U.S. Government shuts down.
#77
Quote:But "capitalism" survived through it, and in retrospect, still looked like a much better system overall than any of the alternatives that were so popular in the 1930s. Communists of various stripes have been predicting the imminent end of capitalism under the weight of its own contradictions pretty much constantly for about a century and a half now. It frankly seems a little eschatological, at this point. Keynes seems to be right - it's possible for "capitalism" to correct itself sufficiently to sustain the core concepts, and it's a fair sight better than any alternative we've seen so far. Maybe he won't continue to be right, but I wouldn't bet against it, myself.

Ah, but it didn't survive on its own accord or merit - it required a heavy handed state to resurrect it. It doesn't correct itself, again, it needs a heavy handed state to keep it alive. Free markets are a myth, which is why libertarian ideology is so unrealistic and naive. Keynesian economics has proven better and more stable for sustaining capitalism longer than neo-liberal polices, but it too is also naive, for the simple fact reform policies always eventually lead back to liberal capitalist policies becoming a part of everyday political discourse, and rollbacks of prior "progress" are inevitable at some point - we're seeing it right now, and have seen it in the past numerous times. I've talked to a few comrades from Sweden for instance, who have stated the political climate there has seen a significant shift to the right, and libertarian-like ideologies which would have never even been considered a decade ago, are now regularly on the table for discussion. Although I can't remember specifically which policies they mentioned, they have said there has been substantial austerity taking place (even if Sweden remains one of the prominent 'social democracies' for now). Whether it uses liberal measures (U.S.), Keynesian economics/social democracy (Western Europe), Stalinism/social democracy with bayonets (former USSR) or fascism (Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy); the state is an organ of class rulership - a mediator whose presence is necessary for the protection of private capital. Further it is important to remember that the piecemeal reforms granted to workers, that are now being rolled back, didn't just come: they had to fight and struggle for them, which in itself was a very violent, and generally unpleasant process for millions of working class people. Luxemburg said it best when regarding reformation: "Our program becomes not the realization of socialism, but the reform of capitalism; not the suppression of the wage labor system but the diminution of exploitation, that is, the suppression of the abuses of capitalism instead of suppression of capitalism itself."

In any case, I don't think the state can keep bailing it out forever, eventually these contradictions will become unsustainable - for capitalism cannot produce continued growth in a world of limited space and resources, AND have perfect "competition". Nor can production for profit and production for human need be reconciled - it is one or the other and under capitalism the former is necessary. Keynesian policy also does not (nor can it) address the fact of capitalism's inherent exploitative nature, even when its not "in crisis" - the fact that the capitalist class produces no or little value yet it consumes the most. The workers, who have only their labor power to sell, produce the vast majority of the value created in society and are compensated for far less than that value of what they produce because the capitalist extracts a "surplus value" from the workers labor - is this not an indisputable fact? I am going to go out on a limb, and bet against Keynesian economics in the long run. Whether socialism replaces capitalism is another matter to debate, but capitalism CANNOT be sustained, and will inevitably be replaced with something else (just as feudalism's demise was inevitable by 1789). From what I can see, the only alternatives are the victory of socialism, or a transition into a degenerate, more barbaric society mixed in with some features of Huxley's "Brave New World".....for revolutionary leftists, we want to ensure the former occurs, and prevent the latter.

Quote:Whether the government shutdown represents this kind of thing? It seems rather fanciful to me, and requires a view where a ruling class is simultaneously doing fantastically well, but also completely losing control. Also, where they conspire constantly to keep the little guy down, but also bicker among themselves over social policy to the point of almost overturning the whole apple cart. I don't think this is a very realistic view of anyone's actual motivations here.
The capitalist class is factionalized, but are well organized and 'class conscious' relative to workers. Even they know their control rests heavily on their dominant ideology being the prevailing one - and that it is important for it to be convincing enough that the rest of us accept it (I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but more on that later). They probably understand their power is not absolute (as history has shown in previous stages of society with prior ruling classes), and when the system breaks down they become more fearful of losing that power, even if they are making record profits. Their security is only as good as the stability of the system itself. And in the wake of the Great Recession, anti-capitalist sentiment has grown very strongly across the globe (of course, this doesn't necessarily translate to "pro-socialist" views, but it certainly leaves the door open for them). Which is at least partially why we are seeing stronger policies of austerity, the development of fascist parties, and the use of more state and police force in general. They are afraid, very afraid - and they should be. Even they are finding it difficult to control their own system at this point, and the US government shutdown is just one example of this. Not to mention places like Greece, which has developed a fascist party (Golden Dawn) to attack whatever the predominant scapegoat is perceived to be at the time for their economic and social problems, but there is also potential anarchist and Marxist groups developing, and the place is a powder keg for a Leftist revolution. One can only hope that a prominent one develops to counter Golden Dawn and prevent a fascist dictatorship from becoming the material reality of Greece's future. Unfortunately, this is not in the EU's interest, and although a fascist dictatorship probably isn't either, it's likely considered the lesser of two evils since there maybe a chance to salvage EU interests should the latter case occur, with more leverage for political negotiation. In the case of a communist/anarchist or leftist revolution in general, the EU will almost certainly lack that leverage, and can pretty much kiss its interests in Greece goodbye should that be what takes place.

