12-27-2004, 07:24 PM
A few questions regarding traps in general and specifically the dreaded (by IM characters) Fire-arrow trap.
According to Jarulfâs Guide, the To Hit of traps is:
To Hit for an arrow trap: 100 - AC/2
To Hit for a magic trap: 40
And according to JGâs, âmagic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. â Now this cannot be an all-inclusive list in an of itself: the Firebolt trap and Nova trap are definitely magic traps and yet are not mentioned.
So, if we try to qualify the traps:
Arrow trap to hit: 100 - AC/2.
Firebolt to hit: obviously Magic trap so to hit so 40%.
Lightning trap: if you stand in the tile through which the lightning passes, you take appropriate damage. It is unblockable. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Nova: again, if you stand in a tile adjacent to the chest from which the Nova originates, youWILL take damage, the question only being how much. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Ring of Fire trap: again, you stand in the tile that has fire in it, you take damage, the only question being how much -- so, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Barrel traps: treated like Firebolt, can be blocked, yet if you stand in a tile that is NOT going to be hit with barrel trap damage, you take none, yet if you stand in a tile that IS to take barrel trap damage, there is a 100% chance youâll be hit with a chance youâll block the damage?
So does the 40% to hit of certain Magic traps (Lightning, Nova, Ring of Fire) have more to do with HOW MUCH damage you will take rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you (since if you stand in the appropriate tile, you stand a 100% chance to be hit)? So JGâs should instead read youâll take 40% of the total damage, or youâll only take 40% of the damage over time while you stand in the fireghtning? Youâll ALWAYS take damage, itâs just a matter of the amount? So listing a âto hitâ for these traps concerns the damage you take over time rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you? Otherwise, you should be able to stand in the path of a lightning trap or even inside a RoF trap and take NO damage in very very very rare cases if the âtrapâ is only âhittingâ 40% of the time?
And what about PvP? JGâs states: âmagic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. â Shouldnât this be testable? Go PvP and cast a Flame Wave at an opponent -- rather than take the damage listed in the casterâs spell book, the opponent should only take at maximum 40% of that damage (assuming 0% fire resists and no shield to block with)? It wouldnât be that the Flame Wave would âhitâ only 40% of the time, but that it would hit doing
40% of the damage? Or, does Flame Wave actually MISS 60% of the time in PvP?
So, what does this actual 40% to hit of Magic Traps mean?
*****
Ok, and now we get to the lovely Fire-arrow trap, bane of many an IM game. Is the Fire-arrow trap an âarrow trapâ for to hit purposes, or a âmagic trapâ? This matters quite a bit, since if it has arrow trap to hit, one should try to max AC so that the trap wonât hit in the first place. If it is Magic trap to hit and has the autohit value of 40%, then AC be darned and go for the fire resistance or -dfe instead. Or, does the Arrow have to hit FIRST (thus arrow trap to hit considerations) and the Fire damage rendered afterwards âhitâ 40% of the time (of doing only 40% of its damage)? Thus go all out AC to try to make the durn arrow miss in the first place?
And just how does the fire damage (assuming youâve been hit by the arrow) actually take place? If it takes place much like fire and lightning arrows on bows, then according to JGâs: âas soon as the fire or lightning arrow hits and has done its non magical damage, the effect will switch into a fire or lightning damage attack, quite similar to the one spawned for melee attacks. This extra fire or lightning attack will, as opposed to with melee attacks, hit more than once and will try 7 times (9 if fire) before it ends.â
Do we assume that the physical arrow itself of the Fire arrow trap does 0 damage, and the damage comes from the fire? Being a fire arrow, the damage will try to strike you 9 times before it ends? If you have no fire resists, is this blockable? Some of it? None of it? All of it? Is it possible to block the _arrow_ yet still take the fire damage (thus, it would be better not to even use a shield?)?
And just how does this fire damage take place? If it happens âover timeâ, does the damage strike you sequentially (i.e., you get hit nine separate times over the course of âSpeed/Duration 32â? Or is all the damage calculated to hit you in one massive strike)?
This would matter for your gear set up in preparation for opening a chest trapped with a fire arrow. The damage for the said trap is: âMin: dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1 ,Max: 2·dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1â. Now letâs just suppose the Rnd[10] in this specific case is 1 and the trap is found on dlevel 5 of Cats.
Min damage = 5 + 1 + 1 = 7, while Max damage = (2x5) +1 + 1 = 12
Average damage is 19/2 or 9.5 -- round it up or truncate it? For the sake of this investigation, letâs round up to 10.
Now remember this damage can hit you a maximum of nine times. Thus weâd have 9 x 10 = 90 points of damage. (And yes, the Rnd[10] would have to be 1 in all nine considerations for this to happen, which probably isn't very likely, but I'm not sure whether the game re-rolls this Rnd[10] each of the nine times or not.)
