11-11-2015, 09:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2015, 11:37 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Examples? Examples would be the very existence of every single member of the global capitalist class, and the social relation they share with every single member of the existing working class.
It is INDISPUTABLE fact that capital exploits labor - not because I say so, but because it has already been long observed scientifically before anyone's grandparents from this forum was even a thought. Capital HAS to exploit labor to perpetuate its very existence, that is part of the internal logic of the system. The proof is in the fact that the moment a capitalist stops exploiting labor, she/he will go out of business and be driven out of the market from her/his fellow capitalist competitors because he/she cannot produce the necessary capital to be competitive - is this not true? Workers must be exploited under capitalism, and capitalists by the same token, must exploit. This is the underlying social relation and class antagonism that makes capitalism what it is, and no amount of government interference (or lack of) can change that. Call it a 'economic law' of capitalism if you will.
The state and its agencies, such as the police, exist to protect and enforce the rule of private capital. It is an indirect AND direct way of the capitalist class saying " you WILL produce value for us, or else....". The consequences which range from, at best, being completely ostracized, all the way up to, at worst, imprisonment, starvation or death. You say we are not held at gunpoint and forced to work. If you truly think this, you are more naive than I thought. Try organizing a general strike and see what happens, you and your fellow workers would be held at gunpoint pretty quick - not directly by your employer, since they have a private police force to do that for them w/o any of the risk involved. It happens every day around the world, workers getting held at gunpoint, imprisoned, beatin', sprayed with tear gas or shot because they refuse to work, or because they want more crumbs off the table than their rulers are willing to give them. Unless of course, you live on planet Freedonia or Libertopia.
And of course government actions serve the 1%. You are just now figuring this out? Marxists, and other radical leftists of all stripes have known this for over a century now, and we have been telling you that this is the INEVITABLE result in a capitalist system. And time and again, we are proven correct, because once again, that is part of the internal logic of the system. The police, military, courts and lawmakers don't exist to serve the public, they exist to serve the current ruling class. And no, it hasn't become like this in the last few years or decades, it has been this way from DAY ONE.
Capitalism isn't in crisis, it is working EXACTLY as intended. To say otherwise would imply there is 'good' capitalism or 'bad/crony' capitalism, which isn't the case.
What I don't understand though, is this: Lets pretend for a moment there was only 1000 people left on the planet. If one person tried to horde all the resources to him/herself, the other 999 people would be like fuck that, and take it from his/her ass by force. I think we can agree that this is what would happen in that scenario, and rightfully so. Well, what we have, under capitalism, is the SAME EXACT thing, except instead of an individual hording the money or resources, we have a very small CLASS of people doing it, while everyone else is forced to produce value for them so they can live their privileged life and oppress the rest of us - all while giving us little crumbs off the table and calling the system "democratic" and saying the system provides freedom or whatever other buzzwords are in fashion at the time. Its the same exact thing as in the first example, just on a larger scale.
However, I am long disillusioned with the whole thing, and I see through it all for what it really is - regardless of how much propaganda the system throws at me (and believe me, it is alot). Far as I am concerned, any defense of the current order of things is an untenable position.
There is no choice under capitalism for the worker - you either work, or you starve, get imprisoned, shot, or tear gased. You are forced to sell the only thing you own, your labor power, to those who own private property (but produce no social value), in order to survive or face the above consequences. That is not a choice, that is called violent coercion. On top of that, the worker is not compensated even close to the value he/she produces, the vast majority is pocketed by the capitalist, who didn't do ANYTHING to produce that value but gets to keep the lion share just because they owns means of production, and they are backed by a state and police force to ensure this happens (and who will use nothing short of violence to achieve it). These are the harsh indisputable facts, which I do not need to prove as they can (and have long been) empirically observed - just as I don't need to prove that evolution is real, or that the earth rotates around the sun, as these are things that have been scientifically observed and proven already.
If anything, the onus is on you to prove that capital does NOT exploit labor, but because a negative cannot be proven; and because everything I said CAN be, HAS been, and IS materially observed and/or documented in the real world thus shown to be truth, that puts this question to rest. Capital exploits labor, and does so through violent force. There absolutely is no disputing this fact, as it is long beyond debate.
