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Pick up and serve yourself!?
02-25-2003, 08:39 PM
Post: #1
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Could anyone tell me the truth?

At times, I've found some members in my channel having what at least, could be considered "suspicious" (ehem...) conversations. Some of these were about scanners. The more or less, I'm aware of the use, mechanics and purpose of these scanning software (check if someone is legit, if he has dupes in his/her inventory... blah, blah, blah). I've read many posts on the Lounge about the subject, so you won't need to reply me with: "scanners are third party programs and you shouldn't use them" or "don't trust the scanner, it can be tricked, follow your instinct"... I'm back from the use of scanners, and somehow, I don't see them as legit stuff by now, and don't use them. I've also developed some "paranoid instinct" after a few open games in bnet, and have (I hope) that... :unsure: "shinning"? to notice ilegit players.
Ehem, having said ALL that, the questions:

There is the possibility of malicious use of these scanning software, am I wrong?. I mean, there are third party programs out there that allow malicious users to check, select, pick up and save items from my inventory, isn't it?, so... for these people, the very best of my well-earned inventory would be like those shelves at the supermarket, wouldn't it?...

I can "sense" the truth. I fear it... :(

Es fácil descender al infierno. De día o de noche, las puertas de la Muerte están abiertas de par en par; pero retornar, volver sobre tus pasos para llegar a la superficie... He aquí el auténtico desafío.

Virgilio, La Eneida
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02-25-2003, 09:40 PM
Post: #2
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Hi,

Since scanners read the contents of the memory image of the character file, there is no reason why they cannot copy any item from that file. Simply a matter of adding the appropriate code. And the code exists to do that, it is what is used to write items to item files in some of the backup programs.

So, yes it can easily be done. I've heard rumors that it has been done, but never checked it out myself. When I do play online, I either play with trusted friends or as a naked mage. So I have no real interest in what cheats are being used.

--Pete


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02-26-2003, 01:21 AM
Post: #3
Pick up and serve yourself!?
>so you won't need to reply me with: "scanners are third party programs and you shouldn't use them" or "don't trust the scanner, it can be tricked, follow your instinct"<

Actually, scanners dont work at all, countless players who use dupes themselves accused me of cheating, and said that their scanner sais that I have dupes....

As they stubbornly argued, i just showed them that that my ammy (wyrms of wizardry) isnt exactly the dragons of zodiac their scanners claims to be, or my thinking helm which they said was a demonspike helm, (yes there are helms, rings, ammys, and complete all body demonspike coats now......)

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02-26-2003, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-26-2003 09:07 AM by Thecla.)
Post: #4
Pick up and serve yourself!?
..and I never would, so I know nothing specific about the capabilities of what's out there, but scanners can definitely be used to read and dupe your items, although they can't change the stats of your original items. (This could be done even when you were re in channel and not in a game; at least it was certainly true for a long time that scanners could see your items -- and therefore copy them -- when you were just in a chat channel. I have no idea if that's still true.)

I still vividly remember a post on Ogden's Tavern maybe a month-and-a-half after D1 came out, not long after Enigma's trainer went public. (His trainer made a dump of the game memory, which turned out to include data for all the characters in the game, data that was not encyrypted like the data in the character files saved on the disk -- Enigma wasn't very complimentary about this oversight, not that it would have mattered in the long run.) The post went something like this:

Poster 1: This is just a warning to let you all know that it's possible to clone D1 characters.
Poster 2: You're full of it. That's impossible, and I should know, I'm a computer professional.
Poster 1: I'm a computer professional too. Join me in a game in half-an-hour and I'll prove it to you.
Poster 2: Ok.
Poster 2: I don't believe it -- you made an exact clone of my character. This is terrible. What does this mean for battle.net?
Poster 1: :(

Although I assume the standard scanners don't have these features, I suppose some malicious people could simulate the effects of black deaths/shrines etc to modify your life/mana/spell lvls etc. (unless you were running a cheat program yourself to protect your characters from such manipulations -- something I'd never recommend). I never heard of anything like this being done, even in the D1 heyday of townkill/autokill etc, but maybe what's helped things now is that most of the old hack programs were broken by v1.09, and D1 was by that time too small-potatoes for anyone to bother rebuilding them.