Now suppose you found and IDed a cap of Protection, giving -2 to damage, and you got Arkaineâs Valor from the level which is another -3 dfe for a total of -5 dfe.
If the damage takes place ALL AT ONCE, youâd take 90 - 5 = 85 damage.
Ah, but if the damage takes place sequentially, and if the -5dfe is assessed versus EACH separate fire damage hit, then youâd take 9 x (10-5dfe) = 9 x 5 = 45 damage!
What a difference!
Then suppose instead that you've found and IDed an armor that reduces fire damage by 20%. If the damage takes place all at once, youâll take 90 - (90 x 20%) = 90 - 18 = 72 damage. If separate, 9 x (10 - [10 x 20%]) = 9 x (10 - 2) = 9 x 8 = 72 damage; same regardless of how the damage reduction is calculated.
The upshot? Depending upon how the damage is calculated -- in one fell swoop or in mini-steps -- your characterâs setup can determine whether he lives or dies. If in one fell swoop, go for the fire resistances. If in mini-steps, try to max your -dfe.
And where does blocking enter into this? If you have no fire resists, can you âblockâ the fire damage even though the âarrowâ has hit you? Would you still take the multiple damage (nine times) or can you block some of it? After all, you can block the fire damage of a Firebolt trap.
IMO Iâve noticed when struck by a particularly devastating Fire arrow trap that my health drops in increments, in steps. Iâve even been able to quickly drink a red potion while this damage is going on and survive it, though even AFTER Iâve drunk the red and it has taken effect (restored my full health) Iâve still taken further damage. Iâve also tested this in single player -- with full health step up and open the fire-arrow trapped chest and die to damage. Reload. Open the chest again, and this time drink while the damage is being doled out upon you. Live through the damage. So this would seem to support the âdamage is done in stepsâ hypothesis.
Yet on the other hand -dfe doesnât seem to do squat for certain traps, especially Nova traps, although this is merely anecdotal eveidence on my part.
So I guess the later portion of this post boils down to three major questions:
#1 how is the TO HIT of the Fire-arrow trap figured, both for the âarrowâ and the âfireâ,
#2 how is the DAMAGE of said trap figured (mini-steps or one massive strike), and
#3 what is the best setup to have in dealing with this trap?
Your thoughts?
Attika
According to Jarulfâs Guide, the To Hit of traps is:
To Hit for an arrow trap: 100 - AC/2
To Hit for a magic trap: 40
And according to JGâs, âmagic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. â Now this cannot be an all-inclusive list in an of itself: the Firebolt trap and Nova trap are definitely magic traps and yet are not mentioned.
So, if we try to qualify the traps:
Arrow trap to hit: 100 - AC/2.
Firebolt to hit: obviously Magic trap so to hit so 40%.
Lightning trap: if you stand in the tile through which the lightning passes, you take appropriate damage. It is unblockable. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Nova: again, if you stand in a tile adjacent to the chest from which the Nova originates, youWILL take damage, the question only being how much. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Ring of Fire trap: again, you stand in the tile that has fire in it, you take damage, the only question being how much -- so, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)
Barrel traps: treated like Firebolt, can be blocked, yet if you stand in a tile that is NOT going to be hit with barrel trap damage, you take none, yet if you stand in a tile that IS to take barrel trap damage, there is a 100% chance youâll be hit with a chance youâll block the damage?
So does the 40% to hit of certain Magic traps (Lightning, Nova, Ring of Fire) have more to do with HOW MUCH damage you will take rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you (since if you stand in the appropriate tile, you stand a 100% chance to be hit)? So JGâs should instead read youâll take 40% of the total damage, or youâll only take 40% of the damage over time while you stand in the fireghtning? Youâll ALWAYS take damage, itâs just a matter of the amount? So listing a âto hitâ for these traps concerns the damage you take over time rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you? Otherwise, you should be able to stand in the path of a lightning trap or even inside a RoF trap and take NO damage in very very very rare cases if the âtrapâ is only âhittingâ 40% of the time?
And what about PvP? JGâs states: âmagic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. â Shouldnât this be testable? Go PvP and cast a Flame Wave at an opponent -- rather than take the damage listed in the casterâs spell book, the opponent should only take at maximum 40% of that damage (assuming 0% fire resists and no shield to block with)? It wouldnât be that the Flame Wave would âhitâ only 40% of the time, but that it would hit doing
40% of the damage? Or, does Flame Wave actually MISS 60% of the time in PvP?
So, what does this actual 40% to hit of Magic Traps mean?
