2.1.0 Patch Notes

[Lissa]

The threads that I've seen about BM longevity/DPS and Surv dps are coming from hunters heavily weighted to succeed. They are decked out in rogue gear and have a full set of buffs and every consumable they can, in addition to having their raid group stacked for them.

As Quark said, that's not the usual or proper case. I have heard that BM and MM hunters are just about dead even for dps these days depending on who is in what group, and if the pet lives. Surv dps is still under those two.

I've seen some threads on EJ stating some of the opposite of what you've seen concerning BMs. Also, I didn't state that Survival would do as much, but I did state that they will have better synergy with the raid and their DPS isn't as bad as Quark makes it out to be.

But the point of the picture you are missing is that NONE of the three trees is even close to competitive with any other dps class (and several of the hybrids) without some serious effort put into it. Then, they are "competitive" with the low end of that class.

As Quark said, any class can top the meters, it depends on if you are willing to make the effort to get there or not. There are tools out there that can help a Hunter do more DPS and still have longevity the question is, are you willing to give up some of your AP and/or Crit to do it?

For a class that is supposed to be dps, that is BS. A well geared, buffed, leatherclad hunter can just keep up or outdo a half asleep rogue, mage, or warlock, if the latency gods are nice that night. That is more BS. It was/is bad enough that hunters, warriors and rogues are at each other's throats over weaponry. But now it's even worse as if hunter wants to be more than a blip on the DM, s/he needs rogue GEAR, too. In addition to slamming back Fel/Mana pots and/or haveing a pocket shadowpriest.

I dunno about you, but I've picked apart thottbot looking at gear, looking at items with sockets, and I've been able to put together, if luck holds on drops, so pretty damn good Mail gear without putting on a single piece of leather and was able to have enough +hit to never miss, over +30% crit (as Survival) unbuffed, and around 2k RAP with self buffs. The question becomes, is the Hunter willing to take the time and trouble to look for the gear and socket the gems that will help them or are they just wanting to get everything they can immediately.

Itemization is a huge problem. Tiers 4 and 5 are just about useless compared to other various blues and purples. Tier 6 (as announced) is some good steps in the right direction.

You do realize that this is the case for pretty much all classes? For most classes the Tier 4 and 5 sets suck. So this is nothing new that Hunters would see that their Tier 4 and 5 sets suck as well.

Also, the fights that I've been seeing a lot of folks post DM's on and saying "hunters are just fine" are Gruul fights where the hunter found a sweet spot they didn't have to move from for the entire length of the fight. That's also an artificial measuring stick. Anyone who can stand still and nuke away is going to do more than someone else who is constantly on the move, esp with hunter dps cycles being so click and latency dependant.

Movement affects more than just Hunters Mirajj. You atleast have more instant cast spells where you may only have to stop briefly to use. A Mage or Non-Affliction Warlock are in for the same damage loss if they have to move a lot as well, but unlike you, they're rooted in one location for 2.5s to 3.0s depending on which spell they're casting and what talents they may have to reduce cast time.

Another note...I never had mana problems on the Emps (Since I was only Aimed and auto'ing. I even had spare mana for Aspect switching, with mana left over at the end of the fight). Nor did I ever have mana problems on Nef. If I was getting low, just autoshot for a bit and/or take a pot. Problem solved. My dps was still (for the most part) competitive with the other classes.

Yes, but you didn't have to move much on those fights either. You also now have ways to get around some of that with the gem sockets, its up to you to choose if you want to give up some AP to regen mana at all times or not. We both realize that +spirit is mostly useless to the Hunter because the Hutner is constantly under the 5 second rule, but MP5, while you hate it, is still going to give you longevity.

A lot of folks say "if you have mana problems, downrank." Since hunter downranking has always scaled like utter shyt, this just gets worse with the changes in 2.1. Not that downranking was really an option, as moving down ranks dropped our already meager dps right into the gutter.