Edit p.s. probably, on reflection, other D1 players can't do anything permanently bad to your character: using hacks they can send huge amounts of damage, or umpteen lvl spells, your way; basically anything that it's possible for one player to do to another -- personally, I don't know enough about the detailed programing to say exactly what info is sent from one player's computer to another.
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02-26-2003, 09:41 AM (This post was last modified: 02-26-2003 09:44 AM by the Langolier.)
Post: #5
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Az3ar,Feb 26 2003, 01:12 AM Wrote:As they stubbornly argued, i just showed them that that my ammy (wyrms of wizardry) isnt exactly the dragons of zodiac their scanners claims to be, or my thinking helm which they said was a demonspike helm, (yes there are helms, rings, ammys, and complete all body demonspike coats now......)
Wyrms of Wizardry? Try again. That doesn't exist in multiplayer. And BTW, scanners do indeed work. Each item in diablo has a unique code that contains all the information about it. This is how the game knows what the item you equip does, as well as detect duplicate items, etc. The theory of scanners is simple: they look into diablos memory and report back all the information of a character. They also usually check to make sure values are in valid ranges, and some compare the unique item code to a list of "commonly duped items" - which I don't think is accurate anyways.

Sometimes hacks can make items drop more frequently, or force better drops. Often times, however, these hacks generate faulty unique item codes, which report incorrect information to other users. It is not uncommon for these hacks to produce unique items with incorrect qlvls, so this might cause your thinking cap to show up.

In the end, scanners are not very accurate, and really turn out to be useless if you are trying to judge someones legitimacy (although I do have to say that whoever coded them must have been very extensive to provide checks for all the rules for item generation. If you have glanced Jaralf's guide you would know how confusing it can be). They follow their parameters perfectly, but the problem is that is would be virtually impossible to set up initial parameters that worked for EVERY specific case (player) out there. Happy posting.

--Lang

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02-26-2003, 11:10 AM
Post: #6
Pick up and serve yourself!?
the Langolier,Feb 26 2003, 09:32 AM Wrote:Wyrms of Wizardry?&nbsp; Try again.&nbsp; That doesn't exist in multiplayer.
Wyrm's is a Hellfire prefix, much like Dragon's and Drake's with a +mana range of 61-80.

...

But, like stated, it only occurs in Hellfire and only on staves. A Wyrm's Amulet of Wizardry certainly wouldn't exist.

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When beset by doubt,
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Wave your arms and shout.

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02-27-2003, 01:40 AM (This post was last modified: 02-27-2003 01:59 AM by Az3ar.)
Post: #7
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Lol, actually, I dont remember the exact prefix, but it was one of the mana adders (not dragons though, of wizardry, played too much D2 I guess)...

Edit: enyway, it doesnt matter, because I made that char a NM a long time ago.....

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02-27-2003, 11:44 AM
Post: #8
Pick up and serve yourself!?
First of all, thanks to all of you who have replied... even though you've confirmed my very worse fears. I should have figured out when that lil' ba... didn't show "any special interest" in trading none of my best gear for his newly found Gotter (he had all my gear at his reach anyway...) or when that other warrior "paused very frequently" in the dungeons, to not say or do "anything special". I wonder where my warrior's best gear may be by now, but in the other hand, it wasn't KSoHs or AFPMs, so I soppose that it'll be discarded ultimately, as these people's "race of weapons" progreses on. Also, as good veteran players know, I'll find equal or better equipment the sooner or the later, so I suppose there's no need to worry much about it, but still find this behaviour some... irritating? intrusive?. One MORE argument against the use scanners, I suppose, as they use the same techniques to spy in your inventory that the trainers do, but well... maybe I'm going a little out of the topic, and this has been argued a lot here at the lounge...

Pete has sugested playing with trusted friends or naked, so I suppose I'll have to take his advice and play SOLO or learn to play naked. I mean: after some scanning players here and there I learned that one of the reasons why you won't need a scanner here in Europe is that 99% of the players (I was to put 100%... hehe) are cheating you. You'd be surprised at how easy is for your most trusted (legit?) friends to find Obs/Zods, KSoHs or AFPMs (Griswold's Edge is also frequent). If I had ever created a "common dupes" list for that time I used the scanner, I wonder how many "100% legit" players in here would have come out using exactly the SAME equipment. It's just sad. I wonder if these people will ever notice that they're not playing at all (or learning to play better), being so "invincible" thanks to their duped equipment.

