Pay to Win

[Taem]

An interesting topic was brought up an the MXL forums, but I think this discussion has some substance and I'd like to see what other's opinions are of it, at least in another (more mature) venue.

NOTE: I'm going to use a lot of acronyms in this post. F2P = free to play, which means the game is free to download and play (usually an MMO). P2W = pay to win, which means items that can advance your toon are sold for real world cash.

Post I Replied To:

That's all fine and dandy, but will PoE be successful enough to financially continue? How many people are playing the game, and more importantly, spending money on it? I've never seen a game where so many people I know have spent that much time on it, yet so little money.

Don't get me wrong, I love PoE. It's a mature, complex, and rewarding game. I play a lot, whether it be races, hardcore, or softcore. But already the population seems to have shrunk many times over, and the people I do have contact with aren't spending money on the game (I usually give the devs $20 a month, but I don't even want to buy anything from their micro-transaction shop).

My Post:

They must have some serious financial backers. We'll see what GGG does when funds start withering up and it's time to deliver something the people actually want/need. I made this same argument with donations on these forums and I think it's a valid one. People don't want P2W, but at the end of the day, there's only so much you'd be willing to pay for as a player without seeing any benefit to your character or in-game experience. I think developers vastly under-estimate this quandary and assume their most ravenous followers will purchase new skins and sound effects, but trust me, that won't pay the bills at the end of the day!

What I think would be most successful would be a system where you can purchase in game "gold" to spend on items as you see fit, and are able to trade with other players. So long as you can't take that "gold" out of the system, then the feds won't come crashing your party for fear of tax evasion and money laundering. Also to compliment this, an out of game, on-line trading system (like the old d2jsp had) where you could make micro-transactions to buy other player's items, but there would be a small "fee" involved - maybe a couple pennies per transaction. This would be the perfect system for making sure it's the players finding items and adding them to the system, not the game developers creating items out of thin air and selling it - this would keep the current value of items intact (rng baby) and generate revenue for everyone involved. Stupid developers who don't take advantage of this type of system.

In regards specifically to f2p, what am I inferring? I'm saying f2p is destined to failure without selling p2w items. When I hear Frag bash NWN MMO over p2w items, I question what he, amoungst others, really expects from a free game? Where could these games generate revenue? Ad's will only bring in so much, and financial backers will wither up and die out if they don't see a return on their investment soon. So without people spending tons of money to support the game they love, f2p games are destined to ruin unless they offer something players REALLY want, which is p2w items of course... It's inevitable, and if you don't like the p2w system, then don't support f2p games, because they are symbiotic no matter how you try and argue otherwise.

I do think the alternative I came up with in my quoted post would work for everyone involved however! That, combined with ad's and selling non-p2w skins and what-not (like PoE is doing) would not unbalance they system and bring in a steady flow of income for all! This is the only way I see for a f2p game to remain profitable and relevant in this day and age.

[ShadowHM]

I first encountered P2W in the revival of Hellgate:London. At first I was able to ignore it, other than expressing amusement at the pimp'n'hooker style clothes that conferred such useful attributes.

Frankly, I would have been perfectly happy to keep playing along with found items or items purchased with in-game money in the in-game shops. The presence of other players using those items didn't affect my game play, as I only encountered them in the staging areas (subway stations, etc.) But it irked the bejezus out of me to find that I actually needed those P2W items to prevail against the final bosses. So I quit playing. I doubt that it mattered to the developers/game owners that I quit. They were not making any new money from me by then.

My point is that there might be a powerful incentive for developers/game owners to go to such a system. Hellgate: London did have several ways to spend real money for in-game perks as you described above. You could spend real money on resurrections and on other ways to purchase things that were listed in the in-game trading posts. But then they went a step further....

[shoju]

Personally, I think that GGG has found a winning combination on the F2P model without going P2W. It's very easy to spend cash on POE, and for someone like myself, and I'm sure Frag is probably included with this, we are more inclined to spend money, and keep spending money on PoE because what I'm paying for is not P2W. If POE goes P2W, I'm out, like my former self in dodgeball. I don't mind buying cool looking skill animations, or pets, or gear glows, and I don't mind paying for more space. And that's the key. It's really easy to buy more space. If you get into saving items for the recipes, it's REALLY easy to run out of vault / stash space.

