Weapon Normalization
#1
I was chatting with Skandranon last night about weapon normalization in Diablo III. He had mentioned a Blizzard blue post that mentioned that there isn't weapon normalization in the traditional sense for Diablo III.

All I could find was a discussion on the Battle.Net forums a while ago about this.

Basically it's like this, from my understanding:

1) All skills' damage and speed is based on your weapon damage and weapon speed.
2) At any given item level, 2-handers will do more damage than 1-handers.
3) There is no weapon normalization for procs (AFAIK).

What this means is that skills that proc effects are much better served by having 1-handed weapons. For example, if you're using a skill that's runed to occasionally stun enemies, you're much better off with using fast 1-handed weapons over two handeds, because you'll get off more stuns per minute. Diablo III doesn't normalize the proc rate as it does with World of Warcraft, so if you use a big slow weapon, you're just flat-out getting less procs per minute. Add to that that slower attack speeds leave you more open to interruption effects (knockbacks, stuns) preventing you from getting off any attacks at all, and the choice becomes clear.

The only reason I can think of to use a big slow 2-handed weapon is when using abilities that have cooldowns. Since those are never your primary attacks, it doesn't seem worthwhile to prioritize those.

Now, the key is: at what breakpoint does having a lesser-damaging but faster-attacking weapon set gain traction? Assuming equal item levels, the 2-handed weapons will do more damage per second in raw output. Depending on your abilities' procs, however, the lesser-damaging 1-hander may be the superior choice. This should be an interesting topic for theorycrafting as time goes on, especially when considering end-game weapons and what skills are being used.
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#2
(05-16-2012, 06:01 PM)Bolty Wrote: The only reason I can think of to use a big slow 2-handed weapon is when using abilities that have cooldowns. Since those are never your primary attacks, it doesn't seem worthwhile to prioritize those.

What about Arcane Power efficiency for a Wizard? The skill costs the same per cast whether you're using a fast weapon or a slow high damage weapon. So, why not use as big and slow of a weapon as possible to improve the damage/AP ratio?
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#3
This is why my barb dual wields and uses the clobber rune with bash. It just makes monsters that I single target down super easy. I got achievements on 2 major bosses because between me and my wizard team mate they were shut down about 95% of the time.
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#4
(05-16-2012, 06:01 PM)Bolty Wrote: The only reason I can think of to use a big slow 2-handed weapon is when using abilities that have cooldowns. Since those are never your primary attacks, it doesn't seem worthwhile to prioritize those.

Don't forget resource costs. If a wizard is chucking arcane orbs for 200% damage, she can increase that damage number with a slower weapon without paying any more mana. She will get more mileage from a big, slow weapon, more DPS per arcane power, more time to regen arcane power for other things.

With the "generator" classes this usually evens out to nothing, but it can potentially be a very relevant choice for certain wizard / witch doctor builds. This is assuming that the resource costs actually matter by the endgame, with so few ways to modify them though (where art thou mana leech), it is very possible.
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#5
Great to see the Lounge alive talking about Diablo again. I don't really have anything to add, my DH is in early Act 3.

Obligatory on-topic: Before level 25, spike trap(s) laid on top of caltrops is deadly. Big Grin (After that, Sentry's nice, too.)
--Mav
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#6
(05-16-2012, 08:43 PM)MongoJerry Wrote: What about Arcane Power efficiency for a Wizard? The skill costs the same per cast whether you're using a fast weapon or a slow high damage weapon. So, why not use as big and slow of a weapon as possible to improve the damage/AP ratio?

So I have so far not read much in the way of theorycraft at all... weapon damage counts on spells? Is there a nice summary about how damage is calculated?
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#7
(05-17-2012, 03:47 PM)vor_lord Wrote: So I have so far not read much in the way of theorycraft at all... weapon damage counts on spells? Is there a nice summary about how damage is calculated?

I don't have numbers to throw at you, but the main basic point to skill usage in Diablo III is that your gear factors in to all skills. A level 60 Wizard wearing level 1 gear will do quite poorly. This is a stark difference to Diablo 1 and Diablo 2, where your skills had innate damage statistics - thus leading to fun variants like naked or "beyond naked" mages.

Diablo III is insanely gear-centric. Your weapon speed directly controls your skill speed, even for casters.
Quote:Considering the mods here are generally liberals who seem to have a soft spot for fascism and white supremacy (despite them saying otherwise), me being perma-banned at some point is probably not out of the question.
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#8
(05-17-2012, 03:47 PM)vor_lord Wrote: So I have so far not read much in the way of theorycraft at all... weapon damage counts on spells? Is there a nice summary about how damage is calculated?

