05-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Hi,
So far, I'm underwhelmed. Using that definition gets me precisely nowhere since I still need to determine what 'severe' is, what the subject considers mental suffering (someone desecrating a Koran would not bother me in the same way as it would a devout Muslim), at the least. We're right back to where we began, what is torture? Some of the rites of manhood practiced by many cultures until recently (some still practiced) would qualify as torture except in purpose.
Sorry, I think the UN guidelines are every bit as useless as my definition which you demolished. We still don't know what torture is.
--Pete
Quote:There isn't going to be a hard and fast definition, but I think the UN guidelines look pretty good to me.Fair enough. Let start there.
Quote:The important bits being "severe", . . .Who gets to determine what is severe? Me, or you? For if I get to define severe, it will be a question of days, perhaps weeks, of healing. Your definition, I suspect, will be somewhat gentler.
Quote: . . . "physical or mental" . . .As opposed to? Spiritual?
Quote: . . . "intentionally".Well, that's good.
So far, I'm underwhelmed. Using that definition gets me precisely nowhere since I still need to determine what 'severe' is, what the subject considers mental suffering (someone desecrating a Koran would not bother me in the same way as it would a devout Muslim), at the least. We're right back to where we began, what is torture? Some of the rites of manhood practiced by many cultures until recently (some still practiced) would qualify as torture except in purpose.
Quote:Treating someone shabbily is not torture. Imprisonment, at least in its ordinary form, is not torture, but something like the Oubliette is, especially over long periods. Ordinary labour is not torture, but forced exertion to the point of physical damage (death march) is. Missing the occasional meal or not sleeping the occasional night is not torture, but chronic or severe deprivation of food or sleep is. Discomfort is not torture, but severe pain is. Some level of fear is inevitable, but the intentional infliction of acute terror, especially when repeated, is torture. Extreme humiliation is a grey area, but should be avoided by civilized nations on the basis of the disturbing effect it has on those doing the humiliation.Yeah, we're in agreement. At one extreme is throwing someone a party. At the opposite is destroying their body or their mind (or both). Somewhere on this spectrum someone has to determine where torture starts. Should that be a bleeding heart Canadian liberal or a WWII super-Bushido Japanese soldier?
Sorry, I think the UN guidelines are every bit as useless as my definition which you demolished. We still don't know what torture is.
--Pete
How big was the aquarium in Noah's ark?