Well, at least, something positive has come out of this: I know now what's going out there, and I've found a place where people don't avoid straight answers...

Es fácil descender al infierno. De día o de noche, las puertas de la Muerte están abiertas de par en par; pero retornar, volver sobre tus pasos para llegar a la superficie... He aquí el auténtico desafío.

Virgilio, La Eneida
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02-28-2003, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 02-28-2003 12:40 PM by the Langolier.)
Post: #9
Pick up and serve yourself!?
>I wonder how many "100% legit" players in here would have come out using exactly the SAME equipment

I know how you feel about this. I myself have seen plenty of equipment that several characters carry, but all of them claim they found it, traded with a trusted friend, or something else. One in particular is this A fpm o S, rated 75 ac, +150% +8 to all. Its sad because that is actually a really good plate, but I am sure the original is long gone. I would guess this happens because some people rip it from the other character, then go trade with another legit in a different game - or give it away. The problem with scanners is that the new legit scans this guy with the ripped plate, and the scanner shows the plate is legit. So the guy accepts the trade.

The problem is that both characters with the plate acquired a "legit" plate that they both believe is fine. One traded fair and square, and the other one found it (perhaps). If they ever cross paths, neither will be quick to give it up because it is such a good item and they both think they got it through legit means.

If you aren't using the scanner, you might be more apt to use common sense. Who would trade you that plate for anything you could offer? Probably no one who didn't rip it - its way too good to trade it away. If one does use the scanner, however, they might be apt to take it for its word and not question whatsoever that the plate is ripped.

Another thing, it is possible to change the code of a given item so that is differs from the original, but because each has a different code, the game treats them as two UNIQUE items. They will not even destroy themselves when dropped on the ground together. This is obviously cheating. This means that a scanner would show both plates to be legit even if the copy and original are in the same game! When you evaluate the item based upon common sense instead of using a scanner, it will become immediately apparent that two identical items of high value and rarity with virtually never exist, so cheats have to have been used in one form or another.

A solution I have choosen to follow is playing as a purist instead of playing naked. This means that your character only uses items they find or buy themselves (what you consider to be found or bought yourself is a personal preference. Some say you can only use items that drop from enemies you killed yourself, or only buy what the vendors sell you personally). I am not too strict with the purity - I will let other players buy me items from Griswold if they get a good sale, or I can use anything that drops from enemies as long as I am down there helping clear the levels. For my mainstream characters I also allow them to swap items between themselves. This isn't really a variant by any means - just a system to be sure that everything you have is legit. Usually I am not too worried about people who steal items with trainers or the such. For one: you probably won't have great enough items to steal and use anyways, and two: if I ever do see a copy of my item in the future, I don't get too bothered because I know that I found it myself.

P.S. (OT) Does my avatar look gold? I was going for the tripple-dotted-golden-icon look from Diablo chat. Perhaps when photoshop behaves I will emboss three dots on the top.

--Lang

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02-28-2003, 03:43 PM
Post: #10
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Quote:Pete has sugested playing with trusted friends or naked, so I suppose I'll have to take his advice and play SOLO or learn to play naked. I mean: after some scanning players here and there I learned that one of the reasons why you won't need a scanner here in Europe is that 99% of the players

I have some extra options for you. First: you could try switching to USWest gateway and joining channel Diablo Retail DSF-1. The only problem I can see with that is that the peak time there is around 4-5am for most European countries, it's better at weekends though and it is visited by people all over the world so there's always a chance to finding someone for a good game there. Or - if you really want to stay on Europe, check out Diablo Retail CZE-1. A lot of legits reside there and although you won't understand their language too much, many of them speak english and are friendly for foreign people too, been there ;)

From Langoliers post
Quote:P.S. (OT) Does my avatar look gold? I was going for the tripple-dotted-golden-icon look from Diablo chat. Perhaps when photoshop behaves I will emboss three dots on the top.

It looks yellow to me. Maybe you should leave the pic as it is and try to make the frames a little darker, more gold.

