01-12-2012, 08:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2012, 10:02 PM by FireIceTalon.)
You are partially correct, Comrade Taem. It is my view (and the fundamental view of pretty much all Marxists in general) that all political systems and institutions, regardless of what they stand for, be they liberal or conservative, or theocratic, are designed only to uphold the interest of those who control and run society, i.e. the Capitalists in our current society. This is why it baffles me that so many conservatives, and especially Libertarians want virtually almost no government other than providing national security and infrastructure purposes, but are all for keeping the Capitalist system intact. You cannot keep this system intact WITHOUT having a large and powerful centralized state. To keep the interests of the ruling class intact, a elected set of delegates is needed to make sure the rules and laws of society carry this out. A large and powerful government is necessary for Capitalism, or any other system of rulers and ruled, to keep it intact. There are two components to society as we (Marxists) see it: the Base (the mode of production and the social relationships manifested by it) and the Superstructure (political systems and institutions, culture, etc). The Superstructure is a product of the Base, and exists to keep the Base intact. Although the Superstructure does have some impact on the course of society, the Base is the predominant factor in how society is organized. For us, the Base must be changed so that ALL of society controls and shares the means to production rather than a select few. As a result, the Superstructure will thus no longer be needed, because the Proletarian (the vast majority of society) has achieved economic democracy.
You are overstating my "perfect" society though. Marxists do not promise a perfect society. Only a better one than what we currently have, albeit much better. But perfect? No. Even if we had a successful Socialist revolution, we would still be a ways off from achieving the ideal society where humanity would be emancipated from the shackles of Capitalism. The transformation from Socialism into full-blown Communism itself would be lengthy and complex, and there is great debate on how this process would be carried out....some Marxists think this transformation would be as long and difficult as the transformation from Capitalism into Socialism although I don't necessarily agree.
As for people wanting to be led, I am not so sure this is completely true. But even if so, this is because they are CONDITIONED to think that way, as your post mentions. Our society implies and indoctrinates us (falsely) that Capitalism and Democracy go hand in hand, or that religion needs to be the foundation for our morals and guiding us in how we treat our fellow citizens. We are not born this way however, and thus my vision isn't flawed, because people have the ability to change. If people were born this way, you would be right. But they are not: As material conditions in society change, so do the behavior, actions, and nature of the people in that society. If people are indoctrinated, they can be un-indontrinated as well (is that a word?). All the revolutions in the fabric of history are proof of this. But of course, many things must happen first for these changes to take place - it won't just happen spontaneously. Right now, most of society is in a state of "false consciousness", and needs to reach "class consciousness". But on the other hand, to think Capitalism is universal and is thus eternal, is not only deterministic, but incorrect as well if we go by history since every previous system has reached an apex, then replaced with a new system where the previous ruled class became the new ruling class. The class antagonisms though have become much more simplified under Capitalism, compared to prior modes of production. A Socialist society, being the next stage in history after Capitalism, will end this trend by not merely simplifying class distinctions, but by eliminating them entirely....and thus leading to the highest (note: not perfect) form of society possible - Communism. I should note that Marx used the terms Socialism and Communism interchangeably, but contemporary Marxists have made a distinction between the two, that Socialism is the transitory stage between Capitalism and Communism. Communism only occurs when Socialism becomes so deeply embedded into society that all elements of the former Bourgeois society are no longer existent, and when "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" is in fact the defining element of the mode to production and the social relationships resulting from it. So what happens after Communism then? From that point, humanity can keep progressing, until it reaches its maximum potential - however close to "perfect" that may be, is impossible to say but such measures at that point would probably be trivial anyway (if there even is a so-called maximum potential). We use "utopian" principles not to achieve a utopian society, but as a MEANS to creating the best POSSIBLE society. Under Capitalism, we have absolutely no reason to believe this is the best we have or can get. Other then the fact that those who have the game rigged in their favor tell us this is the best we can do, which leads me to....
The leaders of society control all aspects of it: Economics first and foremost, but also culture, politics, education, information and mass media, technology, and so forth. This does indeed make change very difficult, but not impossible. And as long as anything is possible, I see no reason to stop fighting for it, no matter how daunting or long it may be. Indeed, my views are probably very difficult for most to understand, let alone get on board with - we have lived under oppression, social/cultural/and psychological brainwashing, misinformation, and barbarism for so long now, under a system that claims this is the best we got or can have, that to think anything else is possible is absurd to many individuals - but this in itself is absurd to me. The elites WANT you to think this way - because this hinders progress and prolongs their stay in power. I used to think that way a couple years ago myself - before going back to school, as well as through my own research and analysis, that there is indeed a better way for us. It is truly a higher level of thinking and vision for society. American leadership has pounded into our heads so deeply that Communism is totally evil and that Capitalism is so great, that it is difficult for many to get past this propaganda and misinformation. It takes very serious critical thinking and careful research to be able to have views like mine, but I think it is possible for everyone to achieve. Marxism is only radical in the sense of viewing society in the current context of the conditions in which we currently live - when viewed from what is possible for the human condition, it is second nature, and in fact, I am at the point where I cannot imagine myself being anything other than a Communist. It isn't just about achieving equality - it is something much deeper and more fundamental than that. It is the emancipation of humanity from our lives being robot commodities in a system that requires us to simply work 9-5 everyday just to pay bills because our survival depends upon it, and maybe if we are lucky we can retire at age 65 and live out what is left of our twilight years in peace IF we still have our health and our sanity. Can our full potential as humans be reached under such strife conditions? I do not believe so. In fact, I KNOW they cannot.
