
Quote:You left out a rather important piece of info to support your case, J. When did you request said advice?:DIsn't that standard operating procedure on the lounge? Only point out the bits that you want people to see and hope they gloss over the rest? (Which they never do.)
~FragB)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-22-2009
Quote:Isn't that standard operating procedure on the lounge? Only point out the bits that you want people to see and hope they gloss over the rest? (Which they never do.)Yep, but this is Strategy & Game Mechanics, not The Lounge, silly!
~Frag :P
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Taelas - 03-22-2009
Considering the base damage, Frag, Improved Revenge is a good talent.:P
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Jester - 03-22-2009
Quote:You left out a rather important piece of info to support your case, J. When did you request said advice?:D
~FragB)
A short while after Wottle-k came out, I believe when I respecced Geld after he hit lv. 80. Has that advice gone from good to bad since then? I have no idea, it looked like a pretty decent talent then, and it still does look fairy good to me now, if only as a bonus interrupt on caster mobs.
-Jester
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-22-2009
Quote:Considering the base damage, Frag, Improved Revenge is a good talent.:PFor sure the base damage on Revenge is decent, however due it's trigger mechanic and it's akward 5s cooldown you don't use it as much as a lot of other abilities, so you lose a chunk of dps/tps by picking Imp. Revenge up in a standard 15/5/51 spec.
Quote:A short while after Wottle-k came out, I believe when I respecced Geld after he hit lv. 80. Has that advice gone from good to bad since then? I have no idea, it looked like a pretty decent talent then, and it still does look fairy good to me now, if only as a bonus interrupt on caster mobs.Yes my advice at the point was from parroting tankspot before doing some research myself and having some hard numbers.
-Jester
And to be fair, I've mocked us both plenty of times, Jester-of-Watch-Your-Step. :lol:
~Frag-He'll-Reset, Watch!B)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Jester - 03-22-2009
Quote:For sure the base damage on Revenge is decent, however due it's trigger mechanic and it's akward 5s cooldown you don't use it as much as a lot of other abilities, so you lose a chunk of dps/tps by picking Imp. Revenge up in a standard 15/5/51 spec.
Yes my advice at the point was from parroting tankspot before doing some research myself and having some hard numbers.
And to be fair, I've mocked us both plenty of times, Jester-of-Watch-Your-Step. :lol:
~Frag-He'll-Reset, Watch!B)
Just thought it was kinda funny, is all. :D
Also, entertaining bit of trivia: Kungen has Imp. Revenge.
-Jester
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Taelas - 03-22-2009
Quote:For sure the base damage on Revenge is decent, however due it's trigger mechanic and it's akward 5s cooldown you don't use it as much as a lot of other abilities, so you lose a chunk of dps/tps by picking Imp. Revenge up in a standard 15/5/51 spec.:huh:
This is a standard 15/5/51 spec. Where, pray tell, should one put the two points in Improved Revenge for increased DPS?
Improved Revenge is by far the best investment of points. The only other logical choice is Improved Sunder; however, due to Devastate's vastly reduced importance, this is a subpar.
I'm not talking out of my rear. The best warriors in the world agree.
Satrina's build
Xav's build
Ciderhelm's build
While I certainly don't want to diminish thinking out of the box, I'm baffled as to your opinion here.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Delc - 03-22-2009
Looking at a wws from one of my last raids, this is the damage breakdown by skill for the mt:
Shield slam: 2570
Revenge: 2337
Shockwave: 2320
Devastate: 747
Revenge is really good, plus its only 2 rage (with the prot talent). Unless its an unlimited rage situation its the best dmg/rage skill there is.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-22-2009
Quote:Looking at a wws from one of my last raids,Here are my stats from the last wws report we have. Revenge is roughly 10% of my total damage, with a average of ~1875 un-improved. Improved it would move to ~2250 or 375 more. It was used 251 times over ~57m of combat time or around 11% of my GCD's. The gain of 375 more damage per swing would be around a 544 threat increase or 59.8 tps increase. That's the math for Imp. Revenge.
So here's the problem... I said it would be a loss of tps/dps, which is incorrect now. It's a poor excuse, but I have been working a good bit with the 3.1 stuff where you take Imp. Disciplines as a warrior, and thus didn't see a way to pick up without losing that. As it is now, you take it if you're more concerned about threat than survival (can slide the points into Imp. SR or Shield Spec. based on what you're more concerned about killing you, Hatefuls or Powered Breaths), but I still don't see it as a major threat increase. You should get more out of one point in Cruelty, if it was possible to put more there, so it's simply the best place possible rather than a great talent, imo.
Cheers,
~FragB)
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Taelas - 03-22-2009
I won't take Imp. Disciplines even after 3.1, unless they drastically change Shield Wall. 3 minutes or 2 minutes doesn't really make enough of a difference for two talent points -- and that requires a glyph which reduces Shield Wall's effectiveness. 4 minutes definitely isn't worth it now, and won't be it after. I prefer my emergency buttons to remain emergency buttons, and not active tools like those of a Death Knight.
Also, even taking 2 minute Shield Walls into account, Imp. Disciplines is never a D/TPS increase over Imp. Revenge.;)
I agree that I'd rather have the points in Cruelty, but Shockwave prevents that.
Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build - Frag - 03-22-2009
Quote:Also, even taking 2 minute Shield Walls into account, Imp. Disciplines is never a D/TPS increase over Imp. Revenge.;)Improved Disciplines doesn't just affect Shield Wall. It also affects Recklessness which, and this may just be a playstyle thing, I use on a regular basis tanking for burst threat. So I include it as a tps increase on the encounters that last long enough for me to be able to use it twice an encounter, one right off the bat and another approximately around execute/kill time.
As for the Imp. Disc / Shield Wall Glyph thing, 60 to 40% does not make it a non-emergency button, and I would love to have something akin to a DK's cooldowns so maybe I could tank Sarth2D, let alone 3D, without getting blown to pieces. It's also coming in with Dualspecc'ing, so having a pair of complimentary tank specs will allow me to have an both an unglyph'd (w/o Imp. Disc) and glyph'd shield wall (with Imp. Disc).
Cheers,
~FragB)