My never having played thoughts

[swirly]

I'm making a Witch Doctor as my first character. Eventually I'll probably make several other characters too and play them through softcore until I eventually decide what one I feel the best about for trying hardcore with. I suspect I'll spend a great deal of time solo. First up though will be the Witch Doctor and so I'm starting to make some plans for him already. Thought I might as well share the thoughts I'm having and see what people think or just generally start some discussion since the forum is empty right now. (Not that that is surprising with the forums just being made and the game not even out yet)

My first thought is that I want pets. So right off the bat that means having Summon Zombie Dogs as one skill. I'm thinking the dogs will be really defensive and mostly there to keep things off of me. So probably use the skill rune Leeching Beasts to help them stay alive.

Another pet is Gargantuan. Originally I was thinking Humongoid for him to add AOE, but I've noticed a lot of my choices are pure physical. So I'm thinking Big Stinker instead to give him AOE and me a non-physical damage source.

From there my thinking is that I need something to use as my basic attack. I'd like to stay at ranged if possible so that eliminates some options. With my affinity for pets I'm thinking Corpse Spiders are a good option. Skill them as Leeping Spiders just to make sure they can move around some and don't waste damage.

My next thought is that I need a more pure AOE than just the Gargantuan. The spiders can do that a tiny amount since if a mob dies they will move onto another one, but it still feels mostly single target. Acid Cloud looks good in the little video clip that is up on the site, but I'm thinking I might as well stick with the pet theme. Fire Bats seem interesting, but I'm not sure I like that it seems channeled in some clips I've watched. So I'm thinking Zombie Charger with Explosive Beast. That'll give me a 236% AOE that does fire too so help get away from the physical damage problem some more.

From there I'd think some kind of control spell would be good. So sticking with the pet theme yet again Wall of Zombies seems a good option. Use the Barricade rune just for good measure. I like the idea of throwing up a Wall and then lobbing spiders over it. Seems appealing.

That leaves one skill slot still available. I debated going for something like Sacrifice, but I don't really like the idea of losing my dogs to hide behind. I realize I could re-summon them or use Runes/Passives that will get more, but it just still doesn't feel quite right to me. So I'm thinking maybe a little more control like Plague of Toads with a Toad of Hugeness rune. That would give me a shorter cooldown control skill to use on individual mobs that get close. Something to do some damage, but give me time to run away too without having to use a whole Wall for one mob.

To sum up that leaves me with:

Summon Zombie Dogs (Leeching Beasts)
Gargantuan (Big Stinker)
Corpse Spiders (Leeping Spiders)
Zombie Charger (Explosive Beast)
Wall of Zombies (Barricade)
Plague of Toads (Toad of Hugeness)

For passives I'm thinking Jungle Fortitude since I'm wanting my dogs and such to stay alive. Fetish Sycophants since I'm using so many physical spells anyway. That leaves one passive slot. I've considered Zombie Handler since it would give 4 dogs and more health, but I feel like getting the 4th dog (waiting the 60 seconds and summoning again) would be awkward and the reduction from the other passive is probably enough anyway. Especially combined with them leeching. So instead I'm thinking Pierce the Veil. The hope being that the mana cost won't really hurt much since two of my skills are pets so don't need constant mana and my main skill (Leeping Spiders) is cheap. Not sure how that will work out though.

That gives an end build of: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...ZeW!aYcaZY

The worry I would have with the build is that in D2 bosses destroyed pets generally. So I might have to do a lot of running and throwing spiders to get passed those. Could be tough, but nothing wrong with a challenge so figure it is worth a try,

[FireIceTalon]

I love AOE skills, but its probably wise to have one single target skill available for tougher monsters, in particular bosses, since they tend to do more immediate dmg rather than over time. You should really consider implementing Fire Bats in there somehow, this is an excellent skill for huge single target damage, perhaps with the Hungry Bats rune. Should be easy enough to do as long as you use Elective Mode. Or perhaps you could have Spined Dart to compensate fort the mana loss from Pierce the Veil passive.

[Treesh]

Firebats are indeed channeled. Think Inferno from D2. And yes, the minions will be eaten by bosses. Oh, and with the passive Circle of Life, you can get your zombie dogs without having to have the skill, although then you do miss out on a passive, but it's something to think about. There is a limit to three dogs, regardless of how you got them. If you have all three from the active skill still alive, then one won't spawn from the passive. Plague of toads was difficult to aim, the rotten buggers, but I just had to start thinking of that more like charged bolt from D2 and it was ok. Of course, runing it to do the giant toad you probably won't have an issue with that. =)

Oh, and your dogs really enjoy running amok. I wouldn't think of them as defensive. Generally, you have one that seems to stay by your side unless things get too close, but the other two are out playing and getting into all sorts of messes. Fun though. =) Love the puppies.

