Should civilized nations use "Enhanced Interrogation" techni

[Jester]

It is important first of all to win. The "modern world" is a mix of things, but if it doesn't win, then we move backward.

Once we win, it is well to look back and see what we could have done better, or less imperfectly. But you only have that luxury when you win.

In the meantime, you gotta make the winning omlette, which means ya gotta break a few eggs.

Proportionality and realistic risk assessment are important. This is not the worst the modern world has faced. It's not even close. It's not even close to close. Bringing every dubious tactic to every fight is not only unnecessary, it is damaging to your reputation, which already teeters on the brink in many parts of the world. The fight against Islamist terrorism is a fight that could have been handled with well-organized international police and intelligence action. By "breaking eggs", the Islamic world has been further alienated, allies of the US have become tepid, and the big neutrals like Russia and China are clearly noticing that the US is becoming less and less popular. That's what treating every problem as if it were the end of the world gets you.

I disagree with the standard that you hold the leadership of the modern world to. No, Jester, the terrorists don't win if we kick a few of them around here and there in our pursuit of the win. That is an issue I suspect you and I may never see eye to eye on.

I believe it was actually Pete that took a line of argument similar to that one in this thread, that we must keep ourselves moral because otherwise we abandon our civilization, which is what makes us the right side. While I agree with him, my argument has been more pragmatic. Being willing to "break eggs" and "do the deed" and "get the win" might be fantastic macho posturing, but it doesn't seem to actually give particularly good results.

And no, we're almost certainly never going to see eye to eye about this, and compromise positions start to evaporate mighty fast when you start throwing around not-so-veiled implications that I am somehow anti-civilization, or sympathetic to Islamist terrorism, or something else (I never did quite get what you were accusing me of).

The demand of perfect morality in pursuit of the win gets in the way of the win. In hockey terms, I don't care if we now and again get a two minute minor, or an occasional high stick call.

I do. Much of the rest of the world certainly seems to. You can disregard those opinions as you please, but you can't pretend they have no consequences.

The win is the key, it is the aim, it is the goal.

There is such a thing as a Phyrric victory. We may very well be in the process of winning one.

-Jester