Again, the problem you're seeing, and this a problem that anyone that has to stay planted in a location for a few seconds to do DPS, is that movement is hurting you DPS. Few classes are not hurt on DPS by moving around a bunch, but most are.

So as you say, dps is becoming more important. If your dps isn't above this bar, you don't pass the fight. Having hunters in a raid is currently hurting a raids dps if you have more than 1. You may squeak by with 2, but that's pushing it. For a class that is a "Dps class", we aren't producing. Sure, we can produce in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, but those are just that, and are rare occurances, not the norm. This is the root of many hunters problems. We'd like more consistency. I do, for instance, very much like the changes to HM (as much as I dislike pvp, I do realize that it has to be taken into consideration) and changes like that are a good way to boost pve without doing too much damage to pvp.

No Mirajj, it's not "your" DPS, it's the "team's" DPS that is important. There's a big difference there. If the team is to succeed the DPS of the team needs to be maximized, this does not mean that every single DPSer has to be doing maximum DPS, but they do have to bring something to boost the DPS of the other team members. BM and Surivival do this, MM really doesn't.

We'd like to scale, too. Take Trueshot Aura, for instance. Can you tell me of any other skills that are almost class defining skills, obtained at lvl 40, that are unchanged at all still when you are lvl 70? It's the little things like this that have been niggling away at hunters for the last year or so, and just frusterating us. Many of us hoped that this patch would help a lot of the problems. It's hardly addressed any of them. Yay, BM does more. Yay, Surv does more. Soon they'll realize that no matter what they do, they can't even keep up, much less compete. Then they'll be at the point a lot of MM's are right now...feeling that their only spot on a raid is for a single pity skill (TSA, FI, or EW, pick your flavor) and realizing that's all they are brought along for.

First a nit, I wouldn't call TSA class defining in the least. TSA is a talent power and as such will depend on the taste of the player. A class definining skill is something that is part of the natural build of that class without taking talents into it.

Now, I have to disagree completely on scaling. You're looking at one or two specific skills that are not scaling, and one of those is a talent. If you look at what you have available to the hunter, just about everything scales whether you want to believe that or not. There was a time where Arcane Shot did not scale at all, now it does. And again, you missing the new mantra of raids in tBC, it's not about individial damage that some brings, but the damage of the team. If you can boost the team's damage, they even if your solo damage isn't up to par of some others, you will still get a spot because you benefit the team. BM and Survival have this, Marksman doesn't because it's always been about increasing the Hunter's solo power, not the team's power.

When I raid...I want to feel like a part of the team. I want to feel like I have contributed to the success my friends and I are partaking in. I want to know that if I put in the work to buff out the yinyang, work the consumables, and do a perfect shot rotation on a low ping night that it'll be reflected on the DM. I want to be excited when/if I see "mail" or "Class:Hunter" stuff drop.

Ok, let me pound this into your head, it's not about your damage, it's about the team's damage. Until you get the "me" out you're going to continue to feel this way. Pre-tBC you could get away with the "me", but that is not the way it is in tBC, now it's "team". If I raid led more often I wouldn't care as much about the individual damage of players as I would about the team's overall damage output. If you do say 800 DPS and the top damage dealers are doing 1300 DPS, I'm going to over look your 500 DPS drop if you are boosting other members of the raid by 300 and 400 DPS, cause that is effectively boosting the team's DPS instead of your own. So stop thinking it's all about your DPS, cause it's not, it's about the team's.

Right now...there are very few hunters feeling the above, which is why you are seeing a lot of the "old time" hunters disappear slowly. We feel like we are more a drag to a raid group than a help. I appreciate that my friends will take me on raids with them. I just wish that I could feel that they were doing it without my feeling I was gimping the raid by being along with them.

A lot of the old time Hunters need to realize that things have changed and that the world does not revolve around them (nor any other class). When you raid, you raid with a group of people in a team to accomplish a goal, you are not a group of individuals trying to achieve a common goal. The sooner people change this mindset, the sooner they will be happy. So stop thinking about "me" and starting thinking about "us".