A skill I had initially just overlooked until I actually played it in beta was Haunt. It's pretty and you can have more than one out at a time. =) Not just pretty, but effective as well especially with the dogs out.

[swirly]

I love AOE skills, but its probably wise to have one single target skill available for tougher monsters, in particular bosses, since they tend to do more immediate dmg rather than over time.

I was thinking Leeping Spiders would work as a single target skill. The problem with AOE skills generally is that they are tuned to hit multiple targets and so either don't do enough damage when only hitting one or cost too much to be effective. Leeping Spiders look to be cheap so the cost isn't an issue there. Against a single mob (a boss) they would all hit that mob and so they shouldn't lose any damage like actual AOE skills do. So where is the problem with considering them single target? I suppose if there are a lot of bosses constantly summoning more adds then the lack of a control for them would be an issue.

Yeah... I think you might be right there. Not so much that I need a single target skill, but that I need a controllable target skill. At least that is how it is making sense in my mind. Something where if I need to give priority to killing a specific unit I can actually do that. I'll look into that. I realize this might be what most mean when they say single target, but I still see a slight difference. I tend to be weird though.

[swirly]

Oh, and with the passive Circle of Life, you can get your zombie dogs without having to have the skill, although then you do miss out on a passive, but it's something to think about. There is a limit to three dogs, regardless of how you got them. If you have all three from the active skill still alive, then one won't spawn from the passive.

Yeah I considered Circle of Life, but it just didn't seem useful with already being at the limit with the summon skill. To me it seems like something you would need to be using Sacrifice with to really take advantage of and it just doesn't seem like a playstyle I want right now.

Oh, and your dogs really enjoy running amok. I wouldn't think of them as defensive. Generally, you have one that seems to stay by your side unless things get too close, but the other two are out playing and getting into all sorts of messes. Fun though. =) Love the puppies.

I'm thinking of them like the druid's dogs in D2. I don't remember them being controllable (though my memory is very bad), but just running off on their own too. You could still use them defensively though. What I would call defensively anyway. Distractions may be a better word. Where they kind of lead the way and tie up some of the mobs so you are dealing with a slightly more controllable situation. We'll see if the same kind of thing works with the new ones.

A skill I had initially just overlooked until I actually played it in beta was Haunt. It's pretty and you can have more than one out at a time. =) Not just pretty, but effective as well especially with the dogs out.

I did see Haunt in action in a play through I gave in and watched. For some reason I didn't like it. I think it is purely a feel issue. It's a bit too dot oriented for me. Not that pets/spiders aren't essentially dots anyway, but somehow it just feels different. So that is one I deliberately avoided.

[swirly]

Yeah... I think you might be right there. Not so much that I need a single target skill, but that I need a controllable target skill.

I think I've decided to keep the build as it is. Fire Bats was suggested, but I just don't see that as gaining me anything. In Hungry Bats form it is uncontrollable and so not what I need. In Dire Bats form it is similar mana/damage as Exploding Beast which it would probably be replacing. With no rune it is too short ranged and immobile for me to want to use it. So basically I feel like I might as well stick with Exploding Beast like I had originally planned. That is a level 42 skill so I'll probably be use Dire Bats till then, but they seem to effectively fill the same role and I think I'll prefer Beast.

Spirit Barrage (The Spirit Is Willing probably) would be an option, but it does physical damage which the slot it would replace is helping me get around and yet also doesn't proc Sycophants. So that seems like a no go.

Poison Dart would seem to be the only other option. Probably Flaming Dart for big controlled target hit which is the whole point. It just doesn't really feel like the character to me though. I think it'll be more interesting to spam spiders and hope they hit the one I'm throwing them at or send some exploding dogs at a mob than it will be to shoot darts.

So yeah, end result is that I think I'm going to give it a go as is and see how far I get till it fails me. Maybe I'll get into the game and change my mind, but right now it just seems the most appealing option.

[Treesh]

Oh, and with the passive Circle of Life, you can get your zombie dogs without having to have the skill, although then you do miss out on a passive, but it's something to think about. There is a limit to three dogs, regardless of how you got them. If you have all three from the active skill still alive, then one won't spawn from the passive.

