School spies on kids through student laptops

[LavCat]

Hi,
There are three issues here. The first is one of equity. I guess that it is a matter of how big a group you feel loyalty to, that you feel you belong to. If your 'kith and kin' only extends to your immediate neighborhood, then your attitude is understandable. If you embrace your country as a whole, then the fact that many inner city schools don't have basic supplies while some suburban schools give their students computers should bother you. And if you feel yourself to be a true member of humanity (I occasionally do) then the issue grows even bigger.

The second issue is one of boundaries. Where should the line be drawn? For instance, driving an automobile is a useful, indeed in some places an essential, skill. Should the school system be responsible for driver training? Should they supply instructors and vehicles? Should they give each student his or her own car? Even as a loan while they're learning to drive? What should the school system provide and what should the parents provide? And, from a social justice standpoint, doesn't it make sense that the school system should provide less and the parents more in the affluent areas? Most rich kids don't go to school hungry.

The third issue is whether giving kids technology is really to their advantage. A bit more on that below, but I'm pretty sure that teaching them how to think should take precedence over teaching them how to surf the net.
During the time calculators were coming into use, I was a TA at GaTech and then WSU. One of the things I noticed was that it was almost impossible to get the calculator users to make estimates of what the answer should be. Mistakes like hitting + when they meant to hit X would be overlooked, and a final answer that was off by orders of magnitude was accepted. The new GIGO: garbage in, gospel out (thanks, Stan Kelly-Bootle). Whatever the holy machine says must be true. Those using their heads were much less likely to do things like that.

In general, I think it may be better to teach people how to use their heads, at least at first, than to give them crutches. Sure, while doing elementary school math, using a calculator makes it easy. But if the need ever comes up to do real mathematics, involving derivations, proofs, etc., the need to stop every few seconds to punch "2 X 2 =" will seriously hamper the logical flow.

Perhaps extensive exposure to technology will improve their training, but I doubt it will enhanced their education.
Humm, some kids had calculators but people were still using slide rules -- makes it about the early seventies? I was able to get my first calculator around '75 when I was in grad school. I remember lusting after the HP35 as an undergraduate -- I actually got to hold one, once:)
Well, very belated congratulations. ;)

--Pete

I am in favor of the initiative of providing a laptop to every child on the planet, but that does not mean I am in a position to fund it. And yes, it is probably arbitrary to draw the limit to this planet. But as far as public schools, the one year I was in the public school system, the school provided everything that was necessary for the curriculum. That included books, paper, and ink for the inkwells. (I may be dating myself here.) I'm not sure that public schools should be the ones providing the laptops, but if laptops are part of the curriculum the school should provide the laptops.

I don't think public schools should provide driver education either, but if the tax payers want to fund driver education that should be their right. I have not had a vehicle for almost twenty years, so perhaps my perception on this is flawed. On the other hand, public schools should provide transportation to and from school.

I completely disagree that public schools should provide less and parents more in affluent districts. In any area there will be lower income families and this would place their children at a horrible disadvantage. Private schools are for where parents pay.

No I was not talking about the early 70's, you were off by about a decade.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . That included books, paper, and ink for the inkwells. (I may be dating myself here.) . . .

I was taught to use a fountain pen in grade school in New York, say '53 to '57. When I moved to Wilkes-Barre in Spring of '57, we were allowed to use pencils and ball point pens. So I'm guessing you're talking about that far back.

No I was not talking about the early 70's, you were off by about a decade.

Well, that means early '60s or early '80s. You were 14, so I suppose you were either in high school or close to starting. You also say that your high school banned calculators. That would have been redundant in the early '60s since, except for big machines and pepper grinders, there were no calculators. But by the early '80s I don't think much of anyone was still using slide rules -- by then $30 calculators were available. That's actually cheaper than the Post VersaLog slide rule of the same time.

So, when I put all that together, I make your age greater than twenty and less than eighty. I'm confused. <_<

--Pete

[roguebanshee]

Now having the math class teach how to use the calculator/program I can deal with, to an extent. It would me that calculator is rarely ever out, and should never be allowed a test still. I still think that is better taught in the domain of whatever the application of the language of mathematics is for, but I understand the practicalities that would want it taught in the math class.

When I went to school this was solved by having everyone doing two math exams, one for pure math skills where every type of tool except a pen, an eraser and a piece of paper were banned. The other was problem solving with calculators allowed, it was primarily about analysing each situation and presenting the solution in a structured manner, but getting a wrong result would still count against your score.

