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question about bows in diablo 1
04-15-2011, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2011 07:45 AM by LPL2004.)
Post: #1
question about bows in diablo 1
I mostly play counter strike source and diablo 2 now but was thinking on diablo 1 recently...

my geocities website used to have an excel graph comparing the damage per second of the best bows in this game

I was wondering what the best bows in this game still were?

namely

does kings long war bow of swiftness exist?

I was thinking that would be the best damage bow in the game if it does exist

followed by like windforce (after some other swiftness bows)

and some people would use emerald bows of swiftness I believe since that was a better prefix then obsidian?

I forget now

If anyone could clarify that would be cool

or is the best bow massive bow of swiftness?

in terms of damage?

I forget which prefixes and suffixes can exist together on bows

but if someone knows please enlighten me

I plan to search for dps comparisons of bows from diablo 1 if any guides still exist for this game as well to maybe make another spreadsheet / graph comparing bows
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04-15-2011, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2011 08:07 AM by LPL2004.)
Post: #2
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/File:Overa...-Graph.gif

I want to make a graph like this but obviously for diablo 1

not diablo 2
more on this:

I now realise I guess that since "of swiftness" is not as high of an ilvl suffix as "of haste" that kings can not exist as a prefix for it? unless I missed something.

so massive/swiftness is the best damage bow in the game

I also found this:

"
Because the quality level of the prefix 'massive' is exactly twice the quality level of the suffix 'swiftness,' this would be a very difficult item to find in the dungeon. There are only a few types of monsters that have a high enough level to generate massive as a prefix but not too high to be out of the range of swiftness...

So if you're dying to get this bow your best bet is to start a new character (and if you do, make sure you settle for nothing less than a perfect spawn of massive which is +110% damage). Don't be discouraged, the same thing happened to me. By the time I really sat down to analyze bows I was already well beyond the level where I could buy the mbos. So I just got along without it.

Another note...if you take into account the average damage per arrow, the difference between the massive bow of swiftness and most other end game bows is probably not going to translate to one less arrow that you would have to fire at a hell/hell blood knight or advocate. The faster speed just means you can move to the next target sooner and you may have to rest your finger more often =P
"
so windforce is probably just as useful as a perfect massive bow of swiftness but I like the fact that MBOS doesn't have KB

I like knock back in diablo 2 but not in diablo 1
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04-15-2011, 08:40 PM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2011 08:43 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #3
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
MBOS kills Windforce all day, especially in PvP, but PvM as well. I love my 107% one. But vs monsters, I prefer Emerald Heavens over everything else for a high end rogue. +15 all and being able to free up a jewel for mana is always a beautiful thing, you can use 2 Drag Zod jewels instead of just one. Elemental bows are fun too, though some hate the buggy dmg on them. They can be a nasty surprise weapon in duels, Ive been known to use Merciless Burning vs warriors sometimes Smile

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04-16-2011, 08:36 AM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2011 08:40 AM by Nystul.)
Post: #4
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
Trying to simplify everything down to a matter of DPS often misses a lot of considerations in games like this. Throughout most stages of the game, a rogue will be struggling to get enough damage per shot to interrupt the enemy and put them into hit recovery. This is one of your primary *defensive* abilities, so it is a very important consideration. So for the developing rogue, damage per shot tends to be more important than damage per second. If your bow of swiftness doesn't do enough damage to stun, you will spend more time running away from the enemy than shooting it.

On the flip side, the high level rogue with maxed stats may not really care how much damage her bow does. She may rather have a resist all bow so she can use a plain zodiac ring or a dragon's ring of something. Of heavens suffix will actually give a few points of damage to a high level rogue, but also helps to wear full plate, increases survivability, and increases magic chance to hit. But certainly at high levels where most of the damage is coming from *base* damage, a swiftness bow can mow enemies down slightly faster than the alternatives. Except of course, if you consider chain lightning as an alternative....

Windforce and bow of the bear have to be considered as a separate possibility. The knock back effect has to be played in a different way. The good news if you play a developing rogue with one of these bows is, you don't need to worry about the stun damage issue anymore. The problem is you need to line up your shots so that your arrows continue to hit the enemy after it is knocked back. For a high level character who will always stun anyway, this can be more annoying than beneficial, regardless of the big damage of Windforce.
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04-25-2011, 07:09 AM
Post: #5
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
Check this out:

http://replay.web.archive.org/2001022112...om/bow.htm

Most damage at lvl 50 is massive swiftness. However, you don't gain too much damage, therefore it might be better to get resists or +all on the bow instead. Also the massive swiftness is very difficult to find.