Yeah I considered Circle of Life, but it just didn't seem useful with already being at the limit with the summon skill. To me it seems like something you would need to be using Sacrifice with to really take advantage of and it just doesn't seem like a playstyle I want right now.

I never used it with sacrifice. I just didn't have the zombie dogs as a skill. This is what I ended up with using in the beta at the end since I wanted to have the dogs, but wanted to play around with some of the other skills as well. I started out really wanting to have a bunch of minions running around, but at that low level I didn't like the frogs or the spiders or the bats which was a horrible disappointment. I loved the puppies though. =) Soul harvest + haunt and the dogs really tore through the low level stuff. I'm still going to be fiddling with having a herd following my WD around though. Haven't decided if the pets are going to be with the HC WD or the softcore one though. I have the feeling that I'll keep changing everything out as I level. I always have had an issue with coming up with an end game build rather than leveling builds instead. =)

[Roland]

I'm making a Witch Doctor as my first character. Eventually I'll probably make several other characters too and play them through softcore until I eventually decide what one I feel the best about for trying hardcore with. I suspect I'll spend a great deal of time solo. First up though will be the Witch Doctor and so I'm starting to make some plans for him already. Thought I might as well share the thoughts I'm having and see what people think or just generally start some discussion since the forum is empty right now. (Not that that is surprising with the forums just being made and the game not even out yet)

My first thought is that I want pets. So right off the bat that means having Summon Zombie Dogs as one skill. I'm thinking the dogs will be really defensive and mostly there to keep things off of me. So probably use the skill rune Leeching Beasts to help them stay alive.

Another pet is Gargantuan. Originally I was thinking Humongoid for him to add AOE, but I've noticed a lot of my choices are pure physical. So I'm thinking Big Stinker instead to give him AOE and me a non-physical damage source.

From there my thinking is that I need something to use as my basic attack. I'd like to stay at ranged if possible so that eliminates some options. With my affinity for pets I'm thinking Corpse Spiders are a good option. Skill them as Leeping Spiders just to make sure they can move around some and don't waste damage.

My next thought is that I need a more pure AOE than just the Gargantuan. The spiders can do that a tiny amount since if a mob dies they will move onto another one, but it still feels mostly single target. Acid Cloud looks good in the little video clip that is up on the site, but I'm thinking I might as well stick with the pet theme. Fire Bats seem interesting, but I'm not sure I like that it seems channeled in some clips I've watched. So I'm thinking Zombie Charger with Explosive Beast. That'll give me a 236% AOE that does fire too so help get away from the physical damage problem some more.

From there I'd think some kind of control spell would be good. So sticking with the pet theme yet again Wall of Zombies seems a good option. Use the Barricade rune just for good measure. I like the idea of throwing up a Wall and then lobbing spiders over it. Seems appealing.

That leaves one skill slot still available. I debated going for something like Sacrifice, but I don't really like the idea of losing my dogs to hide behind. I realize I could re-summon them or use Runes/Passives that will get more, but it just still doesn't feel quite right to me. So I'm thinking maybe a little more control like Plague of Toads with a Toad of Hugeness rune. That would give me a shorter cooldown control skill to use on individual mobs that get close. Something to do some damage, but give me time to run away too without having to use a whole Wall for one mob.

To sum up that leaves me with:

Summon Zombie Dogs (Leeching Beasts)
Gargantuan (Big Stinker)
Corpse Spiders (Leeping Spiders)
Zombie Charger (Explosive Beast)
Wall of Zombies (Barricade)
Plague of Toads (Toad of Hugeness)

For passives I'm thinking Jungle Fortitude since I'm wanting my dogs and such to stay alive. Fetish Sycophants since I'm using so many physical spells anyway. That leaves one passive slot. I've considered Zombie Handler since it would give 4 dogs and more health, but I feel like getting the 4th dog (waiting the 60 seconds and summoning again) would be awkward and the reduction from the other passive is probably enough anyway. Especially combined with them leeching. So instead I'm thinking Pierce the Veil. The hope being that the mana cost won't really hurt much since two of my skills are pets so don't need constant mana and my main skill (Leeping Spiders) is cheap. Not sure how that will work out though.

That gives an end build of: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...ZeW!aYcaZY

The worry I would have with the build is that in D2 bosses destroyed pets generally. So I might have to do a lot of running and throwing spiders to get passed those. Could be tough, but nothing wrong with a challenge so figure it is worth a try,

Please note that this is not to convince you in any way how to play your character, but merely to inform you about the character before you start (which is basically moot, since you can change your skills and runes anytime you want).