-Cytrex
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02-28-2003, 05:43 PM
Post: #11
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Hello,

Another thing, it is possible to change the code of a given item so that is differs from the original, but because each has a different code, the game treats them as two UNIQUE items. They will not even destroy themselves when dropped on the ground together.

AFAIK, doing that would change the item into something else, propably instable and unusable.

Disclaimer for zero-tolerance readers:
I didn't test this, and didn't check the game code for it. It is the result of experience and deduction. It may be wrong, so use this information at your own risk.
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03-05-2003, 02:20 AM
Post: #12
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Some comments. yes, it is indeed as said no problem to compy someone else's items. I don't think scanners in general has that feature built in though.

You can't mess arround with another players character. I think in earlier versions that the hos of a game could, but that was changed.

I am really only aware of one scanner and that is Moe's. From what I know, it should work VERY well and reliable. The problem is the users of it that are not reliable or "working" well. Typically missunderstanding the info.

Also, the so called common dupe lists are really not that good idea. Sure, it is pretty much usefull, but due to how the game works, dupes are created constantly within the very same game. Usually it is gold or "no item" dupes, and when it is actual items it will often be unnoticed ones that are not good (it is always two or more items found on different, subseequent, levels). IN addition games started on the same time (with only second precision) are COMPLETE dupes of each other.

SInce the scanner also detect duped potions (for example shoped in town and they VERY often turn out as dupes), people mistake that too.

It is not possible to simply change the seed (the "code") of an item without morphing it. That would mean changing it to one that gives the exact same item which would basically be recreating it from scratch. I am not aware of any such wide spread program and was always amazed no one made one (Jamella finally did but for D2). It was dead simple to make a program that simply tried seeds until one was found that gave the desired item. I myself made such a program as part of seeing if I understood item creation correctly. It could basically test more than 100k seeds per second and it was thus easy to create ANY item in the game at will (I obviously never used it for other than testing purposes). I believe for example Crystalion did too and I know of at least one other person).

As for the permanent uniques, like Demonspike helm and such, the only reason it works is that for some strange reason (and I told Blizzard it would be trivial to fix it), the game will not match the unique with the base item it is supposed to belong to, if the base item is a quest item. Thus you simply base those unqiues on some quest item and presto, non morphing uniques of arbritary choise. That is the reason why you find such items for any item type except shields, there is no quest shields. That is also why most such helms for example has hiddden life steal, since they are often based on the undad crown and so on.

Hmm, probably forgot a few things I wanted to say :)

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03-05-2003, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2003 09:14 AM by the Langolier.)
Post: #13
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Zenda,Feb 28 2003, 09:34 AM Wrote:Another thing, it is possible to change the code of a given item so that is differs from the original, but because each has a different code, the game treats them as two UNIQUE items. They will not even destroy themselves when dropped on the ground together.

AFAIK, doing that would change the item into something else, propably instable and unusable.
(RE: Zenda)
No.

In most instances, this is correct. However, if there is an item that is not perfect quality, the unique item code can be changed by a single value and the "new" item will be identical to the original, but treated as a completely different item. For every item not perfect quality, there is one and only one sister code that can be used to essentially dupe the item - where each item can co-exist. For any other code that you try, the item will indeed be re-seeded by the game. Sometimes it will become another magical item, perhaps a different base type. Occasionally it will be normalized into a magic potion (potion with blue text and unusable) or something else very silly. I assure you, I have seen this effect and have actually done a lot of experimenting with it.

--Lang

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03-05-2003, 10:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2003 10:34 AM by Jarulf.)
Post: #14
Pick up and serve yourself!?
> However, if there is an item that is not perfect quality,

Are you by perfect meaning max values on stats? Then I don't see how that would matter. A perfect stat is not in anyway different from a non perfect stat.


>the unique item code

Are you refering to the seed of thew item? Or are you perhaps refering to the ilvl of the item? That would seem more probable though.


> can be changed by a single value


Changing the seed by a "single" value is the same as changing it to a completely other value, that is it yields a completely new item unless you manage to hit another seed that yields the exact same item, which is quite improbable :)


> and the "new" item will be identical to the original, but
>treated as a completely different item. For every item
>not perfect quality, there is one and only one sister
>code that can be used to essentially dupe the item -

I don't understand you at all here :)

Again perfect or not, there are actually TONS of seeds yielding the exact same item. There is possibly a few ilvl that would give the same item with the same seed, although I would not be so sure of it. Perhaps I am missunderstanding you in some way.