I wish we could just somehow go straight into a Communist society so we would never ever have to talk about politics, religion, or social injustice ever again, and people like me would have no longer have a need to be Marxist anymore, heh. Instead, we could focus on far more positive and important things like science, technology, culture and ethics, traveling, art, and most importantly, love. Not that society would be perfect, but the problems would be so much more trivial than the ones we have now. Capitalism is so anti-human, and I am positive that the morale and dignity of human beings would be far better off emotionally, physically, and psychologically in a Communist world. Sorry for the long post, but I think I put everything on the table now.
You are overstating my "perfect" society though. Marxists do not promise a perfect society. Only a better one than what we currently have, albeit much better. But perfect? No. Even if we had a successful Socialist revolution, we would still be a ways off from achieving the ideal society where humanity would be emancipated from the shackles of Capitalism. The transformation from Socialism into full-blown Communism itself would be lengthy and complex, and there is great debate on how this process would be carried out....some Marxists think this transformation would be as long and difficult as the transformation from Capitalism into Socialism although I don't necessarily agree.
As for people wanting to be led, I am not so sure this is completely true. But even if so, this is because they are CONDITIONED to think that way, as your post mentions. Our society implies and indoctrinates us (falsely) that Capitalism and Democracy go hand in hand, or that religion needs to be the foundation for our morals and guiding us in how we treat our fellow citizens. We are not born this way however, and thus my vision isn't flawed, because people have the ability to change. If people were born this way, you would be right. But they are not: As material conditions in society change, so do the behavior, actions, and nature of the people in that society. If people are indoctrinated, they can be un-indontrinated as well (is that a word?). All the revolutions in the fabric of history are proof of this. But of course, many things must happen first for these changes to take place - it won't just happen spontaneously. Right now, most of society is in a state of "false consciousness", and needs to reach "class consciousness". But on the other hand, to think Capitalism is universal and is thus eternal, is not only deterministic, but incorrect as well if we go by history since every previous system has reached an apex, then replaced with a new system where the previous ruled class became the new ruling class. The class antagonisms though have become much more simplified under Capitalism, compared to prior modes of production. A Socialist society, being the next stage in history after Capitalism, will end this trend by not merely simplifying class distinctions, but by eliminating them entirely....and thus leading to the highest (note: not perfect) form of society possible - Communism. I should note that Marx used the terms Socialism and Communism interchangeably, but contemporary Marxists have made a distinction between the two, that Socialism is the transitory stage between Capitalism and Communism. Communism only occurs when Socialism becomes so deeply embedded into society that all elements of the former Bourgeois society are no longer existent, and when "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" is in fact the defining element of the mode to production and the social relationships resulting from it. So what happens after Communism then? From that point, humanity can keep progressing, until it reaches its maximum potential - however close to "perfect" that may be, is impossible to say but such measures at that point would probably be trivial anyway (if there even is a so-called maximum potential). We use "utopian" principles not to achieve a utopian society, but as a MEANS to creating the best POSSIBLE society. Under Capitalism, we have absolutely no reason to believe this is the best we have or can get. Other then the fact that those who have the game rigged in their favor tell us this is the best we can do, which leads me to....
The leaders of society control all aspects of it: Economics first and foremost, but also culture, politics, education, information and mass media, technology, and so forth. This does indeed make change very difficult, but not impossible. And as long as anything is possible, I see no reason to stop fighting for it, no matter how daunting or long it may be. Indeed, my views are probably very difficult for most to understand, let alone get on board with - we have lived under oppression, social/cultural/and psychological brainwashing, misinformation, and barbarism for so long now, under a system that claims this is the best we got or can have, that to think anything else is possible is absurd to many individuals - but this in itself is absurd to me. The elites WANT you to think this way - because this hinders progress and prolongs their stay in power. I used to think that way a couple years ago myself - before going back to school, as well as through my own research and analysis, that there is indeed a better way for us. It is truly a higher level of thinking and vision for society. American leadership has pounded into our heads so deeply that Communism is totally evil and that Capitalism is so great, that it is difficult for many to get past this propaganda and misinformation. It takes very serious critical thinking and careful research to be able to have views like mine, but I think it is possible for everyone to achieve. Marxism is only radical in the sense of viewing society in the current context of the conditions in which we currently live - when viewed from what is possible for the human condition, it is second nature, and in fact, I am at the point where I cannot imagine myself being anything other than a Communist. It isn't just about achieving equality - it is something much deeper and more fundamental than that. It is the emancipation of humanity from our lives being robot commodities in a system that requires us to simply work 9-5 everyday just to pay bills because our survival depends upon it, and maybe if we are lucky we can retire at age 65 and live out what is left of our twilight years in peace IF we still have our health and our sanity. Can our full potential as humans be reached under such strife conditions? I do not believe so. In fact, I KNOW they cannot.
I wish we could just somehow go straight into a Communist society so we would never ever have to talk about politics, religion, or social injustice ever again, and people like me would have no longer have a need to be Marxist anymore, heh. Instead, we could focus on far more positive and important things like science, technology, culture and ethics, traveling, art, and most importantly, love. Not that society would be perfect, but the problems would be so much more trivial than the ones we have now. Capitalism is so anti-human, and I am positive that the morale and dignity of human beings would be far better off emotionally, physically, and psychologically in a Communist world. Sorry for the long post, but I think I put everything on the table now.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)