Wow! Trump's Comments Actually Shock Me!

[kandrathe]

When you are just talking about white nationalist scum you are accusing a whole group of people with very different levels of nationalism. Lots of blue collar workers who weren't represented by the democrats anymore.

Yes, but... what the leftists bundle in the alt-right for demagogic expediency is more complicated. I'm going to add my two cents... ok, realistically, I’ve held back a few months, so you get the full $20 version.

From my perspective as someone relegated by the expansion of the US political extremist universe to a place of relative centrism. I’m tending to think there is no “one Ring” of ideology to “rule them all”.



Here is a diagram I drew for a friend from Africa recently as we discussed the various “lenses” representing US political thought. Most people are mainly “for” a position, and “against” what they see as it’s malevolent opposite. While everyone sees themselves correct, and at the top side of this chart, people tend to also see their opponents advocacy for a different “positive” position reflecting to the bottom of the chart.

I believe the bulk of Trump votes were more against Hillary, and a large enough group felt abandoned during the Obama slow recovery. I also feel the Clintons are perceived to leave a trail of corruption behind them like a Honeywagon. Trump was the devil they didn’t know, so people who tend towards the optimistic, held their noses and picked one of the skunks.

At the almost extremist wing nut fringe, you have the outright racists like Duke, or Spencer who advocate for "ethnic nationalism", or what amounts to voluntary ethnic separation, or some form of territorial apartheid. It's beyond ludicrous, and immoral to just outright crazy. There are some beyond this level of crazy, bordering on violent extremism, but not many. When found, they make the press though, as representatives of the fearful deplorables they want us to cower from.

So, forget the small minority of outright racists...like Duke, or Spencer. They are a remnant of mostly the old South holdouts being castigated and abandoned by the Democrats, like Kennedy, and "publicly" by LBJ. In the 1960's, those against civil rights for black people, opted for the other party, in a two-party system.

Unfortunately, in that Nixonian era, the Republicans flying in the face of their own history of emancipation, saw the opportunity to rise from an obscure minority to annex the votes of the disenfranchised Dixiecrats. Yet, had they not, the erstwhile Whig party would still be a minor 20% of the vote, and we'd have had the last 40 years dominated by one party. My adherence to a moral high ground is the main reason I could never be a modern Republican, or vote for a reprobate like Trump.

The other major type of alt right call themselves “Civic Nationalists” in the model of Ernest Renan and John Stuart Mill, but it tends to blur patriotism into jingoism at times. They tend to unquestioningly adhere to the symbols of patriotic nationalism, with dedication, and without much question or critical analysis. Thus, the never ending “War on Terror” resolution, used to put the US in conflict mode for 16 years now. This is used to justify the worst abuses, unchecked police state surveillance, to torture, to extrajudicial drone strike killing in any nation, to extraordinary rendition to black site prisons in nations with the most questionable HR records. In 2001, I tended to be more here, yet felt most of it was over the top. But, it was all justified to “Prevent another 911”.

These people will never change their mind when being accused.....this is the whole reason Trump supporters are still supporting him.

Them? Who are they? While I did not vote for him, and I personally don't like him, or most of his policies, he is what we have. By the rules we set up for fair elections, this was the one selected, so we live with it. All the Democrats, half the Republicans (old guards e.g. Ryan, McCain), and most of the entrenched bureaucracy outright despise him, and I feel fear his penchant for “loose cannon” abrupt change.

Unless there really is something to the year old Mueller investigation, besides the old tried and true perjury or obstruction of justice traps, neither of which have anything to do with any actual evidence of Russian meddling. If they can impeach him, they will. If not, they either live with it, or go the JFK route. I’m pretty convinced now that there are more layers to our political onion, than we are allowed to, or are willing to see.

Far more dangerous (but of course largely overlapping) are the extremist Christians. They embrace anyone who can help them ban abortion or the right of extremely ill people to end their live in peace or ...well anything that people should be able to decide by themselves but that Christians would like to decide for them.

Well… you and I disagree on the danger posed by 99.9999% of Christians, as I live as one, and among them daily my whole life. I do think it is a fundamental role of government to protect its vulnerable citizens from being murdered by either the government, or each other. Also, being among the diaspora of refugee Islamic Somalian in Minnesota, I would say the same about the vast majority of 99.9999% of them as well. There is always room for some impressionable people being led astray by either being crazy, or crazy ideological thinking. Again, I see it as fear mongering to point at any group as a monolith of unified thought.

Trump is probably farthest away from what you could call a ''good christian''.....someone that would help the poor, be modest, not rude, doesn’t swear, stays with his first wife etc..... but just because he dangles the carrot in front of the Christian extremists he gets their votes.

I agree he exhibits an un-Christian life, which in the political realm is all that matters to Christians. Like I said earlier, I couldn’t vote for any person I felt lacked the moral character I expect as a representative of the leader of the US. In Christian thought, everyone is a sinner and in process of seeking redemption. Sort of like Buddhists seeking serenity, and inner tranquility. So, perhaps Trump's journey to redemption will ultimately be a failure, but what would be important to either of the aforementioned philosophies is to stay on the path. There is good reason for the verse, "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." Referring to the plethora of temptations afforded a wealthy, powerful person.

This is something that is not only happening in the US though. Everywhere leaders have understood that they can treat the religious extremists in this way.......you can tell them to pay 20% more tax as long as you tell them you hate the other religion or you will pass legislation that forces everyone to live like these extremists and they vote for you.

Now you had to go and get all bigoted again. All those monolithic religious extremists who gobble up whatever lying gobs of Pablum you spoon feed them. People will tend to choose, vote for those things that are in their self-interest. We depend on it, in fact, as the cornerstone of democracy. I would add the caveat that we are in an era of unparalleled ease in the dissemination of propaganda. Where Macedonian clickbait miners can make a fortune pitting US political adversaries against each other on Facebook, because a generation of people are too used to uncritically believing whatever looks like an official news story.

His racial politics are by the way of least concern. What he does against science, the environment and his support of weapons and oil industry are by far worse than the fact that some people from some countries are not allowed to travel into the US anymore.

Close, but I think you have veered from the mark. My take is that he is trying to run the nation as CEO of America, Inc. I think he pretty much views the people as his workers, or at least the wealthiest (potential donors) as shareholders. His measure of his own, and the US success will be likely more economic, as in GDP. His "mission", in my perception, is he wants to recraft the US as a great place to do business. Corporations ( and unions), at their worst, are mainly amoral (although can be immoral), subservient to the bottom line, without much regard to obstacles, like environment, worker safety, or fairness to the “competition”. But, "corpus" means body, or in this context a like minded collection of individuals acting as one body. Generally though, the morality of any group is shaped by its leadership and only limited by enforced external regulation.

Ok. That’s is my $20 contribution for now. Someday, maybe I’ll get you to lighten up on your evil enemy too.

P.S.
@Team : I tend to think along the lines of Quinta Jurecic here contributing to WAPO -- Robert Mueller can’t save us - The Washington Post