05-28-2015, 02:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2015, 01:49 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Do you actually believe everything there you just typed? Can you honestly say with a straight face that WOMEN make the beauty industry what it is, without playing yourself? So you don't think that men created a prototype conception of what a "beautiful" woman is or should be in our society and the beauty industry doesn't make billions off the insecurities of women because of that perpetuated stereotype and image? If so, you are truly delusional and are looking at how markets function through rose-colored glasses. Saying women's greed made the market is about as logical as saying that some supernatural being up in the sky makes earthquakes and hurricanes to make us pay for our "sins" 
Greed didn't create market based systems - it is a social phenomena that is presupposed by the very existence of markets to begin with. You are looking at it backwards, so saying "history speaks otherwise" means little when you yourself, are looking at the historical development of markets through an idealist lens and not a materialist one. The whole idea that political economy is somehow derived from our DNA is laughable at best, completely preposterous and unscientific at worst.
You say humans have a need for greed, where has this been scientifically proven? How do we "need" greed, considering our species survived some 100k years without even knowing the very concept? Greed is social and ideological (not biological), and is a result of how people relate to commodities. It has zero to do with our DNA. I read something once that the average person sees about 300+ advertisements per day, every day. If this is so, it is no wonder we are greedy, since we have companies of all kinds shoving advertisements down our throat at every turn trying to get us to buy more crap that we probably do not need. You say greed is in our DNA, I say PROVE IT (I think you will be very hard pressed to do this legitimately). Cause as far as I can tell, it is a social construct. Your whole appeal to the human nature argument to apologize for capitalism has long been debunked - human nature is, again, a social and dynamic construct, a reflection of human thought based on their material environment, circumstances, and social relations - not an intrinsic or immutable human characterization.
As for charities, they are pretty meaningless since they exist as a result of capitalisms social inequalities. If we didn't have production for profit and instead had production for human need, there would be no need for charities or welfare states to begin with.
Capitalists who donate to charity. So now an appeal to 'Great Man' theories of history? Too bad they only do it for the tax write offs and/or to look benevolent in the public eye. This is the type of crap that explains why we have such an odd culture of celebrity worshipping and why poor people are so fascinated with rich people, when they should fucking despise them. This isn't to say that capitalists are motivated to act in naturally anti-human or evil ways for the sake of itself, but they do so because it is due to their particular social relationship in the capitalist system. Capitalism is not the material expression of our human nature - it is the ALIENATION of it, and this goes for both capitalists and the working classes. How is being competitive integral to our species? If anything, it is detrimental to it and should be discouraged in almost all aspects. I don't have a problem with friendly competition in games. But games and the social/economic organization of our species are two very different things. Thankfully greed and competition are NOT inherent to some sort of binding human nature that we cannot intrinsically change, or we would have gone extinct long ago.
Next, quoting biblical idealism does not validate or strengthen your points, in fact, it weakens them. Since when did the Bible have ANY scientific validity or data in understanding the workings of the world, or human biology? Last I checked, never. You cannot refute material reality with sloganeering and buzz words, especially not from a source as quacky and fiction-driven as the friggin Bible. Seriously, as misled as you may be, I think in general you are a smart cat, and I would expect better of you Taem, then to use an argument like this to justify your point.
In general, I think most of your post really does more to strengthen my analysis of how influential bourgeois ideology is, than it does to refute it. I can't be mad at you though, since you have been spoon fed this crap for x amount of years now, and to shake free of it is extremely difficult since the ruling elite ideologically dominates all of societies institutions. I've always maintained, even in my discussions with other Marxists, that the bourgeois' ideological control is actually much stronger than their political and economic control is, it sort of has to be. Nevertheless, ideology and behavior is indeed learned, and has practically zilch to do with our DNA. I suppose racism is in our DNA also, according to your logic? No man, that shit is fucking LEARNED, pure and simple. Yes, there are some things about us that can be attributed to biology - such as our need to eat, drink clean water, have shelter. We need these things in order to physically survive. Greed, however, is not something we "need" (nor is it necessarily something we should desire), nor is it biological - it something you LEARN just like virtually every other idea is.
Lastly, yes I think every person is ENTITLED to have shelter, one of the basic necessities of survival. This is a basic human right, which gets violated everyday because of capitalism. Capitalism by its very nature is a gross violation of MANY human rights. If the charge then is me being part of the "entitlement generation", then fuck, I STAND GUILTY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY....I MAKE NO APOLOGIES ABOUT IT. In fact, I wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, I am one of those entitled lazy socialists that deplores the fact he is forced to work or starve, especially when the ruling class does squat yet has access to all the privileges in the world.
On a side note, I will leave you with this: I don't say all this stuff for the sake of being right and trying to look superior, because believe me, I wish I was wrong about all of it; I really do. But sadly I'm not. The world, as it is now, just sucks. Becoming a Marxist was like a gift and a curse for me, a gift because it gave me a way to make sense of the world like I had never been able to prior, a scientific way. It allowed me to break off the ideological shackles and cut the bourgeois Gordian Knot, so to say. It also gave me hope, in the sense that there is an possible way out of this mess. On the other hand, its also made me very cynical in my views toward the world, and I think I even suffer from mild cases of depression and anxiety because I KNOW ALL TOO WELL how the world is and works. Sometimes I wish I would have never seen the truth, but alas the cat is out of the bag, and it is what it is.