[LavCat]

Hi,
I was taught to use a fountain pen in grade school in New York, say '53 to '57. When I moved to Wilkes-Barre in Spring of '57, we were allowed to use pencils and ball point pens. So I'm guessing you're talking about that far back.
Well, that means early '60s or early '80s. You were 14, so I suppose you were either in high school or close to starting. You also say that your high school banned calculators. That would have been redundant in the early '60s since, except for big machines and pepper grinders, there were no calculators. But by the early '80s I don't think much of anyone was still using slide rules -- by then $30 calculators were available. That's actually cheaper than the Post VersaLog slide rule of the same time.

So, when I put all that together, I make your age greater than twenty and less than eighty. I'm confused. <_<

--Pete

Correct. Though I did not intend to be so cryptic. The one year I was in public school, which happened to be Lower Merion school district, was fourth grade: '57-'58 (1957-1958). I don't believe our pens were fountain pens, that's a whole 'nother level of technology. Hence the inkwells. However I do have a lovely blue Pelikan fountain pen I purchased in Stutgart in 2005.

School did not ban calculators, the chemistry teacher did. That was eleventh grade, 1964-1965. Calculators did exist, though we're not talking hand held here. I never had a calculator till grad school. I used an electro-mechanical calculator for biology, till I discovered its implementation of multiplication was not commutative. Specifically 9x7 did not equal 7x9. I prefered my abacus, myself.

I also never intended to get so far off topic.

[--Pete]

Hi,

However I do have a lovely blue Pelikan fountain pen I purchased in Stutgart in 2005.

Yes. Once one learns to use a fountain pen, a whole new world opens. The ability to write for hours without stress or pain. The only thing that has replaced it for me is the keyboard -- and if I could use a fountain pen with a computer, I would. I still have a Montblanc that Sue gave me years ago. Then again, I still have my Post VersaLog.;)

I prefered my abacus, myself.

Mine's out being restrung -- I hate it when all the beads slip to the center of the string.

I also never intended to get so far off topic.

This is the Lounge, right? So the conversations go where the conversations want to go. They're stray thoughts that, like cats, are not worth the trouble of rounding up. :P

--Pete

[roguebanshee]

I used an electro-mechanical calculator for biology, till I discovered its implementation of multiplication was not commutative. Specifically 9x7 did not equal 7x9.

How could anyone miss such a thing?

Was that "feature" intentionally introduced to that calculator to make people disregard electronic calculation?

[Skywing]

Other than the 42 times they admit for attempting to find lost or stolen ones. I priced out what I believe to be a better solution. It's a third party organization with a law enforcement background, and you don't have to worry about (true or false) charges of your admins peeping via the webcam.

You really don't want to use lojack. Unless you want to permanently rootkit your box into being exploitable by malware/MITM, that is.

[--Pete]

Hi,

How could anyone miss such a thing?

Was that "feature" intentionally introduced to that calculator to make people disregard electronic calculation?

It might well have been a problem with that individual machine. In '66 I went through a training course on the Friden Flexowriter (in Saigon -- don't ask:)) and although that was not a calculator, I discovered just how twitchy those old electro-magnetic machines could be. It is amazing that those machines were able to actually perform the calculations for the Manhattan project. I suspect that they required constant maintenance. Clutch pressures, spring tensions, cam angle adjustments, escapement timings. Gives me indigestion just remembering. :whistling:

--Pete

[Klaus]

Hi,
It might well have been a problem with that individual machine. In '66 I went through a training course on the Friden Flexowriter (in Saigon -- don't ask:)) and although that was not a calculator, I discovered just how twitchy those old electro-magnetic machines could be. It is amazing that those machines were able to actually perform the calculations for the Manhattan project. I suspect that they required constant maintenance. Clutch pressures, spring tensions, cam angle adjustments, escapement timings. Gives me indigestion just remembering. :whistling:

--Pete

I still have one of these: Otis King :)

[kandrathe]

You really don't want to use lojack. Unless you want to permanently rootkit your box into being exploitable by malware/MITM, that is.

Which was refuted by Absolute.

[kandrathe]

... I'm not sure that public schools should be the ones providing the laptops, but if laptops are part of the curriculum the school should provide the laptops.

Here where I work, where possible, we are moving toward zero-client devices and offering various desktop flavors (Mac, Windows, Linux) over IP. The price per unit is down under $100 retail, and in volume you can procure them for about 1/2 that. You still need a keyboard, screen, and a mouse, but they are pretty cheap and many home TV's are now VGA compatible. The lifespan of the solid state device is also much greater than a laptop, or even a desktop. Still, it's not "mobile" computing, which I think is an unneeded convenience for K-12 anyway. My TI-33 was as significant an investment when they first became available. There are many, many pluses for PC over IP.