Danes feel Obama is greater than Jesus

[kandrathe]

I'm not quite sure what to distill from this. On one hand, you seem to be arguing for a kind of social majoritarianism, with religious agreement at its base, but on the other, you are acknowledging the importance of liberty, protecting individuals from exactly that "social cohesion." Just because a solution to a social problem could be found by just legislating peoples' religious prejudices, doesn't mean it should be. Indeed, the most admirable part of the US Constitution, to my mind, is in rejecting exactly that method.

I'm not arguing for pure social "democracy", however, in some regards (when justice fails) that is what we have. I agree that the protection of the rights of minorities is an important part (a desirable part) of the US Constitution. However, I think the US government has gone too far sometimes in giving preference to the previously disadvantaged. Justice demands reparation to the individuals harmed (not classes), and the achievement of equal opportunity. Injustice is using the power of government to continuously make everyone equal (socialism). Individuals (and corporations) should be free to experience the full fruits of their success or suffer the trials of their failures.

I can't say I find it even slightly true that Christianity makes for coherent, peaceful societies. The evidence just doesn't stack up. Religious countries are not less violent than non-religious ones. Non-religious people are not less generous - there are atheists in soup kitchens just the same as everyone else. Wars between Christian nations, even ones that share a denomination, are legion throughout history. Bitter civil conflicts over religious interpretation have torn whole societies apart. To give just one example, Ireland has had its share of treating each other like "brothers" - when the whole society descended into decades of fratricide.

Again, I would first question whether the people were practicing their espoused religion, or whether the conflict were about some territorial disagreement, a claim for self rule, or some other common dispute. There is no such thing as a Christian nation, unless they are a theocracy. Even under the monarchies of Europe, the practice of Christianity by monarchs was highly in question.

Meanwhile, the collapse of religious belief has not led to any particularly negative consequences - those societies who believe least are among the most equal, prosperous, peaceful and coherent societies in the world. If religion is the best solution, then why aren't Japan, Sweden, or Uruguay descending into a morass of amorality? Why are super-religious Nigeria or Brazil very violent countries, when they should be able to lean on religion to help out? I know my answer - it doesn't work. Social coherence comes from elsewhere.

I would disagree, of course. It is only reasonable to expect moral decay in the wake of any organized social structure upholding societal mores. Which is one reason that our prisons are overflowing.

Any religion composed of two billion people is going to be complicated, and you're right, it's not fair to simply look at the negative side of it, when there are also positives. But you equally can't throw the negatives overboard by simply defining them out of the argument. If Christians (as a whole, not necessarily individually) fail to live up to their supposed obligations, time and time again, then how reasonable is it to make the argument that Christianity is this wonderful creed that causes peace, goodwill and social cohesion? That's just an idealized fantasy, from where I sit.

It is human nature to fail to aspire to our full potential, however, I uphold those social organizations that attempt to bring out the best of human nature and attempt to mold us into people of good character. Rather than idealism, I would probably use the term optimism. I think one problem that Christianity has is that it is taught by morons like Pat Robertson. Your and my objection to ancient to modern Catholicism is its dumbing it down and spoon feeding the pablum of dogma to the masses, while exacting perfect obedience. Atheism also has its embarrassments. But, I'll end with; "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edit: adding this link to the moral regeneration movement in South Africa began by Nelson Mandela -- http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/CrimeQ/No.11/Rauch.htm
and this link of EU violent crime rates -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...Africa-U-S.html
and <blockquote>"Results from a series of multilevel analyses indicate that church attendance (the frequency of attending religious services) has significant inverse effects on nondrug illegal activities, drug use, and drug selling among disadvantaged youths. Religious salience (the perceived importance of religion in one's life), however, is not significantly linked to reductions in juvenile delinquency. We discuss the implications of our findings, focusing on individual religiosity as a potentially important protective factor for disadvantaged youths. "-- http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~d...tent=a718869822</blockquote> and <blockquote>"Our research attempts to resolve these issues by testing the religion-crime relationship in models with a comprehensive crime measure and three separate dimensions of religiosity. We also control for secular constraints, religious networks, and social ecology. We found that, among our religiosity measures, participation in religious activities was a persistent and noncontingent inhibiter of adult crime." --RELIGION AND CRIME REEXAMINED: THE IMPACT OF RELIGION, SECULAR CONTROLS, AND SOCIAL ECOLOGY ON ADULT CRIMINALITY</blockquote>Also, I should point out, I'm not only speaking of "religion", but of any social construct that one religiously adheres to which diverts "idle hands" towards constructive social contributions. So, yes, atheists can do this too. The quality here is not what you claim to be, but what do you actually do. Jails are filled with people who will claim to be Christian, but do not attend church or know the basic tenets of the faith. An entirely secular positive youth group, like say 4H might keep kids out of trouble as well. But, somewhere, the child needs to be imprinted with societal norms and mores.