Devastate on PTR 2.3

[Concillian]

Initial PTR build had devastate essentially unchanged, but also applying the sunder armor debuff.

Current PTR build has devastate doing that + sunder armor threat + ~20 threat per sunder stacked.


Reference: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-arti...te-testing.html


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Looking at typical tanking rotation skill usage:
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Shield slam is 307 innate threat + damage
say 300 block value, so around (430 + 300)* 0.7 = 511 damage and around 815 threat per use

Devastate is doing around 101+301+20 * #sunders+ damage threat
at a 5 stack this is about 502 + damage
Typical damage with a 5 stack and KD and tanking gear is on the order of 200ish or so
Total threat is somewhere on the order of low 700s per application when 5 stacked

Revenge
is on the order of 200 innate threat plus 350 damage = 550 threat

Devastate > revenge now in most cases (where rage isn't a major issue)

Shield slam is still better than devastate when the cooldown is up, but not MUCH better.

The change in 'ideal' rotation moves STR up in the world if gearing for a threat sensitive situation, due to 3 devastates every 6 seconds instead of 2. Near as I can tell, STR should offer approximately 15% more threat gain per point than shield block value (assuming 5/5 1H spec + 5/5 vitality + 3/3 shield mastery), though it offers little in terms of defensive benefit.

quick math on this is that 1 STR = 1.10 STR (Vitality)
white damage gain is 2.2 / 14 = 0.157 * 1.1 (1H spec) = 0.172 DPS
devastate gain is 2.2 * 2.4 / (14 *2) = 0.188 * 1.1 (1H spec) = 0.207 * 3 devastates in a cycle = 0.621
total = 0.172 * 6 + 0.621 = 1.653

1 SBV = 1 damage * 1.3 (shield mastery) * 1.1 (1H spec) = 1.43

Neither includes armor or crit or dodge/parry/miss, but these should affect both numbers in exactly the same way (on average)

So while before STR was about equal on threat gen to Shield block value, the fact that devastate is now better than revenge in a typical rotation moves STR > shield block value on pure threat gen... BUT STR offers only a negligible defensive bonus, while shield block value offers a defensive bonus (though not huge).

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How much will typical TPS improve?
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Innate threat doesn't count defensive / defiance I'll adjust that at the end

Current is ~800 + 550 + 320 + 320 = 1990 threat for 17 + 2 + 12 + 12 = 43 rage
New is ~ 800 + 700 + 700 + 700 = 2900 threat for 17 + 3*9 = 44 rage

~ 900-1000 threat per 6 seconds * 1.45 (defensive stance and defiance) = ~1375 threat gain per 6 seconds ... ~230 TPS improvement at a cost of 1 rage per 6 seconds.


No guarantee current PTR version is the one that goes live, though I'll try to keep this discussion current.

[WimpySmurf]

quick math on this is that 1 STR = 1.10 STR (Vitality)
white damage gain is 2.2 / 14 = 0.157 * 1.1 (1H spec) = 0.172 DPS
devastate gain is 2.2 * 2.4 / (14 *2) = 0.188 * 1.1 (1H spec) = 0.207 * 3 devastates in a cycle = 0.621
total = 0.172 * 6 + 0.621 = 1.653

1 SBV = 1 damage * 1.3 (shield mastery) * 1.1 (1H spec) = 1.43

Wouldn't it be valid to also "assume" that the tank would have Blessing of Kings? I guess if you're doing a 10man you might not have a Paladin, but in 25man's you're pretty much guaranteed to have > 1 Paladin.

Adjusting your math to also include BoK then you're looking at

1 STR: 1.83
1 SBV: 1.43


-WimpySmurf

[Taelas]

Defensive Stance and Defiance are multiplicative, not additive. The modifier is 1.495.

[Mavfin]

Defensive Stance and Defiance are multiplicative, not additive. The modifier is 1.495.

Not to mention, the expertise on defiance is nice for tanks, as far as threat adders.

[Concillian]

Satrina did new testing for the new PTR build and Devastate has changed again:

Summary
1) The innate threat for Devastate has been increased per Sunder that is on the mob: 119/134/148/162/176 (These numbers should be pretty close - the mage was using unarmed hits for 1-4 at the end to draw aggro. Still could bear some independent testing for verification)

2) While Devastate is applying Sunders (i.e. the first 5 Devastates that land), you gain the 301 threat for the Sunder in addition to the Devastate innate threat. Note that the Sunder is a separate effect; its threat is not part of the Devastate innate threat.

3) Once 5 Sunders are stacked, Devastate will refresh the Sunder stack but does not apply a new Sunder, and as such does not gain the threat for a Sunder. Devastate threat at 5 Sunders is 176 + (1/2 damage + 175) [the damage portion is subject to mitigation].

4) You get the Sunder threat as normal in Battle and Berserk stance if you apply one of the first five Sunders. Once 5 Sunders are on, you will only get 176 + (1/2 damage + 175) [the damage portion is subject to mitigation], multiplied by stance modifier/Salvation/etc.

5) We also see that there is no difference in innate threat between 4 Sunders + Devastate and 5 Sunders + Devastate. That tells us that the innate threat applied counts the Sunder for the Devastate being performed. That is, we get:
- 119 innate for Devastate with no sunders
- 134 innate for Devastate with one Sunder in place
- 148 innate for Devastate with two Sunders in place
- 162 innate for Devastate with three Sunders in place
- 176 innate for Devastate with four Sunders in place
- 176 innate thereafter

I like this. We get a nice extra kick of threat in the first 8-10 global cooldowns of a fight. Once the Sunders are stacked, Revenge and Shield Slam are still integral parts of the tanking rotation, but we still gain an extra 75 threat per Devastate over what we have now. No penalty for using Devastate to DPS after the 5 Sunders are up. Good changes, in my opinion.

Edit: Plus the fact that Devastate is 9 rage with Improved Sunder + Focused Rage now. Whee.

[Kevin]

Satrina did new testing for the new PTR build and Devastate has changed again:

So devestate now works on the PTR the way I imagined it would as soon as I heard the announcement. Good. That is what I was hoping for and what I thought made the most sense.

[Concillian]

This also means that it's, in practice, impossible to hit for so little damage that sunder is ever better than devastate. You'd need to use a 1 damage weapon and base AP and the mob would need to have over 60% reduction from armor, and I don't think there are any mobs that mitigate that much damage.

[bonemage]

So devestate now works on the PTR the way I imagined it would as soon as I heard the announcement. Good. That is what I was hoping for and what I thought made the most sense.

I like this. A threat buff/sunder replacement to warriors with the talent, but it doesn't dumb down tanking into a one button borefest. It still requires good GCD management to maximize threat. The change is that now you probably want the MT to put the sunder stack up, whereas before, it made sense to have an OT/DPS warrior put the stack up ASAP so the MT could get to Devastate faster. I do believe this to be the most balanced approach. If we make it too good, it dumbs down the job, which I think before it threatened to do. Now it's a significant buff to threat and damage, and allows prot warriors to remove sunder from their bars. It also makes soloing better since you can get a little damage with your early sunders.

[Taelas]

Yeah, the new change is awesome. Definitely a serious buff, but also definitely not overpowered.

[lorecraft]

This devastate change has been great for me! Only because I never hit sunder any more. With more SBV and a decent One Hand weapon I get the threat I need. Sure, heroic strike and revenge are great for supplemental work but I just hammer on devastate and SS forever. It is great!

Thanks Blizzard! Now nerf druids.