A lot of people are talking the Demise of POE. POE has a few things going for it, that I don't think people are counting on.

1.) They have a very small team of people. This isn't Blizzard we are talking about.
2.) they have embraced some of the mediums that they need to make sure that people are playing.
3.) People have been using web statistics to count the number of players in game. If there is one thing that I have learned from Blizzard, it's that the majority of the playerbase does not visit the site. They aren't active in the forums. They are quiet. Web Stats is a terrible way to even begin to quantify the playerbase.

Don't be surprised if more games start to follow the ideology of the F2P without P2W, and using the RMT system for things that will get the playerbase's attention, without degrading the quality of gameplay.

[eppie]

I do think the alternative I came up with in my quoted post would work for everyone involved however! That, combined with ad's and selling non-p2w skins and what-not (like PoE is doing) would not unbalance they system and bring in a steady flow of income for all! This is the only way I see for a f2p game to remain profitable and relevant in this day and age.

Of course the people who decide to pay for extra's will only do that because there are lots of others who don't. Both concerning the fancy looking things in PoE as things that are important for winning the game.

If everyone's armour was glowing it wouldn't be cool anymore.....it is cool because most people don't have this.

I personally don't pay for extra's.....I play to little and also care too little for these things.
(with PoE at the moment I care about crashing everytime I get close to Piety).

Another example is Simpsons tapped out, a tablet app I play daily. I don't know of course but I think there are lots of people buying the donuts with which you can buy the special things in the game. Again, I don't because finally it doesn't matter too much which buildings you have.....you always want more. But I think (I am a non-expert of course) that game is much simpler (and cheaper to make) than PoE. I think these guys (EA) are making a lot of money.

[LennyLen]

It's very easy to spend cash on POE, and for someone like myself, and I'm sure Frag is probably included with this, we are more inclined to spend money, and keep spending money on PoE because what I'm paying for is not P2W.

I'm in the same boat (or I was until it dumped us all on the beach of Wraeclast). I've spent over $200 on PoE and I think the most I've ever spent on any game prior to that was $40 for Diablo 1.

I probably wouldn't stop playing if they went P2W as I play solo anyway, but I would stop buying stuff.

[kandrathe]

I would concur with the above. I haven't bought any swag in POE with real world money, but I'm not opposed to it if I were "in love" with my characters. It would probably help their cause if they added more FREE personalization options to give players a taste of character customization. It would also help if they added some abilities to better customize your characters story, as opposed to the other million players.

But, if people get advantages by paying, then I'd be turned off.

[LennyLen]

I haven't bought any swag in POE with real world money, but I'm not opposed to it if I were "in love" with my characters.

Most of the money I spent was done before the character wipe, and before there was anything to actually spend the money on. I think I can pretty fairly speak for most other CB supporters when I say that we spent money because we wanted to see the game succeed, and not just to get bling.

[Taem]

Of the comments so far, nothing has been unexpected. I feel that everyone here is speaking from the heart and most people here have similar ideologies, however I'm not to familiar with any f2p mmo's on PoE's scale that have lasted to long without the additional revenue stream of selling items. I'm not advocating this [selling items to players], merely hypothesizing of the future longetivity of f2p mmo's in this day and age. What average players fail to recognize are the costs of servers + game creators paychecks in regardes to longetivity, or what I mean by this is all video games hit their peak on release, then gradually experience the inevitable drop off of interest. So how does a game company that is f2p remain relevant for the long-haul? Most of these f2p games will only be around for a few years then burn up when funds wither once overall interest dies out (and it will). To keep interest going longer, you need to constantly deliver new content and have stable servers; can you have both when money is not rolling in? I don't know, but my guy tells me no. What makes a game like wow stick around so long? The money they get from subscriptions allows them the ability to constantly churn out new content/patches and upkeep quality servers. How can a f2p game remain relevant for the long-haul? I only see two ways... p2w items, or the gold/trade system I mentioned.

PS, don't bash me for spelling errors please. I'm on my work computer without spell-check and typing this fast so I can get back to work.

[shoju]

Well, I mean.... I "guess" there was "technically" pay to win in PoE.

You could drop a thousand bucks, be a diamond Closed BEta Supporter, and get to design a Unique with the Dev team. You didn't get it, you just got to design it. It was your unique in the game. And we've seen that some of those have ended up very powerful.