Zombie Dogs deal low damage, and die to any boss they come across. They WILL die at the first swipe from the Skeleton King, and I can only imagine bosses getting tougher beyond him, so don't expect to use them for boss fights - they just won't be alive.

Leaping Spiders deal very low damage (although slightly higher than regular spiders). They won't always go after the same target if there's multiple, but usually more than one will strike where you throw them (and the range on the thrown jar is pretty good - almost across the whole screen). From my experiences they get in about 2 hits before they die off, so you really need to spam them (although there appears to be an invisible cap on the number of spiders that can be active at any time, though you'll still keep throwing the jars).

The DPS on the basic Fire Bats skill is pretty nice, and I liked it over the Dire Bats Rune, but that's personal preference. Play around and find what you like.

You don't have Soul Harvest. This, IMHO, is a big mistake. Running into a pack of 5+ monsters and casting this nets you a HUGE bonus to Intelligence - which translates to a HUGE increase in DPS. Remember that Intelligence directly increases the Witch Doctor's damage output. This skill is incredibly useful for dealing with summoning Bosses, as well as Elites / Champions. It's just an absolutely awesome skill, and frankly I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet.

Personally, I don't care much for the Witch Doctor, but I'm sure some of his later skills would better suit my style than the ones available in Beta. I'm sure you'll have lots of fun with him, and there is no wrong way to play any class - that's a big part of the fun of Diablo III, not to mention you can change your play style at any time if you feel your current one just isn't working for you. Go with whatever you want, and don't be afraid to try new things. The game is fun, no matter how you slice it, and every skill has something to offer.

[swirly]

You don't have Soul Harvest. This, IMHO, is a big mistake. Running into a pack of 5+ monsters and casting this nets you a HUGE bonus to Intelligence - which translates to a HUGE increase in DPS. Remember that Intelligence directly increases the Witch Doctor's damage output. This skill is incredibly useful for dealing with summoning Bosses, as well as Elites / Champions. It's just an absolutely awesome skill, and frankly I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet.

To me it comes down to a style of play consideration. In the build I would slot Soul Harvest up against my Toad of Hugeness spot. In which case it is DPS verse CC in my mind. I'm expecting to play a slower more controlled style of play and so the added CC wins for me currently. Of course I'm also suspecting that people are undervaluing spiders right now. I realize they are doing it based off of their experience with them in Beta and by looking at the numbers and how much smaller they are, but I just suspect that Blizzard will have them tuned right such that between the speed you can throw them, the cost of doing so, and the damage each individual does that it will be more decent than people are giving it credit for. I understand I'm possibly placing foolish hopes there, but placing my wager on it anyway till I get to try it in the live game and see.

I just feel like Soul Harvest is for a style of play where you want to wade into a group of mobs and destroy them whereas I'm expecting to stand back from a group of mobs, control them with my dogs/walls/etc, and then kill them at a more moderate pace. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

I also do wonder if it isn't slightly over-hyped. I know it is great for killing huge numbers of mobs where you can get the buff large and I even agree it could be nerfed for those situations. I just also expect there to be big solitary bosses we have to kill where you aren't going to want to get close enough to the boss to activate it. Especially with it only having the one mob to hit and so getting a smaller buff too. So it feels to me like a WoW build built to maximize damage on trash pulls that does less than others on bosses. Of course my build likely will be bad at bosses too since, like you said, they will destroy my pets. So I'm a little hypocritical for downplaying Soul Harvest for something I have in common with it. I just suspect people are being overawed by it's power against masses and not weighing it in those other situation. Again though, I've not even played the beta so I could be completely, utterly, terribly wrong. I am quite looking forward to finding out though!

[Roland]

To me it comes down to a style of play consideration. In the build I would slot Soul Harvest up against my Toad of Hugeness spot. In which case it is DPS verse CC in my mind. I'm expecting to play a slower more controlled style of play and so the added CC wins for me currently. Of course I'm also suspecting that people are undervaluing spiders right now. I realize they are doing it based off of their experience with them in Beta and by looking at the numbers and how much smaller they are, but I just suspect that Blizzard will have them tuned right such that between the speed you can throw them, the cost of doing so, and the damage each individual does that it will be more decent than people are giving it credit for. I understand I'm possibly placing foolish hopes there, but placing my wager on it anyway till I get to try it in the live game and see.

