Should civilized nations use "Enhanced Interrogation" techni

[Occhidiangela]

Insofar as the excesses and wrongs committed (partly in pursuit of information, partly due to the breakdown of discipline) have been identified and fixed by the system itself, then that reflects well on the system. In almost all cases, the rule of law still governs the US, and both your country and the world is better for it.

Roughly, yes.

But if you say often enough that exceptions are going to be made, that this particular enemy, for whatever special pleading reason requires going beyond the rules, the rules will quickly cease to mean anything.

No, by your own point above on self correction, and below. ;)

This is not how the US has proceeded internally, and that is to their credit, even if the initial actions are not. I agree, not enough disciplinary action was taken, especially higher up the chain. If it is made clear that the only people who will suffer are the poor shmucks who do the dirty work, then that removes all credible deterrent for the brass not to order it, or not to look the other way when it happens.

We agree. Sadly, in politics, the McNamaras and Cheney's of the world don't get held to account. That is reality.

What goes on through rendition in places like Uzbekistan is another matter. The CIA is apparently willing to cross lines that the military is not.

So long as they are following guidelines and rules we Americans have in place, I don't much care whose nuts they fry. The problem is: are they breaking American law? If so, that must be addressed.

I do not believe torture has provided much useful intelligence.

Gien that neither you nor I are in teh business, and that professionals who have actually been involved both agree and disagree with you, what you believe isn't of much weight. Since a great deal of what General Hayden and ex VP Cheney assert was useful info is apparently still not in the public domain, we are left wondering, at best. That you are skeptical of them, given this being politics, is understandable.

Almost all of what we know about Al Qaeda, or its Iraqi namesake, has been obtained by other means.

I'd reopen the timeliness issue, but won't boher. Not enough time.;)

I'm a pacifist in approximately the sense that Russell was, although I don't agree with him about everything. Ends which can be accomplished without violence, should be.
I can agree with that without being a pacifist. I generallly do.

Ends that require violence can only be justified on grounds of necessity.

But maybe I'll ask this: is there anything you'll kill for?

I know what I'll kill for. I had to answer that, to myself, over a decade ago, or leave the service and sell my guns.

I did neither.

Occhi