[kandrathe]

Most of the money I spent was done before the character wipe, and before there was anything to actually spend the money on. I think I can pretty fairly speak for most other CB supporters when I say that we spent money because we wanted to see the game succeed, and not just to get bling.

I would do that if I had some spare money.

[LochnarITB]

I have no problem with P2W, with the caveat that Shadow posted. Boss and encounter design must NOT require purchased items to prevail. I would even say that P2W is good for the entire player base. There are many people who are just simply impatient and their quick infusion of real dollars for the game keeps the servers rolling for all and gets them through the content that might otherwise take some grinding. There are also players out there that are not as elite as those of us at Lurkers and an injection of grrrrr can keep them in the game and the developers putting bread on the table. P2W? Yes, please, if it keeps the game going for those of us who have far more time than discretionary funds.

[Lissa]

P2W is not the way forward for a lot of games, PfC (Pay for Convience) however is. A number of games right now are going this route, PGI (Pirahnna Games) and Sony are going this route with MWO and Planetside 2 where your money typically goes to more quickly accumulate money and experience to improve your character as well as giving you more options for characters (more character slots). This is the way a lot of games are headed and it makes a lot of sence.

[LochnarITB]

P2W is not the way forward for a lot of games, PfC (Pay for Convience) however is. A number of games right now are going this route, PGI (Pirahnna Games) and Sony are going this route with MWO and Planetside 2 where your money typically goes to more quickly accumulate money and experience to improve your character as well as giving you more options for characters (more character slots). This is the way a lot of games are headed and it makes a lot of sence.

With stash upgrades and character slots, there is an element of that in PoE. In fact, that is what is most likely to draw $ off my credit card. Their main focus, to this point, has been cosmetics though.

sence

Intended meld of "sense" and "cents" (or "pence" for the other side of the pond)?

[kandrathe]

Intended meld of "sense" and "cents" (or "pence" for the other side of the pond)?

For me it has more to do with senescence.

[Lissa]

P2W is not the way forward for a lot of games,
sence

Intended meld of "sense" and "cents" (or "pence" for the other side of the pond)?

Spelling Communist... >.>

[Sir_Die_alot]

Guild Wars 2 also uses the buying unique skins, pets, bank/bag space, ect. model instead of pay to win, and it seems to be doing fine.

[Taem]

I wasn't aware. I thought you had to buy the game for gw2.

[Sir_Die_alot]

You have to buy the game, but there is no monthly fee. I suppose their model is probably the purchase price helps development to break even, and the gem store keeps their servers running and content updates coming.

[MonTy]

Post I Replied To:

That's all fine and dandy, but will PoE be successful enough to financially continue? How many people are playing the game, and more importantly, spending money on it? I've never seen a game where so many people I know have spent that much time on it, yet so little money.

Don't get me wrong, I love PoE. It's a mature, complex, and rewarding game. I play a lot, whether it be races, hardcore, or softcore. But already the population seems to have shrunk many times over, and the people I do have contact with aren't spending money on the game (I usually give the devs $20 a month, but I don't even want to buy anything from their micro-transaction shop).

Lol, that was my post you replied to and quoted here. When the forums changed someone took Monty so I had to use another name. I do not play MXL anymore but I still lurk the forums. I see Sigma has been halted and they're starting from scratch? Anyway...

As much as I love POE I try to take a step back and see what others are doing. I asked a vast majority of people on my friends list what they've spent on the game, and considering how much I've seen them play it was pittance. I've listened to several interviews with the developers of GGG and they did say they had some serious financial backers and they've done well so far, but they've also expressed interest of supporting the game for ten years, and at the current model I do not see that working.

Even though GGG said they would not charge for upcoming content, I think it would be a smart move. People are itching for more acts, and why not charge for it? They already have three free acts. Chris Wilson has said if he could go back and launch PoE again, he would probably charge for the base game. The more I think of it the more it makes sense. I mean if you know about ARPGs and how they work, and hear generally good things about PoE, I think most people would pick up the game for 10-20 US dollars. If you have no idea how ARPGS work and you install this free to play game, I can't see that many people taking interest in it. It has a brutal learning curve and not everything is explained too well.

I think your idea of "gold" is smart and would be very profitable for the company, but personally I'd rather not have it in game. But I understand where you're getting at, and I think to sustain a free to play game of this scale, something along that feature would work.