I just feel like Soul Harvest is for a style of play where you want to wade into a group of mobs and destroy them whereas I'm expecting to stand back from a group of mobs, control them with my dogs/walls/etc, and then kill them at a more moderate pace. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

I also do wonder if it isn't slightly over-hyped. I know it is great for killing huge numbers of mobs where you can get the buff large and I even agree it could be nerfed for those situations. I just also expect there to be big solitary bosses we have to kill where you aren't going to want to get close enough to the boss to activate it. Especially with it only having the one mob to hit and so getting a smaller buff too. So it feels to me like a WoW build built to maximize damage on trash pulls that does less than others on bosses. Of course my build likely will be bad at bosses too since, like you said, they will destroy my pets. So I'm a little hypocritical for downplaying Soul Harvest for something I have in common with it. I just suspect people are being overawed by it's power against masses and not weighing it in those other situation. Again though, I've not even played the beta so I could be completely, utterly, terribly wrong. I am quite looking forward to finding out though!

Given your chosen playstyle I would agree you won't miss Soul Harvest much. It is a phenomenal skill (it increases your DPS between 13% and 65%), but it's not crucial by any means. Don't take it if you don't want it, especially if you have your heart set on something else (i.e. CC via the frogs). Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

To be quite honest, Spiders are underwhelming to me - but then so is the Witch Doctor. You can control where to throw the jar - that much is true. However, you have zero control on where the spiders go, and each jar will NOT target only the monster you targeted. They also do pitiful damage with each strike, and die after approximately 2 hits. These all combine to make a relatively slow-damaging build, although it's by no means not viable. Spiders are completely spammable - your base mana regen will absolutely cover the cost of Spiders. They just take "awhile" to whittle down your opponent, as they strike about once every 1 - 1.5 seconds (rough visual estimation), and die after approximately 2-3 hits (depending on travel time). So although in theory you're looking at 19% x 4 Spiders = 76% weapon damage per cast, that damage is spread out among multiple mobs 95% of the time. Regardless of whether it's single-target or AoE Spiders are simply not a DPS skill. Compare that to even the most basic Poison Dart spell (100% plus 40% DoT over 2 seconds) and you're looking at vastly higher DPS elsewhere.

However, I can see you want to be a Pet class, and there's nothing wrong with that playstyle. I'm sure it will be very fun for you, and that is ultimately all that matters. Personally, when I get around to playing a Witch Doctor it's probably going to be my usual mix of direct-damage and utility, but we'll see. I actually prefer, "feel"-wise as you asked earlier, skills like Sentry and Hydra. Just something about them I like, whereas Zombie Dogs and Spiders just don't do it for me. I never played a Summoner Necro (although I did thoroughly enjoy Summoner Druids). He was always a Poison and/or Curses Necro. Just found it to be way more fun and engaging, which is what I enjoy - constant tactical input on a macro and micro scale (which is heavily ironic considering how piss-poor I am at both in RTS games).

I prefer more fast-paced frenetic gameplay, even if my overall playing is more plodding (full clears all the time). I'm in a hurry to kill things, but not necessarily to get there. In case you were wondering, this is probably more akin to what I would be playing as a Witch Doctor.

[Bizono]

I love AOE skills, but its probably wise to have one single target skill available for tougher monsters, in particular bosses, since they tend to do more immediate dmg rather than over time.

I was thinking Leeping Spiders would work as a single target skill. The problem with AOE skills generally is that they are tuned to hit multiple targets and so either don't do enough damage when only hitting one or cost too much to be effective. Leeping Spiders look to be cheap so the cost isn't an issue there. Against a single mob (a boss) they would all hit that mob and so they shouldn't lose any damage like actual AOE skills do. So where is the problem with considering them single target? I suppose if there are a lot of bosses constantly summoning more adds then the lack of a control for them would be an issue.

Yeah... I think you might be right there. Not so much that I need a single target skill, but that I need a controllable target skill. At least that is how it is making sense in my mind. Something where if I need to give priority to killing a specific unit I can actually do that. I'll look into that. I realize this might be what most mean when they say single target, but I still see a slight difference. I tend to be weird though.

Don't ignore Grasp of the Dead. I thought this was one of the more effective skills through beta, although maybe it's less effective at later levels. As others have stated, a 5 stack of Soul Harvest provides a very nice dps boost, although I wonder if the intelligence boost is only linear and therefore it doesn't scale well.

[Treesh]

I never had a problem with the killing speed of the spiders. I just didn't like the sound and it tended to lag my machine if I was throwing out spiders. Didn't have the slowdown with the frogs, just the spiders. The frogs I didn't like because they targeted more like charged bolt in D2. Damage wise, they were both fine though.

