Warrior tanking builds

[Taelas]

In preparation for WotLK, I'm currently levelling my warrior. My current plan is to stick with him, but I have a notorious difficulty in sticking to just one character, so whether or not that holds up, I can't say.

I'm levelling him as Protection (mostly through instances), mainly because if I weren't, I'd still be asked to tank any instance I join. I love tanking, so that's not a problem, but I'm becoming a bit uncertain on my planned build.

The build I'm shooting for is 8/0/53; basically everything that's worth taking in Protection and the "essential" Arms talents. Many builds I see are 8/5/48 (or some minor variation, such as 10/5/46), however, and I don't see why. Cruelty, while a strong talent, is of marginal use to a tank--under just about any circumstances that I can think of. Critting on a Revenge or a Shield Slam is solid aggro, sure, but it's not something you can rely on--unlike the talents in Protection.

The only talents I see as "skippable" are Anticipation, Improved Sunder Armor, One-Hand Weapon Specialization and Improved Taunt. Anticipation can be made up for in gear, and while 2 seconds less on the CD of Taunt is nice, you shouldn't have to use it often enough for it to be much of an issue. I take Improved Sunder Armor mainly because having a 10-rage Sunder is nice. One-Hand Weapon Specialization, while extra, solid threat, is not a huge bonus. Still, all of these talents are always in effect when you want them to be, making them more reliable than Cruelty.

I was wondering what makes the warrior tanks out there take Cruelty, and what your opinions are on the more questionable Protection talents.

(My planned build: 8/0/53)

[Mavfin]

I'm currently using a 9/5/47 build on my tank. Look up Keshi on Stormrage (yes, I'm too lazy to go get the armory link, but, I figure it's pretty easy given the name and the server:D)

[Kevin]

I can depend on what you are tanking as well.

I'm running the following: 11/5/45

The reason? I mostly tank 5 mans. The extra threat and rage from crits is nice. Tactical mastery has just about no use while tanking (you lose 5 rage on the macro'd charge and hit def stance without it) you can still flop to zerker and intercept without it as well.

5 mans can still be "low rage" so anger management is nice. Especially since you can just wait for the rage to build to break a CC if you like. HS is still used in 5 mans so it's a much better filler to get AM than the other arms talents. Cruelty and AM are both very nice DPS boosts if you end up in the position of being DPS instead of tanking. And if you do a 5 man with a pally tank, which will happen, the total group damage is higher with you doing DPS and the pally tanking.

Imp shield wall also doesn't generally matter in a 5 man either. Same with 4% less spell damage you aren't getting hit by big spells that you can't reflect or just interrupt in a 5 man and you can generally afford to hold rage for spell reflect because the reflected spells tend to generate a fair bit of damage and aggro. Imp taunt is a huge help in PuGs with people that can't focus DPS. It might not let you hold the mob put it can save a healer for sure. But yeah it's still skipable. And I'll likely drop it and a few points in anticipation for imp bloodrage and more in imp defensive stance.

But I know that I'm not always going to tank with him. Cruelty and Anger Management are very like 50 DPS or so extra when I'm not tanking. That matters more than the very marginal upgrades I'll get from the prot talents I don't have. Tactical Mastery would help in a DPS roll a bit as well but I still look at it mostly as a PvP talent. It was a lot more valuable when you couldn't use thunderclap in defensive stance.

Imp shield bash would be nice for 5 mans as well to help position mobs, but I can live without it.


I value anticipation as well. It means I can spend the itemization that would have been used for that 48 defense rating on stamina or something else (like hit rating which is pretty big for TPS if you aren't at 5.6%). I got to do the Nagrand forge camp quest series twice in a row. The first time was to get it done for me, and I got the BP that has the 20 hit rating. That was my only gear change and my skill usage the next time through and group set up was the same and 20 hit rating was about 30 threat per second more in my gearing level. Over looking +hit in tanking gear as a warrior is a mistake in my book, especially in 5 mans where you are tanking several mobs at once many times. Don't give up too much mit for it but anticipation will allow you to make some gear choices that lets you either get some hit or get even more avoidance or stam.

Just my thoughts on it. Cruelty is a pretty decent increase in average TPS and the utility of AM is just too nice for me. It's skippable for sure but I find too much value in it for how I play.

