Danes feel Obama is greater than Jesus

[kandrathe]

Afterthought: Ran that particular google search. Surely there must be a better way to dredge up good opinions than looking through that dreck?

That dreck is the problem. Like I said earlier; 1) fatwa -- any living historian or scholar who makes the solid case that Islam is based upon a sham would be immediate terrorist bait. Sign me up for that! 2) political correctness -- our historians and scholars are twisted up like the Gordian knot trying to not offend anyone with their opinions. 3) bias - Any person who is identified with Islam, Christianity, Judaism would be automatically disqualified even if they clearly footnote every claim. So you get dreck, and maybe a few sources. Which is why in my studies, I return to the most reliable translations of the oldest historical non-embellished accounts of any middle eastern writings.

Another note regarding translations of the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. The people doing the translation may have a motive in choosing the words of their translation. For example, I believe the accepted Hebrew translation of the Torah makes the old testament God, much more violent than is probably the correct translation. Why would Jews or Christians want this translation? Because it justifies their violence. If you make adjustments selecting some of the proper words, the entire translation shows a people who ignore their Gods advice for temperance, and suffer because of their violent choices. You'd need to know Hebrew to see what I mean, but in the theological field it is called Hermeneutics, Exegesis, and Isogesis.

So again, you can't even trust the translations and need to find reliable sources for proper interpretation of even those verses that you or I quoted. We can toss violent passages from the Torah, or Koran about, but I don't really trust the motivations of the translators enough to stand behind yours or my claims. I have a good friend (not Islamic) who is fluent in Arabic, and she points out that many English translations of the Koran have intentionally softened the language (especially those regarding the treatment of women). This was probably done to encourage Western people to embrace Islam, whereas if they read the accurate translation they would be put off.

So, why have I not tossed a bunch of sources and justifications? Well, from where I sit it seems entirely fruitless for us to have a discussion, debate, argument standing on such infirm ground.

Edit: Ok, found some references to books -- recommended by ex-Muslim friend of mine (she is very critical of Islam now that she is Westernized);
Why I am not a Muslim by Ibn Warraq
Understanding Muhammad: A psychobiography by Ali Sina
The Truth about Muhammad by Robert Spencer <-- probably the most one sided, yet he's truthful on that one side.