>where each item can co-exist. For any other code that
>you try, the item will indeed be re-seeded by the game.
>Sometimes it will become another magical item,
>perhaps a different base type.

I might mix up D2 and D1 here but I thought the base item was not recreated from the seed, but saved seperately. But that might be bad memory and mixup.

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03-05-2003, 09:22 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2003 09:22 PM by the Langolier.)
Post: #15
Pick up and serve yourself!?
>Are you by perfect meaning max values on stats? Then I don't see how that would matter. A perfect stat is not in anyway different from a non perfect stat.

I know what you are saying, but oddly this is the case. Note I am only talking about changing the given code of a single item.

>Changing the seed by a "single" value is the same as changing it to a completely other value, that is it yields a completely new item unless you manage to hit another seed that yields the exact same item, which is quite improbable :) Perfect or not, there are actually TONS of seeds yielding the exact same item.

Again, I am only talking about modifying the current item's code. Certainly identical items spawning from the game can have virtually infinite number of combinations of codes. However, modifying the current code will only generate a new item in some instances.

>Are you refering to the seed of thew item? Or are you perhaps refering to the ilvl of the item?

Both. The item's ilvl is embedded in the code, and this value can be changed within a small range so that the item will not regenerate in a game. Specifically, there is only one qlvl that an item can be changed to so it remains stable. For some reason, however, increasing or decreasing the ilvl of an item with perfect stats with ALWAYS cause the game to regenerate that given item.

It is possible in this manner to create a copy of an item that the game thinks is a completely different item. They will both be identical, save for the fact that one of the two copies will have a different ilvl (usually ilvl-1). For instance, I have had dupes of a Strange Short Sword of Haste (149%). Obviously this item would be difficult to find identical copies of. Both dupes were able to exits in the same game (even when dropped) because one of the copies had a modified ilvl that was greater than the other. As mentioned earlier, had the sword been a perfect 150%, this would not have been possible because changing the ilvl of the second sword would cause it to become instable (but I don't know why).

In this theory is how Godly Plates of the Whale exist and are stable. If you check the code for any GPoW out there, you will see it's ilvl > 60, which of course is not possible to acquire from the game. This is really the only invalid thing about them (not counting the price cap). I myself have managed to forge Holy Full Plate Mails. I have some items that are copies that I could show you if you want.

Anyways, I certainly don't use any of stuff from above, but it was kind of fun to experiment with different item codes and what they do. Actually, if anyone has any detailed information about an item's unique code, I would be very interested in knowing more about it, for instance, if an item's code is randomly generated, then how does it tell the game exactly what the item is and what values it has?

--Lang

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03-11-2003, 10:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2003 10:58 AM by Chaerophon.)
Post: #16
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Is there a list of any particularly common statistics on items that I could look up? I would imagine that at this point, duping is so prevalent on the realms that virtually all "elite" items of any statistical quality have been duped to some extent. I just got back into the original Diablo and during my first tour, I played very little multiplayer due to an exceptionally poor computer. Anyways, I have a friend from school, a nice guy, who used to play the game as well and he gave me a KSoH, (he hasn't played in quite some time, either) something that I definitely never had in single player. It's got pretty crappy stats (as far as they go;) ), they are FAR from perfect, but if I'm going to be playing with loungers, or anyone else worthy of my respect, I would really like to be legit. I appreciated the gift and was actually quite excited about it, I'd really like to be able to use it but... I've always had some fairly distinct principles about this stuff, so why stop now? Some help would be appreciated.

As you can see, I didn't get into the original to nearly the same extent that I was involved in DII, but I'm looking forward to it. I just don't want to level up a character and then run into one of you guys with a scanner who determines that I'm using a dupe and dismisses me out of hand :)

But whate'er I be,
Nor I, nor any man that is,
With nothing shall be pleased till he be eased
With being nothing.
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03-11-2003, 03:44 PM
Post: #17
Pick up and serve yourself!?
I would ask your friend if he played legit or not - and be skeptical still. Anyways, that is not a very rare item. It only becomes "more" rare trying to find it on a specific base item, usually a bastard sword (6-15 dmg). As long as you trust your friend's word, not to mention memory, you'll have to make the call on it. I don't think anyone is going to shun you if it turns out to be a dupe - and you disccard thereafter. The game would actually be more fun if you didn't accept it, or at least saved it until you are a higher level. IMO it is too powerful a weapon to use since birth.