I like +dmg/ +all bows personally.

-Ell_man
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04-25-2011, 08:48 AM
Post: #6
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(04-25-2011 07:09 AM)Ell_man Wrote:  Also the massive swiftness is very difficult to find.

In a sense. Most characters are too high level to shop for it and don't item hunt in areas where it would drop. If one shops persistently at the appropriate level, a decent swiftness bow should be very easy to obtain. Trying to get one that is massive AND long war bow AND swiftness will be extremely difficult like any ideal item with 3 requirements. That is a really frustrating thing to try to force (still not nearly as bad as trying to get such an item from Wirt!). A nice bow of heavens can be bought by a high level character in the course of normal play or found in the hell levels in the course of normal play.
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05-12-2011, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 05-13-2011 06:31 PM by Mahida.)
Post: #7
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(04-15-2011 07:57 AM)LPL2004 Wrote:  Because the quality level of the prefix 'massive' is exactly twice the quality level of the suffix 'swiftness,' this would be a very difficult item to find in the dungeon. [...]
So if you're dying to get this bow your best bet is to start a new character (and if you do, make sure you settle for nothing less than a perfect spawn of massive which is +110% damage).

Does Diablo use "fractional damage"? If it only uses the integers displayed, then there are only three categories of massive LWB:
Dam +damage%
1-27 93-99
2-28 100-107
2-29 108-110
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05-14-2011, 06:27 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2011 07:07 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #8
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-12-2011 07:03 PM)Mahida Wrote:  
(04-15-2011 07:57 AM)LPL2004 Wrote:  Because the quality level of the prefix 'massive' is exactly twice the quality level of the suffix 'swiftness,' this would be a very difficult item to find in the dungeon. [...]
So if you're dying to get this bow your best bet is to start a new character (and if you do, make sure you settle for nothing less than a perfect spawn of massive which is +110% damage).

Does Diablo use "fractional damage"? If it only uses the integers displayed, then there are only three categories of massive LWB:
Dam +damage%
1-27 93-99
2-28 100-107
2-29 108-110

This is correct, although Massive starts at 96 rather than 93. My rogue has a 107, and does -1 from max dmg possible that a level 50 rogue can get.

That said, Massive Swift does the most damage PER unit of time, but not the most raw damage overall. Windforce doesn't do the most raw dmg either, contrary to popular belief, a Merciless Burning or Thunder LWB can exceed it (figures are for a level 50 rogue wearing Royal Circlet, perfect stars armor, and perfect zodiac jewelry, bows are all LWB...for a rogue wearing Gotter, add 5 pts dmg at both ends):

Emerald Bow of the Heavens: 125-138
Massive Bow of Swiftness: 118-145
Windforce: 119-158
Merciless Burning: 119-170 (includes the 1-16 fire dmg, which isnt shown on the char screen) Smile
Merciless Thunder: 119-174 (1-20, though Burning actually has a higher dmg potential because of the elemental bug, which is multiplied up to 9 x on Burning bows, only 7 x for Thunder)

Merciless elemental bows are truly lethal, ive killed a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow before in duels, using my Merc Burning. Pretty rare for this to occur, but its possible.

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05-14-2011, 05:20 PM
Post: #9
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  This is correct, although Massive starts at 96 rather than 93.

You are right, but my point remains valid: A brutal LWB of swiftness with +93% does excactly the same damage as a massive LWB of swiftness with +99%.

Another thing:
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Merciless Burning: 119-170 (includes the 1-16 fire dmg, which isnt shown on the char screen) Smile
Merciless Thunder: 119-174 (1-20, though Burning actually has a higher dmg potential because of the elemental bug, which is multiplied up to 9 x on Burning bows, only 7 x for Thunder)

Merciless elemental bows are truly lethal, ive killed a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow before in duels, using my Merc Burning. Pretty rare for this to occur, but its possible.
How is this possible? With the numbers you've given the max damage should be 174+9*16=314. In that case it would take two arrows to kill the warrior.
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05-15-2011, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-15-2011 05:45 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #10
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-14-2011 05:20 PM)Mahida Wrote:  
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  This is correct, although Massive starts at 96 rather than 93.

You are right, but my point remains valid: A brutal LWB of swiftness with +93% does excactly the same damage as a massive LWB of swiftness with +99%.

