05-01-2009, 11:19 PM
Quote:If there is no threat of a consequence, there is little to no incentive for cooperation. When time is no facter, that may be an agreeable state of play. When it is (and in politics, perception is reality) then playing the waiting game is a guaranteed non successful ploy. When you are dealing with the class of people that fit into "True Believer" models, see Hoffer, you are not dealing with anything other than a difficult to impossible information extraction task. See also Stockdale, a True Believer in his own right.Right. And when we're staring down the maw at the three-billion strong army ready to smash down civilization, maybe we'll start thinking about quick-and-dirty methods. But we're not even close to that yet. We're not even at a level of danger that approaches, say, the Korean war, let alone a conflict that justifies throwing the niceties out the window. If the argument is one of necessity, then the counter is obvious: there isn't a necessity. And if the results show anything, it's that there's barely even a point to it even if getting accurate information was absolutely urgent: you don't get much useful information out of torture. Why throw away principles for a sword that isn't even sharp?
Quote:You and people like you weren't. Guess why? You aren't a threat, nor do you habitually associate with people who blow other people up by flying planes into buildings for reasons[i] that remain acceptable to you, obviously, but not to me.Am I reading that wrong, or are you implying that I believe that Al Qaeda had acceptable reasons for September 11? If so, that's a pretty low blow.
Quote:I think you make an enormous mistake in presuming that the war of symbols will only be won your way, by your perceived method of rightness.Well, you can always try winning it by muddying the waters about torture, and blustering about how horrible your enemies are. Surely you can see how very effective that's been at winning hearts and minds all over the globe, it's been US policy for 8 years running.
Quote:The enemy gets a vote. They spit at your modern world, and its effete sensibilities. You aren't winning anyone's hearts and minds, except within your own imagination.Right, because the only people who are watching our actions are people who "spit" at the "modern world". Surely you know that "hearts and minds" isn't about winning over the diehards. It's about making it clear that, while they may be callously brutal, we are not. And it's as much about winning the peace afterwards as it is about sheer effectiveness.
-Jester