[Bizono]

I prefer more fast-paced frenetic gameplay, even if my overall playing is more plodding (full clears all the time). I'm in a hurry to kill things, but not necessarily to get there. In case you were wondering, this is probably more akin to what I would be playing as a Witch Doctor.

This looks really solid, pretty close to what I'd go with, although I wonder if Hex isn't a better choice than Horrify.

[MMAgCh]

The frogs I didn't like because they targeted more like charged bolt in D2.

In D2 you could be certain to hit a target with CB if you were standing right in front of it (memories of my CB sorc before they nerfed it ), though – judging from my limited experience and the gameplay videos I've watched, at least, this just isn't the case in D3, neither with Plague of Toads nor with Shock Pulse. It rather put me off those skills; I'm fine with having to use them at point-blank range for maximum effectiveness, but if I'm hugging a monster and they're still missing considerably more often than they hit, well, they're just not worth my time then.

[Treesh]

The frogs I didn't like because they targeted more like charged bolt in D2.

In D2 you could be certain to hit a target with CB if you were standing right in front of it (memories of my CB sorc before they nerfed it ), though – judging from my limited experience and the gameplay videos I've watched, at least, this just isn't the case in D3, neither with Plague of Toads nor with Shock Pulse. It rather put me off those skills; I'm fine with having to use them at point-blank range for maximum effectiveness, but if I'm hugging a monster and they're still missing considerably more often than they hit, well, they're just not worth my time then.

I didn't stand point blank with my charged bolt girl. I placed the mouse pointer partway between me and the monster and cast that way. Kind of like how multi-shot's spread changed depending on how far away your mouse was from your character. But the similarity between D2 charged bolt and unruned plague of frogs is that if you actually target the monster you want to die, your frogs will miss almost every time. Very aggravating for me so I fell back on my charged bolt tendencies (mouse partway between you and the critter) and then that worked.

[swirly]

To be quite honest, Spiders are underwhelming to me - but then so is the Witch Doctor. You can control where to throw the jar - that much is true. However, you have zero control on where the spiders go, and each jar will NOT target only the monster you targeted. They also do pitiful damage with each strike, and die after approximately 2 hits. These all combine to make a relatively slow-damaging build, although it's by no means not viable. Spiders are completely spammable - your base mana regen will absolutely cover the cost of Spiders. They just take "awhile" to whittle down your opponent, as they strike about once every 1 - 1.5 seconds (rough visual estimation), and die after approximately 2-3 hits (depending on travel time). So although in theory you're looking at 19% x 4 Spiders = 76% weapon damage per cast, that damage is spread out among multiple mobs 95% of the time. Regardless of whether it's single-target or AoE Spiders are simply not a DPS skill. Compare that to even the most basic Poison Dart spell (100% plus 40% DoT over 2 seconds) and you're looking at vastly higher DPS elsewhere.

You said each spider hits twice right? So that would be 76% weapon damage per hit which then would be 152% per cast. Spread over some time, but better than the 140% you quoted for the basic Poison Dart. Another thing that I hear Devs mention is animation time. I'm really not sure how that factors into things with all these sort of numbers. If you have to wait for a full animation then that is something else to consider with every spell. No clue what spell that would favor. I also recall somebody in a conversation with Treesh (can't recall if it was on the forums or on the podcast) saying something about that depending on if you have the skill on the mouse or on the action bar. So there are other variables in play to consider for calculating dps. Still, just knowing that each spider hits twice already makes their damage more respectable.

I never had a problem with the killing speed of the spiders. I just didn't like the sound and it tended to lag my machine if I was throwing out spiders.

I watched a gameplay video from some guy that goes by the name Force a week or so ago. In it he used various skills as he leveled and they became available. When he picked up spiders he commented that in a previous patch's playthrough he found them rather week. Then he went on to play with them and started commenting on how they seemed much stronger than they were previously. I have no clue if it was because of drop luck or a patch change or what, but it does make me question some of what I have read about them. Without any knowledge of how recently somebody has tested a skill it is very hard to know if they are even basing things on the most current version. Add in all the possible unknowns like I spoke of earlier in this post and I really do think your not having a problem with their killing speed is going to be more accurate than some who have said they are overly bad. Of course you and I both tend to be more tolerating of killing speed too. Judging from knowledge of some of our antics in WoW. So that could have something to do with it as well.

[swirly]

Don't ignore Grasp of the Dead. I thought this was one of the more effective skills through beta, although maybe it's less effective at later levels.