It is INDISPUTABLE fact that capital exploits labor - not because I say so, but because it has already been long observed scientifically before anyone's grandparents from this forum was even a thought. Capital HAS to exploit labor to perpetuate its very existence, that is part of the internal logic of the system. The proof is in the fact that the moment a capitalist stops exploiting labor, she/he will go out of business and be driven out of the market from her/his fellow capitalist competitors because he/she cannot produce the necessary capital to be competitive - is this not true? Workers must be exploited under capitalism, and capitalists by the same token, must exploit. This is the underlying social relation and class antagonism that makes capitalism what it is, and no amount of government interference (or lack of) can change that. Call it a 'economic law' of capitalism if you will.
The state and its agencies, such as the police, exist to protect and enforce the rule of private capital. It is an indirect AND direct way of the capitalist class saying " you WILL produce value for us, or else....". The consequences which range from, at best, being completely ostracized, all the way up to, at worst, imprisonment, starvation or death. You say we are not held at gunpoint and forced to work. If you truly think this, you are more naive than I thought. Try organizing a general strike and see what happens, you and your fellow workers would be held at gunpoint pretty quick - not directly by your employer, since they have a private police force to do that for them w/o any of the risk involved. It happens every day around the world, workers getting held at gunpoint, imprisoned, beatin', sprayed with tear gas or shot because they refuse to work, or because they want more crumbs off the table than their rulers are willing to give them. Unless of course, you live on planet Freedonia or Libertopia.
And of course government actions serve the 1%. You are just now figuring this out? Marxists, and other radical leftists of all stripes have known this for over a century now, and we have been telling you that this is the INEVITABLE result in a capitalist system. And time and again, we are proven correct, because once again, that is part of the internal logic of the system. The police, military, courts and lawmakers don't exist to serve the public, they exist to serve the current ruling class. And no, it hasn't become like this in the last few years or decades, it has been this way from DAY ONE.
Capitalism isn't in crisis, it is working EXACTLY as intended. To say otherwise would imply there is 'good' capitalism or 'bad/crony' capitalism, which isn't the case.
What I don't understand though, is this: Lets pretend for a moment there was only 1000 people left on the planet. If one person tried to horde all the resources to him/herself, the other 999 people would be like fuck that, and take it from his/her ass by force. I think we can agree that this is what would happen in that scenario, and rightfully so. Well, what we have, under capitalism, is the SAME EXACT thing, except instead of an individual hording the money or resources, we have a very small CLASS of people doing it, while everyone else is forced to produce value for them so they can live their privileged life and oppress the rest of us - all while giving us little crumbs off the table and calling the system "democratic" and saying the system provides freedom or whatever other buzzwords are in fashion at the time. Its the same exact thing as in the first example, just on a larger scale.
However, I am long disillusioned with the whole thing, and I see through it all for what it really is - regardless of how much propaganda the system throws at me (and believe me, it is alot). Far as I am concerned, any defense of the current order of things is an untenable position.
There is no choice under capitalism for the worker - you either work, or you starve, get imprisoned, shot, or tear gased. You are forced to sell the only thing you own, your labor power, to those who own private property (but produce no social value), in order to survive or face the above consequences. That is not a choice, that is called violent coercion. On top of that, the worker is not compensated even close to the value he/she produces, the vast majority is pocketed by the capitalist, who didn't do ANYTHING to produce that value but gets to keep the lion share just because they owns means of production, and they are backed by a state and police force to ensure this happens (and who will use nothing short of violence to achieve it). These are the harsh indisputable facts, which I do not need to prove as they can (and have long been) empirically observed - just as I don't need to prove that evolution is real, or that the earth rotates around the sun, as these are things that have been scientifically observed and proven already.
If anything, the onus is on you to prove that capital does NOT exploit labor, but because a negative cannot be proven; and because everything I said CAN be, HAS been, and IS materially observed and/or documented in the real world thus shown to be truth, that puts this question to rest. Capital exploits labor, and does so through violent force. There absolutely is no disputing this fact, as it is long beyond debate.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)