*****
Ok, and now we get to the lovely Fire-arrow trap, bane of many an IM game. Is the Fire-arrow trap an âarrow trapâ for to hit purposes, or a âmagic trapâ? This matters quite a bit, since if it has arrow trap to hit, one should try to max AC so that the trap wonât hit in the first place. If it is Magic trap to hit and has the autohit value of 40%, then AC be darned and go for the fire resistance or -dfe instead. Or, does the Arrow have to hit FIRST (thus arrow trap to hit considerations) and the Fire damage rendered afterwards âhitâ 40% of the time (of doing only 40% of its damage)? Thus go all out AC to try to make the durn arrow miss in the first place?
And just how does the fire damage (assuming youâve been hit by the arrow) actually take place? If it takes place much like fire and lightning arrows on bows, then according to JGâs: âas soon as the fire or lightning arrow hits and has done its non magical damage, the effect will switch into a fire or lightning damage attack, quite similar to the one spawned for melee attacks. This extra fire or lightning attack will, as opposed to with melee attacks, hit more than once and will try 7 times (9 if fire) before it ends.â
Do we assume that the physical arrow itself of the Fire arrow trap does 0 damage, and the damage comes from the fire? Being a fire arrow, the damage will try to strike you 9 times before it ends? If you have no fire resists, is this blockable? Some of it? None of it? All of it? Is it possible to block the _arrow_ yet still take the fire damage (thus, it would be better not to even use a shield?)?
And just how does this fire damage take place? If it happens âover timeâ, does the damage strike you sequentially (i.e., you get hit nine separate times over the course of âSpeed/Duration 32â? Or is all the damage calculated to hit you in one massive strike)?
This would matter for your gear set up in preparation for opening a chest trapped with a fire arrow. The damage for the said trap is: âMin: dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1 ,Max: 2·dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1â. Now letâs just suppose the Rnd[10] in this specific case is 1 and the trap is found on dlevel 5 of Cats.
Min damage = 5 + 1 + 1 = 7, while Max damage = (2x5) +1 + 1 = 12
Average damage is 19/2 or 9.5 -- round it up or truncate it? For the sake of this investigation, letâs round up to 10.
Now remember this damage can hit you a maximum of nine times. Thus weâd have 9 x 10 = 90 points of damage. (And yes, the Rnd[10] would have to be 1 in all nine considerations for this to happen, which probably isn't very likely, but I'm not sure whether the game re-rolls this Rnd[10] each of the nine times or not.)
Now suppose you found and IDed a cap of Protection, giving -2 to damage, and you got Arkaineâs Valor from the level which is another -3 dfe for a total of -5 dfe.
If the damage takes place ALL AT ONCE, youâd take 90 - 5 = 85 damage.
Ah, but if the damage takes place sequentially, and if the -5dfe is assessed versus EACH separate fire damage hit, then youâd take 9 x (10-5dfe) = 9 x 5 = 45 damage!
What a difference!
Then suppose instead that you've found and IDed an armor that reduces fire damage by 20%. If the damage takes place all at once, youâll take 90 - (90 x 20%) = 90 - 18 = 72 damage. If separate, 9 x (10 - [10 x 20%]) = 9 x (10 - 2) = 9 x 8 = 72 damage; same regardless of how the damage reduction is calculated.
The upshot? Depending upon how the damage is calculated -- in one fell swoop or in mini-steps -- your characterâs setup can determine whether he lives or dies. If in one fell swoop, go for the fire resistances. If in mini-steps, try to max your -dfe.
And where does blocking enter into this? If you have no fire resists, can you âblockâ the fire damage even though the âarrowâ has hit you? Would you still take the multiple damage (nine times) or can you block some of it? After all, you can block the fire damage of a Firebolt trap.
IMO Iâve noticed when struck by a particularly devastating Fire arrow trap that my health drops in increments, in steps. Iâve even been able to quickly drink a red potion while this damage is going on and survive it, though even AFTER Iâve drunk the red and it has taken effect (restored my full health) Iâve still taken further damage. Iâve also tested this in single player -- with full health step up and open the fire-arrow trapped chest and die to damage. Reload. Open the chest again, and this time drink while the damage is being doled out upon you. Live through the damage. So this would seem to support the âdamage is done in stepsâ hypothesis.
Yet on the other hand -dfe doesnât seem to do squat for certain traps, especially Nova traps, although this is merely anecdotal eveidence on my part.
So I guess the later portion of this post boils down to three major questions:
#1 how is the TO HIT of the Fire-arrow trap figured, both for the âarrowâ and the âfireâ,
#2 how is the DAMAGE of said trap figured (mini-steps or one massive strike), and
#3 what is the best setup to have in dealing with this trap?
Your thoughts?
Attika