*Just a thought: If the KSoH is indestructible, there is a good chance that is it a common dupe, seeing as the majority of dupes are. While there is a way to make items indestructable, it isn't so easy, so very few legit items will be indestructible, although you may see items with very high dur. values.

As for scanners, I don't think too many people here use them on a regular basis. And when people are so hopelessly dependent upon a scanner and follows it by heart - well that is just a pity.

--Lang

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03-11-2003, 07:57 PM
Post: #18
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Well, it's base damage is only 4-12, and it's not indestructible and its only got 24 durability. I used it for a bit, but since I'm extremely poor, I don't figure that I'll be able to afford the repair costs anyways :) Don't worry, I don't plan on using it until at least level 20 anyways. It certainly does make a difference though!

Thanks for the response, it puts my mind at ease :)

But whate'er I be,
Nor I, nor any man that is,
With nothing shall be pleased till he be eased
With being nothing.
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03-11-2003, 08:27 PM
Post: #19
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Lets see. And I should remember we talk about D1, not D2 :)

Sorry if my answer might seem confused at some point. I messed up when quoting and appearantly forgot some parts of your text and later added it back with comments. So it might appear I answer womthing twice or missed something you wrote. Sorry if that is the case.

>>Are you by perfect meaning max values on stats? Then I don't see how that would matter. A perfect stat is not in anyway different from a non perfect stat.

>I know what you are saying, but oddly this is the case.
>Note I am only talking about changing the given code
>of a single item.

Again, if the code refers to the seed, a change will often give a completely different item, regardless of what the seed was. Perhaps you could give an actual example of a situation you refer to with the perfect stat.



>>Changing the seed by a "single" value is the same as changing it to a completely other value, that is it yields a completely new item unless you manage to hit another seed that yields the exact same item, which is quite improbable :) Perfect or not, there are actually TONS of seeds yielding the exact same item.

>Again, I am only talking about modifying the current
>item's code. Certainly identical items spawning from
>the game can have virtually infinite number of
>combinations of codes. However, modifying the current
>code will only generate a new item in some instances.

For almost all types of items in the game, it will generate a different item since the mods (like the affixes and their specific values) are NOT stored seperately. They are "stored" as a seed that will regenerate the exact same item each time you start a game. A different seed (unless it happens to be one of those that would generate the same item but that is VERY small chance you find one) will indeed be a different item since that is how the game generate the item to start with.

Again, all assuming by "code" you mean the seed and not some other value of the item.


>>Are you refering to the seed of thew item? Or are you perhaps refering to the ilvl of the item?

>Both.

Ahh, but you must be VERY carefull with what you mean here. The ilvl and the seed is two COMPLETELY different aspects. The ilvl simply set some limits on the affixes to be picked, it does not involve the random ness. So obviously it will in many cases not affect the final item if changed by just 1 in value or so (although it might generate a different one). However, the seed will ALWAYS yield a new item.


> The item's ilvl is embedded in the code,

It is a seperate value from the seed. I think that by "code" you might actually mean the whole data saved for an item, but I am not sure).


> and this value can be changed within a small range so
>that the item will not regenerate in a game.

Items ALWAYS regenerate. It might just be that the item is the exact same one even if the ilvl changes slightly.

> Specifically, there is only one qlvl that an item can be
>changed to so it remains stable.


qlvl? The qlvl are fixed values for base items, affixes and such. They are not changable, saved or any such thing.

> For some reason, however, increasing or decreasing
>the ilvl of an item with perfect stats with ALWAYS cause
>the game to regenerate that given item.


I am sceptical (see below at the end). By the way, what do you mean by "perfect"?

>It is possible in this manner to create a copy of an item
>that the game thinks is a completely different item.
>They will both be identical, save for the fact that one of
>the two copies will have a different ilvl (usually ilvl-1).