[Artega]

My understanding is that there is no Warrior build out there that would be better without Cruelty than with. +5% crit increases Rage and threat generation, and that's probably going to be more useful than other marginal upgrades found in the five points you were going to sink into Protection. If you're really dead-set against not having Cruelty, then I'd take three of the points and put them into Improved Heroic Strike.

[Taelas]

My understanding is that there is no Warrior build out there that would be better without Cruelty than with. +5% crit increases Rage and threat generation, and that's probably going to be more useful than other marginal upgrades found in the five points you were going to sink into Protection. If you're really dead-set against not having Cruelty, then I'd take three of the points and put them into Improved Heroic Strike.

Improved Heroic Strike? What for?

If you check the build I linked to, I have already spent all my points on a 8/0/53 build. It's not that I am deadset against Cruelty, it's that I don't see the point. Why take it in the first place? Sure it's more threat and more rage, but it's only a 5% crit increase. Yes, it's considerable, especially as it'd double my crit range, but critting twice in twenty hits instead of once isn't really that much of an improvement.

I could dump Improved Sunder Armor and Improved Taunt and scavenge a point off One-Hand Weapon Specialization for more threat and rage, and it wouldn't affect my playstyle too much, but I still don't see the point.

[Mavfin]

Improved Heroic Strike? What for?

Because HS is your no-GCD rage dump on high-rage fights.

[vor_lord]

It's not that I am deadset against Cruelty, it's that I don't see the point.

Some credible estimates recently have shown that 60% of prot warrior threat generation scales with damage done (I have no source so take that for what it is worth). Assuming that is true, 5/5 Cruelty is really roughly 3% greater threat generation. 5/5 1H spec is somewhat less than 6% greater threat generation due to the use of shield slam for a nice chunk of that 60%. That is unless 1H spec also applies to shield slam damage... that's an interesting question that I am not certain of.

If you consider the big value these talents are for when you aren't tanking, I think you'll see why most tanks choose to take cruelty and 1H spec.

That of course doesn't imply that you have to.

[Artega]

Some credible estimates recently have shown that 60% of prot warrior threat generation scales with damage done (I have no source so take that for what it is worth). Assuming that is true, 5/5 Cruelty is really roughly 3% greater threat generation. 5/5 1H spec is somewhat less than 6% greater threat generation due to the use of shield slam for a nice chunk of that 60%. That is unless 1H spec also applies to shield slam damage... that's an interesting question that I am not certain of.

If you consider the big value these talents are for when you aren't tanking, I think you'll see why most tanks choose to take cruelty and 1H spec.

That of course doesn't imply that you have to.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization also affects Shield Slam and Shield Bash.

The talent build that I usually use is this one, though I'm sure it's not good for 25-man raiding. But I doubt I'll ever see 25-man raids, and I see Karazhan pretty rarely as it is, so it works for me. Heroic Strike accounts for a fair bit of my threat, particularly in Heroics where some fights I'll have plenty of rage to dump, so making it more efficient is a no-brainer. I don't need Improved Taunt because I don't lose aggro. I don't need Improved Defensive Stance because at the level of things I'm tanking, an extra 6% off a damage type that I don't face a great deal of to begin with is fairly pointless. Improved Shield Bash gives me a silence on top of the interrupt which makes pulling casters with multiple spell schools feasible (though the daze effect is annoying) and is also handy for PvP. I do not need Anticipation because I can hit 490 defense quite easily through gear alone, and I don't even NEED 490 defense if I choose to wear a couple pieces of PvP gear, since the resilience crit reduction more than covers the small amount missing if I go down to 470 or 460 defense.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Improved Heroic Strike? What for?

Saved rage, is gained rage.

If you check the build I linked to, I have already spent all my points on a 8/0/53 build. It's not that I am deadset against Cruelty, it's that I don't see the point. Why take it in the first place? Sure it's more threat and more rage, but it's only a 5% crit increase. Yes, it's considerable, especially as it'd double my crit range, but critting twice in twenty hits instead of once isn't really that much of an improvement.

Then why get improved bloodrage?

The flaw with protection spec is as your gear gets better, your threat goes down because you don't get as much rage. I can go out of rage on pretty much any fight if I over dump.

[Taelas]

Because HS is your no-GCD rage dump on high-rage fights.

That's just the thing, though -- it's a rage dump. Improving its rage efficiency is way down on my priority list.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization also affects Shield Slam and Shield Bash.