Another thing:
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Merciless Burning: 119-170 (includes the 1-16 fire dmg, which isnt shown on the char screen) Smile
Merciless Thunder: 119-174 (1-20, though Burning actually has a higher dmg potential because of the elemental bug, which is multiplied up to 9 x on Burning bows, only 7 x for Thunder)

Merciless elemental bows are truly lethal, ive killed a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow before in duels, using my Merc Burning. Pretty rare for this to occur, but its possible.
How is this possible? With the numbers you've given the max damage should be 174+9*16=314. In that case it would take two arrows to kill the warrior.

Me and a friend of mine who did some tests had an interesting discussion about this some time ago. The formula you posted is indeed correct, but during our tests we noticed the elemental dmg seemed to be greatest when the rogue was above the idle target about 4 tiles away. The elemental dmg would occasionally break through the shield and the dmg resulting produced numbers considerably larger than the maximum 314 that was thought possible, though indeed the average typically was in the 250's. My only guess is that these bows have another intrinsic element in the bug involving a doubling of the actual dmg received (similar to a warriors critical hit) that can occur from time to time (if very rarely). At other angles, getting over the 300 mark seemed to be rare, compared to the rogue hitting an idle target from above or a moving target that was walking the same line toward the rogue when below. At any rate, these bows are very unpredictable which can make them quite fun to use in both PvM and PvP, though in PvP id only use them vs. a warrior.

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05-16-2011, 11:55 AM
Post: #11
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-12-2011 07:03 PM)Mahida Wrote:  Does Diablo use "fractional damage"?
Yes. Jarulf 1.3 says "When doing calculations, you should generally round down any number you get, as that is the way Diablo and Hellfire works. However, life, mana ,HP, and damage are actually kept track of with higher precision than shown and should not be rounded down."
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05-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Post: #12
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-15-2011 05:43 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  At any rate, these bows are very unpredictable

True, but not in a way you seem to imply. The reason you can get much higher damage as 314 is because the used formula is not correct.

For elemental bows, damage is applied in 2 steps. First comes the normal damage, which is character damage (based on level and stats) plus physical weapon damage (including any bonus from Merciless and the like). Then, a number of elemental attacks are processed (9 for fire and 7 for lightning, as stated). Each of these attacks require a separate check for hitting the target, and as a result, total damage can be very little or even nothing. The damage from each elemental attack is character damage plus elemental weapon damage, which is far more as just the elemental damage, ofcourse. So, for level 50 rogues using a big merciless burning bow, maximum total damage could well be over 1000. Shooting warriors like that can hardly be called dueling, if you ask me Wink

The direction of the shot does matter, but only in such a way that certain angles cause the elemental damage to be applied on the wrong tile, resulting in no elemental target-damage at all. In a similar way, a target might get struck by elemental damage even if the shot missed, when that target is standing before a wall.
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05-24-2011, 02:23 AM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2011 11:14 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #13
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-23-2011 06:57 PM)Zenda Wrote:  
(05-15-2011 05:43 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  At any rate, these bows are very unpredictable

True, but not in a way you seem to imply. The reason you can get much higher damage as 314 is because the used formula is not correct.

For elemental bows, damage is applied in 2 steps. First comes the normal damage, which is character damage (based on level and stats) plus physical weapon damage (including any bonus from Merciless and the like). Then, a number of elemental attacks are processed (9 for fire and 7 for lightning, as stated). Each of these attacks require a separate check for hitting the target, and as a result, total damage can be very little or even nothing. The damage from each elemental attack is character damage plus elemental weapon damage, which is far more as just the elemental damage, ofcourse. So, for level 50 rogues using a big merciless burning bow, maximum total damage could well be over 1000. Shooting warriors like that can hardly be called dueling, if you ask me Wink

The direction of the shot does matter, but only in such a way that certain angles cause the elemental damage to be applied on the wrong tile, resulting in no elemental target-damage at all. In a similar way, a target might get struck by elemental damage even if the shot missed, when that target is standing before a wall.

From the extensive tests and duels (of which ive literally done thousands), I dont see this being plausible. If the elemental dmg was administered in this fashion, I would be getting 1-hit kills left and right but this is a verrrrrrry rare occurrence. Typical dmg with the bug is anywhere from the mid 200's to maybe 450, with 600+ dmg being recorded once in a blue moon. Dmg of 1k would imply that a level 50 rogue could break a the mana shield of a sorc with 1k mana/max resists in 2 hits, and i have never had this in my duels, or heard of this occurring in any instances involving other PvP players. I do think this would be possible if the -33% dmg provided by mana shield was null in PvP, but it is there so thats irrelevant. My guess, from years of experience and doing tens of thousands of duels, is that max dmg for these bows on a clvl 50 rogue is in the 650 neighborhood, and this in itself has a very very small probability of happening. 300-400 is not uncommon though, and can be more than enough to bring down a warrior that is trying to heal or is slow to pot.