It says in the spells how much % of weapon damage is done with each cast. Well at least on the web calculator it does.

If you are a wizard with 1H + source, the source damage gets multiplied just like base weapon damage.

That is how it works "in theory." Whether it actually works that way is something I'm not going to have time to test, but it's supposed to work that way.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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#9
(05-17-2012, 05:58 PM)Concillian Wrote:
(05-17-2012, 03:47 PM)vor_lord Wrote: So I have so far not read much in the way of theorycraft at all... weapon damage counts on spells? Is there a nice summary about how damage is calculated?

It says in the spells how much % of weapon damage is done with each cast. Well at least on the web calculator it does.

If you are a wizard with 1H + source, the source damage gets multiplied just like base weapon damage.

That is how it works "in theory." Whether it actually works that way is something I'm not going to have time to test, but it's supposed to work that way.

Just make sure you have advanced tool tips enabled. The impact of gear is much more clear with this option enabled.


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#10
(05-17-2012, 07:27 PM)PapaSmurf Wrote: Just make sure you have advanced tool tips enabled. The impact of gear is much more clear with this option enabled.

This is probably what I'm missing. I've been trying to figure out how to move the tooltips (so it doesn't cover half my inventory). I'm just barely getting started in the game so far
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#11
(05-16-2012, 08:43 PM)MongoJerry Wrote:
(05-16-2012, 06:01 PM)Bolty Wrote: The only reason I can think of to use a big slow 2-handed weapon is when using abilities that have cooldowns. Since those are never your primary attacks, it doesn't seem worthwhile to prioritize those.

What about Arcane Power efficiency for a Wizard? The skill costs the same per cast whether you're using a fast weapon or a slow high damage weapon. So, why not use as big and slow of a weapon as possible to improve the damage/AP ratio?

Conversely, many of the signature spells have runes that regenerate arcane power per hit. So while you get worse arcance power effeciency for the spell that require arcane power, you will regenerate arcane power more quickly with a faster attacking weapon. I think the beauty of the implementation is that both slow and fast weapons are viable based on skill combinations and play style preference.


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#12
(05-17-2012, 09:20 PM)PapaSmurf Wrote: Conversely, many of the signature spells have runes that regenerate arcane power per hit. So while you get worse arcance power effeciency for the spell that require arcane power, you will regenerate arcane power more quickly with a faster attacking weapon. I think the beauty of the implementation is that both slow and fast weapons are viable based on skill combinations and play style preference.

And I call a system that has multiple useful outcomes a success. Big Grin
--Mav
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#13
(05-17-2012, 05:58 PM)Concillian Wrote:
(05-17-2012, 03:47 PM)vor_lord Wrote: So I have so far not read much in the way of theorycraft at all... weapon damage counts on spells? Is there a nice summary about how damage is calculated?

It says in the spells how much % of weapon damage is done with each cast. Well at least on the web calculator it does.

If you are a wizard with 1H + source, the source damage gets multiplied just like base weapon damage.

That is how it works "in theory." Whether it actually works that way is something I'm not going to have time to test, but it's supposed to work that way.


It appears to work like this:

1 - primary stat = +1% damage
Primary stat is STR for melee, DEX for DH, and INT for casters


So base_damage * (100 + primary_stat) / 100 = weapon_damage

Most classes have a decent amount of their primary stat just from leveling, but you can also get it on gear. Due to that, raw +weapon damage modifiers are generally very beneficial

+ weapon damage modifiers can be found from:
red gems socketed in weapons
rings
amlulets
special class items (caster off-hands, barb belts, etc...)

The result is that a balance of weapon damage and +primary stat items will offer the best damage. A simple magic ring with just a small amount of +damage on it can give a pretty substantial damage boost since it adds to the base damage. Also, while leveling, a simple "at level" socketed weapon of any kind can be pretty useful if you have a decent red gem to go along with it.


Also....
Keeping in line with the "balance" of fast vs slow, a fast weapon will see more benefit from +weapon damage items than a slow item. If a wizard has +4 damage from a red gem, and +10 across rings and a source, then the difference between a 20 damage weapon at 1.5 attacks per second and a 30 damage item at 1.0 attacks per second is tempered. it becomes 30 vs. 40 damage (25% difference) instead of 20 vs. 30 (50% difference).

