...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :(

[Bolty]

Then get a character above level 40 on a PvP server.[right][snapback]73276[/snapback][/right]

You forgot that I had a level 47 PvP Warlock in beta, didn't you?

No, it doesn't end after 40. Yes, the random I'm-just-trying-to-run-down-this-road-so-please-leave-me-alone-but-I-know-you-won't-because-you're-an-asshat-who-is-20-levels-above-me gankings stop, but the stupid PvP remains.

Best example I always quote was an Uldaman party I was in clearing out the pre-instance stuff. We encounter another party of 5 Horde in one of the chambers filled with mobs. PvP here would be *completely* pointless - no one would win, and both parties would get annihilated.

So of course, the rogue in my party attacks the other group. 30 seconds later, we're all dead. Every last one of us, since in the battle royale many of the mobs got woken up and trained on any survivors. Sure, my party "won," in that the Horde players died first, but the two of us left were mopped up by about 6 NPCs. Everybody then corpse runs, and 3 minutes later we're staring at each other again. Lesson learned? Nope. Horde attacks. Everyone dies again.

In the end, 10 players basically lose about an hour of their lives in a pointless endeavor when they could have simply left each other alone. As a result, we didn't have the time to run the instance that night.

With the honor system coming in, that might have all had a point - after all, we would have scored honor, if not gotten quests done - but with the honor system going in, these encounters will be actually encouraged now. Sometimes I just want to get some quests done, you know?

So in the end I lose out - I have to live with the "PvP-lite" you accurately described, because PvP on the PvE servers is most definitely second-rate. Example on Stormrage: grouping for a Sunken Temple run, we were waiting around for a 5th player. I, enjoying the PvP experience, run down to Stonard and smack around some guards to flag myself.

A minute or two goes by when a level 50-something Horde Warrior comes along, unflagged. In a PvP environment, I could have smacked him down - but due to the PvP-lite rules, he got to stand there, unflagged, and wait - for his buddies to come along, including two level 60's.

Our Lurker group made up of early 50-somethings, all flagged, are forced to stand there while they get organized and prepare for attack. So of course they all target me (the healer), a 60 rogue we didn't see unstealths and attacks, and I'm dead in 10 seconds. They then mop up the rest of us without difficulty, and think they're hot stuff for winning. Not real PvP. Real PvP would have the Horde flagging themselves as they approached us instead of standing around waiting to make the perfect first strike.

Mongo, you and I have always agreed that PvP servers are better - we just differ massively on the one key point, the ganking. You are able to put up with being engaged by other players you have absolutely no chance of defeating whatsoever. I am less willing to have my time wasted by jerks.

When the honor system is rolled out, there will be a significant increase in the PvP activity on PvE servers, and I'll see how that plays out.

-Bolty