Some warrior duelers do indeed hate these bows because of their potentially high dmg and unpredictable nature, but truth be told, I only recommend using these bows if you are experienced in PvP. A warrior has to be more wary due to the extreme dmg of these bows, but the rogue has to be even more careful because the lack of fast attack gives her less control over the warriors freedom of movement, meaning it is easier for him to get teleports in, time his healing, or even walk to the rogue using a 'bob and weave' movement if the distance is close enough. Massive Swiftness is certainly a much safer choice against most warriors, it allows the rogue to suppress his offense more. In general though, warrior has the upperhand in RvW either way, but elemental bows in the hands of an experienced rogue dueler is not to be taken lightly.

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05-24-2011, 10:18 AM
Post: #14
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  That said, Massive Swift does the most damage PER unit of time, but not the most raw damage overall. Windforce doesn't do the most raw dmg either, contrary to popular belief, a Merciless Burning or Thunder LWB can exceed it (figures are for a level 50 rogue wearing Royal Circlet, perfect stars armor, and perfect zodiac jewelry, bows are all LWB...for a rogue wearing Gotter, add 5 pts dmg at both ends):

Emerald Bow of the Heavens: 125-138
Massive Bow of Swiftness: 118-145
Windforce: 119-158
Merciless Burning: 119-170 (includes the 1-16 fire dmg, which isnt shown on the char screen) Smile
Merciless Thunder: 119-174 (1-20, though Burning actually has a higher dmg potential because of the elemental bug, which is multiplied up to 9 x on Burning bows, only 7 x for Thunder)

Merciless elemental bows are truly lethal, ive killed a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow before in duels, using my Merc Burning. Pretty rare for this to occur, but its possible.
To nitpick: When comparing a Merciless Burning/Thunder, note that you assume the target has no resistances. This isn't wrong. But if you assume full resists then a Merciless Burning does 118-158 and the Merciless Thunder does 118-159--I just back calculated from your numbers, but I trust your numbers are good. It's only a minor difference, but the comparison with Windforce is slightly affected (Merciless Burning is slightly weaker and Merciless Thunder ties). What does a Savage LWB Heavens do?

Of course, with the elemental bug things are far different.
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05-24-2011, 06:49 PM
Post: #15
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-24-2011 02:23 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Dmg of 1k would imply that a level 50 rogue could break a the mana shield of a sorc with 1k mana/max resists in 2 hits, and i have never had this in my duels, or heard of this occurring in any instances involving other PvP players.

You said yourself that killing a 600 HP warrior with a single arrow is very rare. That makes killing a 1000 MP sorcerer with just 2 arrows both possible and unlikely, is it not?

Anyway, the damage mechanism for elemental bows is well known, and fully described in Jarulf's Guide. Doing 10000 duels won't change the facts.
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05-24-2011, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2011 11:37 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #16
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-24-2011 06:49 PM)Zenda Wrote:  
(05-24-2011 02:23 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Dmg of 1k would imply that a level 50 rogue could break a the mana shield of a sorc with 1k mana/max resists in 2 hits, and i have never had this in my duels, or heard of this occurring in any instances involving other PvP players.

You said yourself that killing a 600 HP warrior with a single arrow is very rare. That makes killing a 1000 MP sorcerer with just 2 arrows both possible and unlikely, is it not?

Anyway, the damage mechanism for elemental bows is well known, and fully described in Jarulf's Guide. Doing 10000 duels won't change the facts.

I dont care if Jarulf's was written by God himself. Ive done tens of thousands times more duels than he has over the years, so id say my opinion/expertise on this particular matter holds more weight. Im not interested in formulas, im interested in empirical evidence that can be proven in extensive practice, not theory. Furthermore, Jarulf's has been wrong on other accounts in the past.

And there is absolutely NO empirical evidence to support that killing a level 50 sorc with 1k+ mana points and max resists with an elemental bow is possible, due to the -33% dmg element of the mana shield spell. Period. And anyone who says otherwise, I want to see a VIDEO of this from view of BOTH participants recorded simultaneously, or else its duck tales as far as im concerned.