That being said, I don't consider capitalism to be some crazy "conspiracy" to keep the little guy down. It is simply the natural result due to the intrinsic property relationships that characterize it. Marx/Engels stated this in a much more eloquent fashion than myself: "Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class". To be honest, that little cartoon you posted is funny, and I actually agree with what it is getting at. But again, I don't think the exploitation in capitalism is a conspiracy so much as it is just a organic result its social relationships and the corresponding class structure. Do I think ideology is consciously used to manipulate opinion and present capitalism as something that it really is not, in order to protect the status quo? To some extent, yes (Fox News being a prime example). But the exploitation in capitalism and its power relations are more subtle than in other oppressive systems such as chattel slavery or feudalism, and therefore substantially more difficult for one to detect if he/she looks at things at face value alone. I think ideology as false consciousness both fosters and reinforces this, but like the exploitation itself - it is also seems a natural development of the systems processes more than it is an abstract conspiracy that was purposely devised to achieve a specific agenda. In my humble opinion, at least.

And I could be incorrect about this, but I don't think much of the ruling class even views the relationship between labor and capital as being an antagonistic one; lots of them simply look at it as being a fair exchange that benefits both sides. But this is far from being the case, regardless if they are aware of it or not isn't so important. Capital does in fact exploit labor - because it has to. Even the most "benign" capitalist must engage in exploitation of the working class to some degree, otherwise his fellow capitalist competitors will leave him in the dust, ultimately removing him from the market. It just comes down to objective class interests: The capitalists want to preserve and expand their larger class interests (more profits and the accumulation of capital), which is actually very rational (even if capitalism itself is not a very rational system, economically or socially). By the same token, it is in OUR rational class interests as workers, who have only our labor power to sell so we can survive, to oppose capitalism; since it has demonstrably proven, and continues to prove, to not be in our class interests (survival, worker self-determination & dignity, production based on human-need instead of commodity production for profit, the abolishment of both capital and wage labor, and free democratic association for every individual to utilize and maximize their talents/abilities to meet their needs - without the ownership of their labor and the value it creates being expropriated by a small property-owning plutocratic class). If that makes any sense.

That is my humble view of things. Apologies for the lengthy post, but I needed to clarify much here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-01-2013, 04:23 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-01-2013, 04:46 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-01-2013, 07:54 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-01-2013, 08:01 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-01-2013, 09:31 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Kevin - 10-01-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Archon_Wing - 10-01-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-01-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Archon_Wing - 10-01-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-01-2013, 11:27 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Archon_Wing - 10-02-2013, 12:10 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-02-2013, 03:32 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-02-2013, 03:48 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-02-2013, 04:58 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Archon_Wing - 10-02-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-02-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-02-2013, 10:15 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Lissa - 10-03-2013, 05:31 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-01-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-02-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-02-2013, 02:19 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-02-2013, 05:34 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-02-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-02-2013, 09:53 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-02-2013, 09:25 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-03-2013, 01:28 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-03-2013, 03:54 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-03-2013, 06:01 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-03-2013, 06:55 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Nystul - 10-03-2013, 07:40 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-03-2013, 01:38 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-03-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-03-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-04-2013, 03:46 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-04-2013, 07:25 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-04-2013, 11:11 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-04-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-04-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-04-2013, 03:50 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-04-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-04-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-04-2013, 05:08 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-04-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-05-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-05-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-04-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-04-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-04-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-04-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-04-2013, 06:32 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-04-2013, 07:40 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-04-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-04-2013, 09:11 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-04-2013, 08:10 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-05-2013, 03:39 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-05-2013, 05:52 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-05-2013, 06:40 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-06-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-06-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-06-2013, 09:35 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-08-2013, 03:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-08-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by LochnarITB - 10-08-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-08-2013, 07:37 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by LochnarITB - 10-08-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-09-2013, 01:33 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Hammerskjold - 10-09-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-08-2013, 11:51 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-09-2013, 01:22 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Taem - 10-09-2013, 01:47 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-09-2013, 06:41 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-09-2013, 07:12 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-09-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-09-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-09-2013, 11:43 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-09-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-10-2013, 03:28 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-10-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-10-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-10-2013, 07:25 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-10-2013, 09:29 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-10-2013, 11:45 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-11-2013, 01:44 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-11-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-11-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-12-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-12-2013, 01:59 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-12-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-14-2013, 06:04 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-15-2013, 04:54 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-15-2013, 12:57 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-17-2013, 03:46 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Hammerskjold - 10-11-2013, 03:39 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-11-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-05-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-05-2013, 04:20 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-06-2013, 01:29 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-07-2013, 01:16 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-07-2013, 04:39 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-07-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by LochnarITB - 10-07-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by eppie - 10-07-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-07-2013, 06:36 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-07-2013, 10:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-07-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-08-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-08-2013, 12:31 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-08-2013, 01:17 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-08-2013, 01:47 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-09-2013, 02:44 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-09-2013, 11:56 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-10-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-11-2013, 03:05 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-11-2013, 03:19 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-11-2013, 05:30 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-11-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-11-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-11-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-11-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-11-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-11-2013, 10:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-12-2013, 12:36 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-12-2013, 03:37 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by shoju - 10-11-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-11-2013, 04:26 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-12-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-12-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-12-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-12-2013, 11:00 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-14-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-15-2013, 05:00 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-17-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-17-2013, 10:04 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-18-2013, 12:15 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-19-2013, 11:44 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-20-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-20-2013, 04:08 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-21-2013, 04:18 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-21-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-21-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-23-2013, 07:28 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-23-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by kandrathe - 10-24-2013, 12:13 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by DeeBye - 10-18-2013, 03:43 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Nystul - 10-19-2013, 09:13 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Archon_Wing - 10-18-2013, 05:18 PM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by FireIceTalon - 10-19-2013, 05:38 AM
RE: U.S. Government shuts down. - by Jester - 10-27-2013, 11:36 AM

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