Ohio miners forced to attend Romney rally without pay...

[kandrathe]

Do you not prefer tasty apples to not-tasty apples? Because that's what you're saying, economically speaking.

An apple only needs to be tasty enough to be palatable. A frugal (utilitarian) man would sell the tasty ones to Deebye, and buy meager ones for eating.

No dice. Even buying a single unit, costs are a fraction of what they were, at equivalent quality. Hell, in computers, you can't even buy equivalent quality anymore - the cheapest feasible unit is overwhelmingly faster, better, smaller, an improvement in every conceivable way.

Ok, what if I only need the power of a 1990 computer. I still need to pay today's price for a unit that is hundreds times more powerful than the one I need. I don't need to play donkey kong on my phone, I just need to make a phone call. The cell phone doesn't make me talk faster, although there is some added utility in it's mobility where mobility is needed.

Quick experiment:...

I could have used the power of a Cray XMP in 1985, but due to the price -- it was not pragmatic to do so. Yes, that level of power existed but was beyond practical use. If apples cost a years salary each, we wouldn't eat apples.

Nothing would please me more than to deal in the real world of apples. It would demonstrate just how crazy those figures are.

You're telling me that we've experienced 893% inflation in APPLES since the 1990s? No bloody way. BLS says apples (specifically, a pound of Red Delicious apples) have increased by double in that period, 100% inflation in 22 years. Bureau of Agriculture tells me roughly the same thing, for producer prices, only slightly less than doubling.

I made up those numbers for illustrative purposes. I'll trust your 100% inflation (doubling) over the 22 years. The price of food matters within the context of our ability to feed a family. If food increases 100% over 22 years, but wages only increase by 80%, then we've lost ground.

So now, these are real numbers (1990 to 2008) for the average middle class American family (Parents + 2 kids) adjusted for inflation;

• Wages +20%
• Housing costs +56%
• Health Care +155%
• College +60%

... and consider that participation in government Food aid has gone from under 20 million to 37 million over the same period (~doubled). I've charted real income for my metro area, and was surprised to find that median household income has actually dropped about $10,000 over the past few years, while the trends on inflationary goods and services continue rising at a consistent annual rate (e.g. about 6-7% for college costs).

So? The productivity of a person eating apples doesn't change with the price of an apple. Nor does it have to. This is irrelevant.

Ah, it is so hard when we mix metaphors. You don't eat computers, or shovels, or watches. Their value comes from use. Whereas, the value in the apple is in the nutrition and sustenance it provides, and not in the physicality of the thing, such as in throwing. Unless I see some pinko anarcho communist...

Prices express values, and values are subjective. Your car's "utility" (to you) is expressed by what you'd trade it away for on one end, and what you'd trade away to get it back if it disappeared on the other.

Of course. I'm sure it would be more valuable to me if I had to walk (the 45 miles) to and from work even one time (because it would take most of a day to make it one way). But, there is a point when the cost negates the necessity, and it would be more reasonable to change my way of living to accommodate the lack of affordability in transportation. I'd find employment closer, buy a mule, or grow my own apples (for eating).