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05-24-2011, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2011 11:20 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #17
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-24-2011 10:18 AM)weakwarrior Wrote:  
(05-14-2011 06:27 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  That said, Massive Swift does the most damage PER unit of time, but not the most raw damage overall. Windforce doesn't do the most raw dmg either, contrary to popular belief, a Merciless Burning or Thunder LWB can exceed it (figures are for a level 50 rogue wearing Royal Circlet, perfect stars armor, and perfect zodiac jewelry, bows are all LWB...for a rogue wearing Gotter, add 5 pts dmg at both ends):

Emerald Bow of the Heavens: 125-138
Massive Bow of Swiftness: 118-145
Windforce: 119-158
Merciless Burning: 119-170 (includes the 1-16 fire dmg, which isnt shown on the char screen) Smile
Merciless Thunder: 119-174 (1-20, though Burning actually has a higher dmg potential because of the elemental bug, which is multiplied up to 9 x on Burning bows, only 7 x for Thunder)

Merciless elemental bows are truly lethal, ive killed a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow before in duels, using my Merc Burning. Pretty rare for this to occur, but its possible.
To nitpick: When comparing a Merciless Burning/Thunder, note that you assume the target has no resistances. This isn't wrong. But if you assume full resists then a Merciless Burning does 118-158 and the Merciless Thunder does 118-159--I just back calculated from your numbers, but I trust your numbers are good. It's only a minor difference, but the comparison with Windforce is slightly affected (Merciless Burning is slightly weaker and Merciless Thunder ties). What does a Savage LWB Heavens do?

Of course, with the elemental bug things are far different.

118-154 is the on-screen number for my rogue, using an Merciless Burning with 173% (same dmg as 175), stars plate with +11, RC, and 3 perfect Zods. But the 118-154 dmg doesnt include the 1-16 fire dmg, which is where i came up with the 170. This of course doesnt include any "bug" dmg, just normal elemental dmg and assumption the target has max resists. If the target has 0 or low resists, the dmg of course will be much greater.

Savage Heavens LWB....according to my calculations would be 126-154 with the same setup? Slightly higher I guess than a plain Merciless LWB. The 15 all gives 7 points dmg to both ends, and if im not mistaking a perfect Savage gives 2 points dmg more on the max end than a perfect Massive, same minimum dmg though.

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05-25-2011, 02:06 AM
Post: #18
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-24-2011 10:49 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  I dont care if Jarulf's was written by God himself.
I'm pretty sure it was.
(05-24-2011 10:49 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Ive done tens of thousands times more duels than he has over the years, so id say my opinion/expertise on this particular matter holds more weight.
I'm not sure the number of duels is the relevant metric here.
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05-25-2011, 02:39 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2011 02:41 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #19
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
Well, im an atheist anyways Smile

But id be willing to run some tests and see if it's possible for 2 elemental arrows to kill a lvl 50 sorc with above 1k mana and max resists, though I already know it is not possible, regardless of what Jarulf's formula may be. I like JG as much as the next dude but to think it is 100% accurate word for word from start to finish, is crazy talk, cause its not. If someone can prove me wrong in a series of conducted tests with my Sorc (doesnt even have to be duels), ill give them a free Obsidian Zod jewel and an Awesome Stars full plate (yes, with good stats).

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05-25-2011, 10:12 AM
Post: #20
RE: question about bows in diablo 1
(05-25-2011 02:39 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  If someone can prove me wrong in a series of conducted tests with my Sorc (doesnt even have to be duels), ill give them a free Obsidian Zod jewel and an Awesome Stars full plate (yes, with good stats).

Apparantly, nowadays some people think they need to be convinced personally, before they will accept established facts. Regardless if it's about climate change, or game mechanics Dodgy

First of all, I explained that maximum total damage from a single elemental bow shot could well be over 1000, but I didn't claim that this would make it possible to kill "a lvl 50 sorc with above 1k mana and max resists" in 2 hits. That was your own conclusion.

But, let's take a look at the numbers from your "tests". You claim to have killed "a lvl 50 warrior with 600 hp (with max resists and full life globe) with ONE arrow". For such a shot, assuming that physical damage was around 150, your total elemental damage had to be 4*(600-150), which is 1800 damage (which is really high, so I suspect your victim's resists were not really at maximum). This means that 2 shots could do 2*(150+1800), which is 3900. Given such numbers, it might be possible to kill your sorcerer in 2 hits. I'm not saying that it will ever happen, though, because chances for reaching the maximum damage are obviously very low. Also, a lot of other things might influence the result, like Manashield bugs and DFE reductions.
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