That is a skill I do keep debating. In a play through I watched before putting together my build it did look quite good. It is a skill I have considered for my build, but it just barely lost out. Basically it would replace either Wall or Toad. I could go Grasp + Wall, but that seems a bit overkill in the AOE control category. So I think it likely to keep Toad for small scale control and debate between Grasp and Wall for the other slot. They both seem like really good skills to me. Grasp is more versatile with it's shorter cooldown so you can lay down more of them to really control things. I think what decided me on Wall is really just that it looks really cool. I actually do wonder if Grasp will be more effective in the long run though.

I'm not even 100% sure how Wall works. The description just says they attack nearby mobs. So that doesn't mean it has to actually block a path. I'm assuming it does and so mobs have to walk around the wall, but that may not be true. I feel like maybe I saw it in a video and it did stop them, but it might have also just killed the mobs. It is so hard to tell sometimes. If it doesn't make them go around then I could run with Unrelenting Grip to help fix that some.

At that point Wall becomes 80% damage and 60% slow every 25 seconds lasting 5 seconds. While Grasp is 20%/80% every 8 and lasting 8. (with Unbreakable Grasp) So becomes a choice between damage and better slow/coverage.

That is definitely a spot still slightly up in the air for me though. Whether to run Wall or Grasp. I'm going to try Wall and see if it will work like I want it to, but Grasp is quite tempting.

As others have stated, a 5 stack of Soul Harvest provides a very nice dps boost, although I wonder if the intelligence boost is only linear and therefore it doesn't scale well.

I didn't even think of that it is a static boost. Does it increase by level like Monk heals do? I'd think surely it must otherwise it would get left behind really quickly. Still, it does make one wonder where it will stand later. A lot will depend on how fast it grows and what level stats are at on later gear. I think it is a good point you make Bizono.

[Roland]

You said each spider hits twice right? So that would be 76% weapon damage per hit which then would be 152% per cast. Spread over some time, but better than the 140% you quoted for the basic Poison Dart. Another thing that I hear Devs mention is animation time. I'm really not sure how that factors into things with all these sort of numbers. If you have to wait for a full animation then that is something else to consider with every spell. No clue what spell that would favor. I also recall somebody in a conversation with Treesh (can't recall if it was on the forums or on the podcast) saying something about that depending on if you have the skill on the mouse or on the action bar. So there are other variables in play to consider for calculating dps. Still, just knowing that each spider hits twice already makes their damage more respectable.

Couldn't tell you much about animation times on mouse versus skillbar. Seems like a stupid thing to have be different, but I wouldn't put it past the devs. I will say that the DPS output of the Spiders is slow, period, because as I said it's a random DoT. I could much more easily and efficiently clear out mobs with Splintered Poison Darts (3x Darts @ 60% each) than I could with Leaping Spiders, because I could control who fell and when. Spiders you'd have to just keep lobbing them until everything died, with minimal control on who would get hit, so it kept packs of monsters alive much longer, despite technically doing more damage. Also, as I said there seems to be an invisible cap on how many Spiders you can have out, which does not affect Poison Dart, so after a certain point more Spiders don't seem to keep increasing your damage output.

I watched a gameplay video from some guy that goes by the name Force a week or so ago. In it he used various skills as he leveled and they became available. When he picked up spiders he commented that in a previous patch's playthrough he found them rather week. Then he went on to play with them and started commenting on how they seemed much stronger than they were previously. I have no clue if it was because of drop luck or a patch change or what, but it does make me question some of what I have read about them. Without any knowledge of how recently somebody has tested a skill it is very hard to know if they are even basing things on the most current version. Add in all the possible unknowns like I spoke of earlier in this post and I really do think your not having a problem with their killing speed is going to be more accurate than some who have said they are overly bad. Of course you and I both tend to be more tolerating of killing speed too. Judging from knowledge of some of our antics in WoW. So that could have something to do with it as well.

I played right up through the last patch. There were no more patches forthcoming when I played every single class through to max level, and tried every single skill and rune available. For groups of mobs I found the Spiders to be too slow in killing, and too varied in their target selection compared to Poison Dart. Frogs was, as Treesh said, a very difficult skill to work with. The Wizard's charged bolt-esque skill actually worked much more reliably than Plague of Toads, especially at point-blank, whereas Toads would miss for me more often than hit. I'm sure with some more practice you might learn the "pattern" better and start hitting more reliably, but frankly I found the skill frustrating to use - moreso than spiders. Of course, this won't be a problem with Toad of Hugeness, because it's a single-target spell.

