02-24-2005, 08:18 PM
Hi gang, long time no see! WoW's finally made it across the Atlantic this month and I've decided to join in the mayhem
I see there's been some debate on the boards recently about min-maxing. I prefer min-maxing myself so I'd like criticism that will help me optimise damage output
This is my brief:
I want to play a Rogue
I want to optimise for play in a competent group. I'm hooking up with the Brains guild and I'm assuming that much of my time will be with a solid tank who can hold aggro and a healer who thinks heals > nukes.
I want to optimise for instant damage over damage over time. I'm imagining that I'll be in groups good enough to steamroller a lot of the content so a 30 second dot is a bit of a waste on something that dies in 10 seconds.
I want to optimise for PvE. I'll almost certainly PvP in due course but I'd like to level up fast then respec rather than employ a jack-of-all-trades template just to stay flexible. I don't mean I won't pvp while levelling up, just that I don't want to take power away from the pve side
I like crafting in these games so I anticipate being able to support a costly build to run. If I need to drink a mana potion more often than most that's not a big concern
This is my initial idea for tactics
The big assumption is that there are viable crowd control, damage mitigation and tanking options elsewhere in the party so I can focus on killing speed.
The expectation is that monsters will arrive at the tank with me stealthed a few yards away. I read Roland's comments about Rogue pulling a page back with great interest but I'm expecting not to be the puller in a fast-paced group that will have established its procedures before I catch up with them. I'll let the tank build a bit of hate then:
Cold blood
Ambush
(maybe Feint)
Backstab
Eviscerate
thistle tea
Vanish
Ambush
Feint
Backstab
Eviscerate
and that's about it
I had a long look at Preparation and I felt it was a big chunk of talent points which would cost damage. I also discarded Improved Sap despite reading that it is very highly regarded. This is because I'm joining a little late and I imagine I'll be hooking up with players who are coping perfectly well with the game and don't need crowd control quite so much as the general population at large
Sinister strike is an option for fights where I can't get the position for Backstab although possibly repeated Feints until I lose aggro might be a better option
Weapons
Daggers, perhaps with a macro to swap in maces for face to face fights. A face to face fight means something's gone wrong but that's to be anticipated. Possibly it's not worth the time investment of skilling up the maces, especially since I would lose the benefit of Dagger Specialisation when using them. The other advantage of the faster daggers is proccing more poison
Instant poison rather than deadly poison to fit the anti-dot theme
I have a question on dual-wielding. I understand that dual-wielding reduces chance to hit of both weapons. For my specials like Ambush and Backstab am I better to use one dagger only then macro in a dual wield set for auto-attack or does the dual-wield penalty not affect skills?
Talents
Assassination Talents (31 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 50%.
Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 points
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Vigor - 1/1 points
Increases your maximum Energy by 10.
Combat Talents (20 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 10.
Lightning Reflexes - 3/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
Improved Sprint - 2/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 60 seconds.
Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.
Subtlety Talents (0 points)
None
Discard pile:
Remorseless attacks - it seems a bit too situational. It won't always be me getting the kill in the group so there's a good chance of it doing nothing. It will also do nothing whenever I have the superior Cold Blood available (3 minute cooldown). If I find that the group kills something every 10-20 seconds and I get half the group's kills personally then I'll have to review this assessment
Improved slice and dice - this is effectively a dot. I'd prefer Eviscerate for damage now than slice and dice for damage over the next 30 seconds
Improved Expose Armour - another dot.
Vile poisons - it's a toss-up between this and Improved Instant poison to get the pre-req points for the higher talents. The maths seems to be this:
Vile poisons 5 = X poison damage +15% for the talent proccing 30% of the time = X * 1.15 * .3 = 0.345 X per weapon hit
Improved instant poison = X poison damage proccing 40% = 0.4 X per weapon hit
Unless there's something I've missed, Improved instant poison is a clear winner, over twice as good in fact, although Vile poisons has a greater versatility
Improved gouge - I have to take this or 3 points of Lightning Reflexes as pre-req. Gouge isn't in the game plan but then neither is having to dodge so I've opted for the passive
Deflection 2 vs Improved sprint 2 vs Improved Evasion 2 - I have two points to spend here, none are skills I'm especially after. Sprint seems the most generally useful but I'd be interested in what experienced players have to say
Dual wield specialization - I was very unsure whether +50% damage to off-hand weapon beats +5% critical on Daggers. Has any number-crunching been done on this?
Talents summary
OK, to summarise that list the basic idea is to encourage combo points, critical chances, energy management and raw damage.