Ahh, yes, in some cases that is perfectly possible, but you were constantly refering to the "code" which is impossible to interpret as the ilvl :)

Still, the items are not identical if the ilvl is different :) And in many cases it WILL generate a different item.


>For instance, I have had dupes of a Strange Short
>Sword of Haste (149%). Obviously this item would be
>difficult to find identical copies of. Both dupes were
>able to exits in the same game (even when dropped)
>because one of the copies had a modified ilvl that was
>greater than the other.

BUt then they are not dupes. Dupes are identical items. If the ilvl differ, they are not dupes, even if they happen to have the exact same mods. Just you can have tons of potions that are not dupes (although the chance is relatively higher for various reasons), you can have the exact same mods on items with the same seed but slightly different ilvl or with the same ilvl and the same seed (it is just harder to find the correct seeds).

It is trivial (and as I said, Jamella did it for D2 in a released program, I and some others I know experiemented with it by our own in D1) to search seeds automatically en masse until you find one that generate the item you want. I can run my program (if I still have it) and genereat hundrads if not thousands of Strange SHort swords of haste (with 149%) with the same ilvl but varying seeds. It do require trial and error of millions upon millions of seeds though.

> As mentioned earlier, had the sword been a perfect
>150%, this would not have been possible because
>changing the ilvl of the second sword would cause it to
>become instable (but I don't know why).

No offense, but I don't buy this, the actual value of an affix is generated the same weather it is perfect or not. The ilvl in particular has nothing to do with the prefectness or not of stats.

>In this theory is how Godly Plates of the Whale exist
>and are stable.

No, they are stable since it is a valid item as far as the game is concerned. it just never generate it itself since it requires an ilvl higher than the game itself will make at those places it would otherwise be possible. Again, ONe can generate hundrads and perhaps thousands of non dupe GPoW (with the same ilvl) all stable and of any stat. Those with non perfect stats would not be less stable.

> If you check the code for any GPoW out there, you will
>see it's ilvl > 60, which of course is not possible to
>acquire from the game.

Exactly.

>This is really the only invalid
>thing about them (not counting the price cap).

Well, it is only "invalid" in so far that the game don't generate items with that ilvl at the palces were thoat item type and affixes are possible. The game DO generate items with that ilvl though. So it is not an invalid item in that aspect. Still, what does this have to do with perfectness since you said that was the reason they were stable, or did I missunderstand you?


> I myself
>have managed to forge Holy Full Plate Mails. I have
>some items that are copies that I could show you if you
>want.

If it is to show me it is possible, no need, I know exactly (well more or less, long time ago) what is possible and not and can also generate any item I want should I so desire :) Thanks for the offer though. Still, what I am wondering about is the so called perfectness. THAT would be something that would be interesting to see shown. That an item with perfect stats are more likely to not change if you change the ilvl.

ONe thing possibly, by "perfect", you mean the numerical value of the affixes having the max value, right?


>Anyways, I certainly don't use any of stuff from above,
>but it was kind of fun to experiment with different item
>codes and what they do.

Well, I have (or had, I have forgot much although I have notes left somewere I think) basically full understanding and knowledge of how the game generate and regenerate items (that is how I managed to write my Guide :) ). I can't say I am that skilled in possible ways to cheat and hack items though since I have focused on what the game actually do, although that give some knowledge of what is possible and not and how the game would treat non real items.


> Actually, if anyone has any
>detailed information about an item's unique code,

Again, we need to lear out the terminology here. That is, what exact value or property is meant by "code", the seed or the ilvl? As for the ilvl, my Guide actually cover how it is used. As for the seed, it is just for the games random number generator. The actual exact process the game goes through in creating an item is more or less possible to figure out by my guide, although not in the details of course :) which probably is what you are looking for.


> I
>would be very interested in knowing more about it, for
>instance, if an item's code is randomly generated, then
>how does it tell the game exactly what the item is and
>what values it has?

The seed is a random valie, the ilvl is a property that is based on the monsters level (if the item comes from a monster) and is not random. The game then proceeds (if I recall correctly) to pick the base item. Possible base items depend on the ilvl. It then pick one at random (usually with equal probability for all but see my Guide). It is the seed AFTER this selection of base item that is saved along with the item type. So the item type is not regenerated.