That is a skill I do keep debating. In a play through I watched before putting together my build it did look quite good. It is a skill I have considered for my build, but it just barely lost out. Basically it would replace either Wall or Toad. I could go Grasp + Wall, but that seems a bit overkill in the AOE control category. So I think it likely to keep Toad for small scale control and debate between Grasp and Wall for the other slot. They both seem like really good skills to me. Grasp is more versatile with it's shorter cooldown so you can lay down more of them to really control things. I think what decided me on Wall is really just that it looks really cool. I actually do wonder if Grasp will be more effective in the long run though.

Never got to play with Wall, but Grasp was loads of fun. Not too different from Caltrops for the DH, which I used very often. Play with each and see which suits your style more.

I didn't even think of that it is a static boost. Does it increase by level like Monk heals do? I'd think surely it must otherwise it would get left behind really quickly. Still, it does make one wonder where it will stand later. A lot will depend on how fast it grows and what level stats are at on later gear. I think it is a good point you make Bizono.

The intelligence boost is, AFAIK, a static boost. However, remember that for every point in Intelligence you gain a .1% boost in DPS, so +100 Intelligence equals 10% more DPS. Therefore it scales perfectly fine for its intended purpose - up to 65% more DPS (no one else in the game gets that kind of boost, and for that long).

As I said, take spiders and try them out. I didn't enjoy them, while others may. I knew people who used Toads when I couldn't stand them, and instead relied upon Splintered Poison Dart. That's part of the beauty of D3 - every skill is designed to be viable, and flexible with Runes. I personally simply didn't find Spiders to be a worthwhile skill to me. I felt I was spending more time waiting for things to die than I was with other skills, and I don't like hands-off playstyles. DoTs are fine so long as the gameplay remains engaging (ala Poison / Bone / Curse Necro), but pets just don't do it for me.

[Chesspiece_face]

Another thing that I hear Devs mention is animation time. I'm really not sure how that factors into things with all these sort of numbers. If you have to wait for a full animation then that is something else to consider with every spell. No clue what spell that would favor. I also recall somebody in a conversation with Treesh (can't recall if it was on the forums or on the podcast) saying something about that depending on if you have the skill on the mouse or on the action bar.

Yeah, we talked about this a little bit on the podcast. The issue we were discussing involved animation canceling. The problem as it relates to Spiders is that the cast time for flinging a Spider Bottle is pretty long (1+ second) and it is a skill that you are going to want to spam a lot. Because it is a long-ish casting time spell as well as one that you would spam a lot it was extremely common in the beta for you to be caught in a delay where you would continue casting queued up Spiders despite wanting to cancel and cast a different spell.

This is something the Devs have reportedly decided to look into to fix (I guess we'll see in a few days.)

The other issue that came up in the podcast related to this was that if you have skills set to your Number hotkeys you could actually cancel the spell animations of your Mouse assigned skills by using those. This creates a strange technical system where if you want to get the most out of your character's fluidity and damage you would need to assign your skill's hotkeys in some pretty bizzare ways.

Hopefully this will all be resolved come release.

[Treesh]

Another thing that I hear Devs mention is animation time. I'm really not sure how that factors into things with all these sort of numbers. If you have to wait for a full animation then that is something else to consider with every spell. No clue what spell that would favor. I also recall somebody in a conversation with Treesh (can't recall if it was on the forums or on the podcast) saying something about that depending on if you have the skill on the mouse or on the action bar.

Yeah, we talked about this a little bit on the podcast. The issue we were discussing involved animation canceling. The problem as it relates to Spiders is that the cast time for flinging a Spider Bottle is pretty long (1+ second) and it is a skill that you are going to want to spam a lot. Because it is a long-ish casting time spell as well as one that you would spam a lot it was extremely common in the beta for you to be caught in a delay where you would continue casting queued up Spiders despite wanting to cancel and cast a different spell.

This is something the Devs have reportedly decided to look into to fix (I guess we'll see in a few days.)

The other issue that came up in the podcast related to this was that if you have skills set to your Number hotkeys you could actually cancel the spell animations of your Mouse assigned skills by using those. This creates a strange technical system where if you want to get the most out of your character's fluidity and damage you would need to assign your skill's hotkeys in some pretty bizzare ways.

Hopefully this will all be resolved come release.

I forgot to mention this in the podcast, but the skill speed, even for magic attacks, is based off of your weapon speed so you can get a quicker cast time on the spiders with a quicker weapon.

I don't think you'll have to go too crazy with the assigning. You can basically just have your primary on the left mouse, secondary on the left and then all of your fancy moves on the other hotkeys. Usually those are the defensive/longer cooldown skills anyway so it's kind of built in already to be able to interrupt when you really need to.