Greed didn't create market based systems - it is a social phenomena that is presupposed by the very existence of markets to begin with. You are looking at it backwards, so saying "history speaks otherwise" means little when you yourself, are looking at the historical development of markets through an idealist lens and not a materialist one. The whole idea that political economy is somehow derived from our DNA is laughable at best, completely preposterous and unscientific at worst.You say humans have a need for greed, where has this been scientifically proven? How do we "need" greed, considering our species survived some 100k years without even knowing the very concept? Greed is social and ideological (not biological), and is a result of how people relate to commodities. It has zero to do with our DNA. I read something once that the average person sees about 300+ advertisements per day, every day. If this is so, it is no wonder we are greedy, since we have companies of all kinds shoving advertisements down our throat at every turn trying to get us to buy more crap that we probably do not need. You say greed is in our DNA, I say PROVE IT (I think you will be very hard pressed to do this legitimately). Cause as far as I can tell, it is a social construct. Your whole appeal to the human nature argument to apologize for capitalism has long been debunked - human nature is, again, a social and dynamic construct, a reflection of human thought based on their material environment, circumstances, and social relations - not an intrinsic or immutable human characterization.
As for charities, they are pretty meaningless since they exist as a result of capitalisms social inequalities. If we didn't have production for profit and instead had production for human need, there would be no need for charities or welfare states to begin with.
Capitalists who donate to charity. So now an appeal to 'Great Man' theories of history? Too bad they only do it for the tax write offs and/or to look benevolent in the public eye. This is the type of crap that explains why we have such an odd culture of celebrity worshipping and why poor people are so fascinated with rich people, when they should fucking despise them. This isn't to say that capitalists are motivated to act in naturally anti-human or evil ways for the sake of itself, but they do so because it is due to their particular social relationship in the capitalist system. Capitalism is not the material expression of our human nature - it is the ALIENATION of it, and this goes for both capitalists and the working classes. How is being competitive integral to our species? If anything, it is detrimental to it and should be discouraged in almost all aspects. I don't have a problem with friendly competition in games. But games and the social/economic organization of our species are two very different things. Thankfully greed and competition are NOT inherent to some sort of binding human nature that we cannot intrinsically change, or we would have gone extinct long ago.
Next, quoting biblical idealism does not validate or strengthen your points, in fact, it weakens them. Since when did the Bible have ANY scientific validity or data in understanding the workings of the world, or human biology? Last I checked, never. You cannot refute material reality with sloganeering and buzz words, especially not from a source as quacky and fiction-driven as the friggin Bible. Seriously, as misled as you may be, I think in general you are a smart cat, and I would expect better of you Taem, then to use an argument like this to justify your point.
In general, I think most of your post really does more to strengthen my analysis of how influential bourgeois ideology is, than it does to refute it. I can't be mad at you though, since you have been spoon fed this crap for x amount of years now, and to shake free of it is extremely difficult since the ruling elite ideologically dominates all of societies institutions. I've always maintained, even in my discussions with other Marxists, that the bourgeois' ideological control is actually much stronger than their political and economic control is, it sort of has to be. Nevertheless, ideology and behavior is indeed learned, and has practically zilch to do with our DNA. I suppose racism is in our DNA also, according to your logic? No man, that shit is fucking LEARNED, pure and simple. Yes, there are some things about us that can be attributed to biology - such as our need to eat, drink clean water, have shelter. We need these things in order to physically survive. Greed, however, is not something we "need" (nor is it necessarily something we should desire), nor is it biological - it something you LEARN just like virtually every other idea is.
Lastly, yes I think every person is ENTITLED to have shelter, one of the basic necessities of survival. This is a basic human right, which gets violated everyday because of capitalism. Capitalism by its very nature is a gross violation of MANY human rights. If the charge then is me being part of the "entitlement generation", then fuck, I STAND GUILTY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY....I MAKE NO APOLOGIES ABOUT IT. In fact, I wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, I am one of those entitled lazy socialists that deplores the fact he is forced to work or starve, especially when the ruling class does squat yet has access to all the privileges in the world.
On a side note, I will leave you with this: I don't say all this stuff for the sake of being right and trying to look superior, because believe me, I wish I was wrong about all of it; I really do. But sadly I'm not. The world, as it is now, just sucks. Becoming a Marxist was like a gift and a curse for me, a gift because it gave me a way to make sense of the world like I had never been able to prior, a scientific way. It allowed me to break off the ideological shackles and cut the bourgeois Gordian Knot, so to say. It also gave me hope, in the sense that there is an possible way out of this mess. On the other hand, its also made me very cynical in my views toward the world, and I think I even suffer from mild cases of depression and anxiety because I KNOW ALL TOO WELL how the world is and works. Sometimes I wish I would have never seen the truth, but alas the cat is out of the bag, and it is what it is.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)