The talent build that I usually use is this one, though I'm sure it's not good for 25-man raiding. But I doubt I'll ever see 25-man raids, and I see Karazhan pretty rarely as it is, so it works for me. Heroic Strike accounts for a fair bit of my threat, particularly in Heroics where some fights I'll have plenty of rage to dump, so making it more efficient is a no-brainer. I don't need Improved Taunt because I don't lose aggro. I don't need Improved Defensive Stance because at the level of things I'm tanking, an extra 6% off a damage type that I don't face a great deal of to begin with is fairly pointless. Improved Shield Bash gives me a silence on top of the interrupt which makes pulling casters with multiple spell schools feasible (though the daze effect is annoying) and is also handy for PvP. I do not need Anticipation because I can hit 490 defense quite easily through gear alone, and I don't even NEED 490 defense if I choose to wear a couple pieces of PvP gear, since the resilience crit reduction more than covers the small amount missing if I go down to 470 or 460 defense.

While I am not exactly planning on heading into 25-mans at the moment (though I'd love to do so in the future), the build I want should serve well in that area -- and in 5-mans/Heroics as well.

Revenge and Improved Shield Bash, while nice, cost too much for too little, in my opinion. Far too many mobs are simply immune to the effects.

Saved rage, is gained rage.

True, but I only use Heroic Strike if I have tons of rage in the first place. Improving its rage efficiency is not a high priority.

Then why get improved bloodrage?

Because I like being able to activate it and potentially save a bad pull with a quick Thunderclap or Shield Slam. Done it before, and if I had to wait for it to tick more than once, it wouldn't be possible.

Improved Bloodrage is, while expensive, essential to my tanking style. It's not something I want to lose.

The flaw with protection spec is as your gear gets better, your threat goes down because you don't get as much rage. I can go out of rage on pretty much any fight if I over dump.

This can be solved by wearing lesser gear or removing pieces of gear. In any raid situation, this will not be an issue, though.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I guess it comes down to your style, if you don't feel starved for rage you probably aren't trying hard enough. :)Being a tank means soaking damage for your party and spitting it back into your targets as threat, the less rage things cost the more threat you can generate the better you do your job.

On a side note I actually like this spec for 5 mans. Very forgiving for pug mistakes or just when you're impatient and pull sloppy. It also makes you immune to disarm which can be helpful.

[Artega]

I prefer to use a weapon with a weapon chain for mobs that disarm:)

[Taelas]

I guess it comes down to your style, if you don't feel starved for rage you probably aren't trying hard enough. :)Being a tank means soaking damage for your party and spitting it back into your targets as threat, the less rage things cost the more threat you can generate the better you do your job.

Heroic Strike is a rage dump. If I'm using Heroic Strike, I'm already filling my GCDs up with Sunders/Devastates, Shield Slams, or Revenges (not to mention keeping Shield Block up). If I have enough rage for that, I'm not rage-starved. I can easily empty my rage bar by spamming Heroic Strike; that's not exactly difficult. It's not very smart, either.

[Mavfin]

Heroic Strike is a rage dump. If I'm using Heroic Strike, I'm already filling my GCDs up with Sunders/Devastates, Shield Slams, or Revenges (not to mention keeping Shield Block up). If I have enough rage for that, I'm not rage-starved. I can easily empty my rage bar by spamming Heroic Strike; that's not exactly difficult. It's not very smart, either.

In heavy raid fights, you're using the extra rage every swing for Heroic Strike, *for the threat*, not just as a rage dump. That's why the extra point I had 'left over' in my build went into Imp HS, for those times that I needed the extra threat, and that lowered the threshold for me to do it.

No, using HS when you don't have the rage for it when tanking isn't very smart, but, since it's not on the GCD, it's a way to piggyback extra threat on top of the GCD skills in fights that you have the rage to do so.

Now, on a couple specific skills. The main reason I didn't put points in imp sunder is that sunder isn't as huge as it once was, and I already get it for -3 rage from focused rage. I put those points elsewhere. The only time I even bother to put up a sunder stack of 5 is on bosses, or mobs that we're going to fight long enough to be worth it. Imp Bloodrage? That's a playstyle choice for you. On the other hand, in the days of de-aggroing mobs, and bursty DPS (like Lightning Overload), Imp Taunt is well worth it, IMO.

As far as Cruelty, an extra 5% crit is that much more threat, and it scales with your ap and weapons. Raid-buffed, I think my crit is in the 12% range. That's a fair amount of threat. YMMV. Of course, that also helps me when another prot is not needed, and I need to do what DPS I can. Again, if *all* you ever think you'll do is tank, then I guess you don't have to consider solo stuff at all, or DPS. Up to you.