In developing it I guess the most practical route would be to develop Assassination as fast as possible and then Combat afterwards
Build Summary
I'm after a front-loaded, drop a ton of damage down fast then be out of mana build. I'd very much welcome your experienced advice :)
PS: isn't this fun? Blizzard do do this very well, giving you options to work out a character, it reminds me of planning Diablo2 characters. I haven't seen anything like so much pre-planning possible in other games
I see there's been some debate on the boards recently about min-maxing. I prefer min-maxing myself so I'd like criticism that will help me optimise damage output
This is my brief:
I want to play a Rogue
I want to optimise for play in a competent group. I'm hooking up with the Brains guild and I'm assuming that much of my time will be with a solid tank who can hold aggro and a healer who thinks heals > nukes.
I want to optimise for instant damage over damage over time. I'm imagining that I'll be in groups good enough to steamroller a lot of the content so a 30 second dot is a bit of a waste on something that dies in 10 seconds.
I want to optimise for PvE. I'll almost certainly PvP in due course but I'd like to level up fast then respec rather than employ a jack-of-all-trades template just to stay flexible. I don't mean I won't pvp while levelling up, just that I don't want to take power away from the pve side
I like crafting in these games so I anticipate being able to support a costly build to run. If I need to drink a mana potion more often than most that's not a big concern
This is my initial idea for tactics
The big assumption is that there are viable crowd control, damage mitigation and tanking options elsewhere in the party so I can focus on killing speed.
The expectation is that monsters will arrive at the tank with me stealthed a few yards away. I read Roland's comments about Rogue pulling a page back with great interest but I'm expecting not to be the puller in a fast-paced group that will have established its procedures before I catch up with them. I'll let the tank build a bit of hate then:
Cold blood
Ambush
(maybe Feint)
Backstab
Eviscerate
thistle tea
Vanish
Ambush
Feint
Backstab
Eviscerate
and that's about it
I had a long look at Preparation and I felt it was a big chunk of talent points which would cost damage. I also discarded Improved Sap despite reading that it is very highly regarded. This is because I'm joining a little late and I imagine I'll be hooking up with players who are coping perfectly well with the game and don't need crowd control quite so much as the general population at large
Sinister strike is an option for fights where I can't get the position for Backstab although possibly repeated Feints until I lose aggro might be a better option
Weapons
Daggers, perhaps with a macro to swap in maces for face to face fights. A face to face fight means something's gone wrong but that's to be anticipated. Possibly it's not worth the time investment of skilling up the maces, especially since I would lose the benefit of Dagger Specialisation when using them. The other advantage of the faster daggers is proccing more poison
Instant poison rather than deadly poison to fit the anti-dot theme
I have a question on dual-wielding. I understand that dual-wielding reduces chance to hit of both weapons. For my specials like Ambush and Backstab am I better to use one dagger only then macro in a dual wield set for auto-attack or does the dual-wield penalty not affect skills?
Talents
Assassination Talents (31 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 50%.
Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 points
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Vigor - 1/1 points
Increases your maximum Energy by 10.
Combat Talents (20 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 10.
Lightning Reflexes - 3/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
Improved Sprint - 2/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 60 seconds.
Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.
Subtlety Talents (0 points)
None
Discard pile:
Remorseless attacks - it seems a bit too situational. It won't always be me getting the kill in the group so there's a good chance of it doing nothing. It will also do nothing whenever I have the superior Cold Blood available (3 minute cooldown). If I find that the group kills something every 10-20 seconds and I get half the group's kills personally then I'll have to review this assessment
Improved slice and dice - this is effectively a dot. I'd prefer Eviscerate for damage now than slice and dice for damage over the next 30 seconds
Improved Expose Armour - another dot.
Vile poisons - it's a toss-up between this and Improved Instant poison to get the pre-req points for the higher talents. The maths seems to be this:
Vile poisons 5 = X poison damage +15% for the talent proccing 30% of the time = X * 1.15 * .3 = 0.345 X per weapon hit
Improved instant poison = X poison damage proccing 40% = 0.4 X per weapon hit
Unless there's something I've missed, Improved instant poison is a clear winner, over twice as good in fact, although Vile poisons has a greater versatility
Improved gouge - I have to take this or 3 points of Lightning Reflexes as pre-req. Gouge isn't in the game plan but then neither is having to dodge so I've opted for the passive
Deflection 2 vs Improved sprint 2 vs Improved Evasion 2 - I have two points to spend here, none are skills I'm especially after. Sprint seems the most generally useful but I'd be interested in what experienced players have to say
Dual wield specialization - I was very unsure whether +50% damage to off-hand weapon beats +5% critical on Daggers. Has any number-crunching been done on this?
Talents summary
OK, to summarise that list the basic idea is to encourage combo points, critical chances, energy management and raw damage.
In developing it I guess the most practical route would be to develop Assassination as fast as possible and then Combat afterwards
Build Summary
I'm after a front-loaded, drop a ton of damage down fast then be out of mana build. I'd very much welcome your experienced advice :)
PS: isn't this fun? Blizzard do do this very well, giving you options to work out a character, it reminds me of planning Diablo2 characters. I haven't seen anything like so much pre-planning possible in other games