Quote:Then you need to take a look at some of the EJ threads on Hunters. There's several threads of BM Hunters doing similar DPS to Marksman Hunters over a fight an d being in the top 5 DPS in 25 man raids. There are also threads theorycrafting about the affects of the synergy of the Survival Hunter with EW in 2.1 with the allowance of more physical DPS on the targets both on EJ and on the Blizzard forums.
The threads that I've seen about BM longevity/DPS and Surv dps are coming from hunters heavily weighted to succeed. They are decked out in rogue gear and have a full set of buffs and every consumable they can, in addition to having their raid group stacked for them.
As Quark said, that's not the usual or proper case. I have heard that BM and MM hunters are just about dead even for dps these days depending on who is in what group, and if the pet lives. Surv dps is still under those two.
But the point of the picture you are missing is that NONE of the three trees is even close to competitive with any other dps class (and several of the hybrids) without some serious effort put into it. Then, they are "competitive" with the low end of that class.
For a class that is supposed to be dps, that is BS. A well geared, buffed, leatherclad hunter can just keep up or outdo a half asleep rogue, mage, or warlock, if the latency gods are nice that night. That is more BS. It was/is bad enough that hunters, warriors and rogues are at each other's throats over weaponry. But now it's even worse as if hunter wants to be more than a blip on the DM, s/he needs rogue GEAR, too. In addition to slamming back Fel/Mana pots and/or haveing a pocket shadowpriest.
Itemization is a huge problem. Tiers 4 and 5 are just about useless compared to other various blues and purples. Tier 6 (as announced) is some good steps in the right direction.
Also, the fights that I've been seeing a lot of folks post DM's on and saying "hunters are just fine" are Gruul fights where the hunter found a sweet spot they didn't have to move from for the entire length of the fight. That's also an artificial measuring stick. Anyone who can stand still and nuke away is going to do more than someone else who is constantly on the move, esp with hunter dps cycles being so click and latency dependant.
Another note...I never had mana problems on the Emps (Since I was only Aimed and auto'ing. I even had spare mana for Aspect switching, with mana left over at the end of the fight). Nor did I ever have mana problems on Nef. If I was getting low, just autoshot for a bit and/or take a pot. Problem solved. My dps was still (for the most part) competitive with the other classes.
A lot of folks say "if you have mana problems, downrank." Since hunter downranking has always scaled like utter shyt, this just gets worse with the changes in 2.1. Not that downranking was really an option, as moving down ranks dropped our already meager dps right into the gutter.
So as you say, dps is becoming more important. If your dps isn't above this bar, you don't pass the fight. Having hunters in a raid is currently hurting a raids dps if you have more than 1. You may squeak by with 2, but that's pushing it. For a class that is a "Dps class", we aren't producing. Sure, we can produce in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, but those are just that, and are rare occurances, not the norm. This is the root of many hunters problems. We'd like more consistency. I do, for instance, very much like the changes to HM (as much as I dislike pvp, I do realize that it has to be taken into consideration) and changes like that are a good way to boost pve without doing too much damage to pvp.
We'd like to scale, too. Take Trueshot Aura, for instance. Can you tell me of any other skills that are almost class defining skills, obtained at lvl 40, that are unchanged at all still when you are lvl 70? It's the little things like this that have been niggling away at hunters for the last year or so, and just frusterating us. Many of us hoped that this patch would help a lot of the problems. It's hardly addressed any of them. Yay, BM does more. Yay, Surv does more. Soon they'll realize that no matter what they do, they can't even keep up, much less compete. Then they'll be at the point a lot of MM's are right now...feeling that their only spot on a raid is for a single pity skill (TSA, FI, or EW, pick your flavor) and realizing that's all they are brought along for.
When I raid...I want to feel like a part of the team. I want to feel like I have contributed to the success my friends and I are partaking in. I want to know that if I put in the work to buff out the yinyang, work the consumables, and do a perfect shot rotation on a low ping night that it'll be reflected on the DM. I want to be excited when/if I see "mail" or "Class:Hunter" stuff drop.
Right now...there are very few hunters feeling the above, which is why you are seeing a lot of the "old time" hunters disappear slowly. We feel like we are more a drag to a raid group than a help. I appreciate that my friends will take me on raids with them. I just wish that I could feel that they were doing it without my feeling I was gimping the raid by being along with them.
~Not all who wander are lost...~