[Loche]

I play a Priest as my main, but also have a Prot Warrior as my alt. I MT KZ and Heroics mostly when I'm on the Warrior.

I use an 8/11/42 build.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents...an&n=Zaknalfien

Here are some of the things I like about the build....

AE Tanking Skills - I find Imp TC and PH to be terrific AE tanking skills. TC/PC/Demo/Cleave & Tab Taunt for AE tanking. I can save healers a lot of mana, and heal agro by tank kiting with PH. I've tanked 4-5 mobs this way in Heroic SH, just by getting past that initial pull, where I need to build some spike AE agro, then use PH to kite the mobs w/o tanking dmg.

Threat Generation & DPS - The points given above are the same reasons I chose the spec I did. Often times I find myself tanking for DPS main toons, geared out in SSC/TK/Mag/Gruul gear, and I'm doing everything possible just to stay ahead of them in threat. Having the rage available to spam to 5 sunders, TC, Demo, and then start the GCD spam of SS, Devastate, Revenge...all while using my auto swing on HS or Cleave, is awesome. I find that in many fights, I need the extra threat from HS, or extra AE threat from Cleave. Having a nice 1h weapon, w/ Cruelty and Imp 1H, gives me some solid rage and white dmg threat.

Also, on DPS fights like Shade, it's great to be able to DW and spam Devastate/HS and not run outta rage in seconds.

Talents that I find missing in my build...

- I do wish I coud get Anger Managment, but I would not give up PH for it.
- Imp HS. I use HS alot, expecially on boss fights where I'm fighting to push my TPS up.
- Imp Taunt. While one might say that you really shouldn't need this. Multi mob tanking, expecailly w/ a healer w/ low threat reduction abilities (i.e. no fade), Imp taunt is very nice. If I did heroics full time, I'd probably get this.
- Imp Revenge. See Imp Taunt. Great skill for the Heroic only tank.
- Imp Devensive Stance. This is more of a 25 man tanking talent, and if I started to tank some SSC bosses or something, I'd certainly try to get this one.

Talents I don't miss at all...

- Imp Charge/Imp Overpower. I used to swear by these talents. I just don't miss them at all now.
- Imp Sunder. This one is on the bubble. I suppose if I really wanted to lock down multi mobs, being able to tab/sunder spam would be a great way to do it. I just find the use of cleave, TC and PH to work better for me. Also, I don't mind one mob getting pulled from me, cuz that means I can taunt it back and 'steal' the threat.

[Taelas]

In heavy raid fights, you're using the extra rage every swing for Heroic Strike, *for the threat*, not just as a rage dump. That's why the extra point I had 'left over' in my build went into Imp HS, for those times that I needed the extra threat, and that lowered the threshold for me to do it.

It's still much lower priority than the others.

We're talking three rage per Heroic Strike. Yes, it's not insignificant, but it isn't likely to cause me to lose aggro either (especially since I have very rage-efficient Sunders), even in a raid environment.

As far as Cruelty, an extra 5% crit is that much more threat, and it scales with your ap and weapons. Raid-buffed, I think my crit is in the 12% range. That's a fair amount of threat. YMMV. Of course, that also helps me when another prot is not needed, and I need to do what DPS I can. Again, if *all* you ever think you'll do is tank, then I guess you don't have to consider solo stuff at all, or DPS. Up to you.

It's not that I think I won't ever do anything other than tank -- it's that I want to be have the absolute best build (which of course is determined a great deal by my playstyle, such as Improved Bloodrage) for the job when I do tank -- and personally, I feel those five points are better spent in Protection. Threat DOES sometimes prove an issue for me, though. I guess I'll just have to try it out sometime to see what it plays like.:)

I think the best Cruelty-build I can come up with that suits my playstyle well is this: 8/5/48

Not that I use Shield Wall all that much, but when I do use it, I prefer to have it up for as long as possible.

[Skandranon]

It's still much lower priority than the others.

We're talking three rage per Heroic Strike. Yes, it's not insignificant, but it isn't likely to cause me to lose aggro either (especially since I have very rage-efficient Sunders), even in a raid environment.

I'd imagine that tanking style has a lot to do with how you value these talents. I know that my tanks don't sunder at all - DPS warriors build the sunder stack for them so they don't have to interrupt their max-threat rotation to put the sunders up themselves.