Next it do some random rolls to check the quality of the item (magic or not, unique or not?) and then some more to see if it should have a prefix, a suffix or both.

To pick affixes, it builds a list of the possible ones based on the ilvl and the type of item (see my guide for which are possible for a given ilvl) and then again pick one of them at random. If for example there are 10 possible affixes, it creates a random number in the range of 0-9 and pick the affix corresponding to it.

Now if the ilvl changes, it will at times change the number of possible affixes, in that case the item will morph as a different one will be picked (note, if the random value in the 0-9 range is 5 or 9 does not at ALL say anything about the value should you instead pick a value in the range of 0-10).

So, some changes in the ilvl will cause a new affix, some not (changes might also affect if the item is actually magic or not if I recall correctly although a small change might not change it much).

Finally it pick a random value for the affix numerical value. If it is the same affix, it typically keep the same value as well.

So, as can be seen, the most probable cause of morphing when you change the ilvl is that the ammount of affixes change. As long as it doesn't change (or even if it changes we might get lucky and get the same one picked, after all, for arround 10 affixes, if we get 11, there is still a 1 in 11 that it picks the same one) the item will not morph.

I think the game compare the seed, the ilvl and the item type to see if an item is a dupe or not by the way, although I can recall wrong there.


Feel free to ask more about it if you want.

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03-12-2003, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2003 06:39 AM by the Langolier.)
Post: #20
Pick up and serve yourself!?
Sorry about the confusing terms, but I am sure whichever one you think is appropriate is the one that I mean. I guess what I am talking about is hard <for me> to explain, so I'll just give you an example:

Awesome Full Plate Mail of the Stars - I came across these two plates over b.net not too long ago with the exact same stats, so I logged them:
<copied directly from log file>

Pack03 01:1C24BE91D3:46 Awesome Plate of the stars 75_80(90) +150%ac +8a R90s
...
Pack19 01:1D24BE91D3:46 Awesome Plate of the stars 75_80(90) +150%ac +8a R90s

APoS - 75 base AC, +150% AC, +8 to all attributes (90 duribility).

Explanation: Obviously, these two items were dupes. It is virtually impossible that two identical plates of this caliber have been found. I checked the value you see above (01:1D24BE91D3:46). This is what I was refering to as the "code" Jarulf, perhaps its better to call it an ID? Notice how these two ID's differ by a single value. Through some experimentation, I learned the the bold sections of the ID (one byte) refer to the ilvl of the plate. On the first plate, the ilvl = 29. The second has an identical ID, except for the fact that it its ilvl = 28. I then took the first plate alone, and edited its code in an editor - changing byte 04 (ilvl) from 1C to 1D. I loaded it in a game, then created a new one to see what happened. The edited plate did not morph into a new item; it was stable. Both were able to exist in the same game without destroying each other. Ofcourse, this is no suprise condisering their ID's are different. So what we have here is essentially a duplicate item that the game doesn't treat as one.

I have tried other values for the ilvl on this item, such as ilvl = 30 (1E), but in a new game the item morphed into something else: I think it turned into a sapphire FPM IIRC. Also, raising this value to 60 or above can yeild the Holy/Godly full plates, etc.

By perfect, I mean that the specific value of the prefix/suffix is the highest for that given range. For instance, the prefix on this plate is "perfect" because it raises the AC by 150%, which is the highest possible value for the "awesome" range. It seemed to me from the above example that you could change ANY item (save uniques) by a single ilvl to effectively copy it. I tried this on a few other items, to see what would happen. For any item that is not already ilvl = 30, it usually works. I found out, however, that when an item had perfect stats, the item would be regenerated no matter what you changed the ilvl to. For example, if the plate above were 75 AC +150% +11 to all attributes (11 being the highest value for "of stars"), then changing the ilvl on the original plate to any value would cause the item to morph in a new game.

It is interesting to change the ilvl to different values to see what you can get. It is like the prize in a cracker-jacks box. You can't pick and choose what you want this way though, like you can :)

Anyways, I hope that cleared up some of my confusions. Also, I guess you don't have to believe that there were actually two plates - after all it would be easy enough to type a C instead of a D - but you'll just have to trust me :)

--Lang

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