Since animations also appear to be faster with faster weapons, there's the additional benefit for ranged that faster weapons improve mobility. This has always been a huge deal in the Diablo series, and I highly doubt too many ranged are going to favor slow weapons just from the better ability to "run and gun" with fast weapons.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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#14
(05-18-2012, 06:44 PM)Concillian Wrote: Since animations also appear to be faster with faster weapons, there's the additional benefit for ranged that faster weapons improve mobility. This has always been a huge deal in the Diablo series, and I highly doubt too many ranged are going to favor slow weapons just from the better ability to "run and gun" with fast weapons.

Hmm. I admit I haven't given it too much thought but I was thinking a slower weapon would benefit run-n-gun more due to attack speed not being dependent on the weapon but your situation. If I'm running away from mobs and can only afford to turn around and pop off 1 shot every 2 seconds (due to my run speed vs the mob's), I would think a slower weapon would fare better. At the least I see it boiling down to being basically the same. I guess I need to test out how quickly you can get that 1 shot off with different weapons. Is there no "rest" period between shots on slower weapons? Does the animation actually occupy the entire time between attacks?
"Just as individuals are born, mature, breed and die, so do societies, civilizations and governments."
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#15
(05-18-2012, 06:44 PM)Concillian Wrote: 1 - primary stat = +1% damage
Primary stat is STR for Barb, DEX for DH and Monk, and INT for casters

Fixed that for you.

Also, for defensive stuff, don't forget that Int increases resistances, *including physical*, while Dex increases dodge, and Str increases armor, for any class.

As far as gems, a +10-20 damage gem in my bow adds 100 or more DPS to my DH on the character sheet.
--Mav
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#16
(05-18-2012, 07:39 PM)ima_nerd Wrote: Hmm. I admit I haven't given it too much thought but I was thinking a slower weapon would benefit run-n-gun more due to attack speed not being dependent on the weapon but your situation. If I'm running away from mobs and can only afford to turn around and pop off 1 shot every 2 seconds (due to my run speed vs the mob's), I would think a slower weapon would fare better. At the least I see it boiling down to being basically the same. I guess I need to test out how quickly you can get that 1 shot off with different weapons. Is there no "rest" period between shots on slower weapons? Does the animation actually occupy the entire time between attacks?

I dunno about DH, but on the wiz, cast speed definitely seems influenced by weapon speed. The amount of time standing still is longer with a slow weapon, which affects your ability to run. For something like frost nova, then unload 3 arcane orbs while frozen, 2H might make sense. For something like slow time, kite around the bubble and get 1 shot here and there, well then a faster combo may be better.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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#17
Perhaps it is just my personal experience has been odd, but I am yet to see a two-handed weapon with comparable DPS than dual-wielding (Demon Hunter and Wizard). They are always a good 5+ less DPS, in addition to the tactical issues longer waiting to kite and less procs. A Demon Hunter has WAY more DPS than the screen suggests with dual Hand Crossbows, as you can spam Hungering Arrows to get multiple missiles moving around at once, as opposed to one powerful hit at a time from a Heavy Crossbow (even with a Quiver).
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#18
(05-19-2012, 02:13 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: Perhaps it is just my personal experience has been odd, but I am yet to see a two-handed weapon with comparable DPS than dual-wielding (Demon Hunter and Wizard). They are always a good 5+ less DPS, in addition to the tactical issues longer waiting to kite and less procs. A Demon Hunter has WAY more DPS than the screen suggests with dual Hand Crossbows, as you can spam Hungering Arrows to get multiple missiles moving around at once, as opposed to one powerful hit at a time from a Heavy Crossbow (even with a Quiver).

On my monk I managed to find a rare Daibo that was actually more DPS than dual wielding so I switched up my skills a bit to take more advantage of the big heavy hitting weapon (exploding palm was quite awesome with it), but probably only a level or so later I was back to dual wielding and then switched up my skills again. Since I had extra spirit regen with the gear that I had with the daibo, I could go ahead and use the massive spirit dumps without having to use the quick spirit generators, but once I lost the extra spirit regen from the other gear it was trickier to get enough spirit to spam my daibo and had to resort to using fists of thunder again. For the monk gear decides my skills more than my personal preference. Or at least now that I've gotten my head out of somewhere dark and smelly and have gotten my HC girl higher level. Wink
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#19
I just tested the damage formula using Wizard spells, and it does indeed work as one expects:

Damage per attack = (Base damage combined on all equiped items) * (1 + Class Primary Stat/100) * (Skill Modifier)

Now, the key here is that the Skill Modifier is a straight multiplier, not an additive multiplier. At one point, the game guide used to list skill modifiers like "+150% weapon damage." However, the tooltips (and current game guide) are correct in that they are straight multipliers. This is crucial for, say, the choice between Magic Missle - Charged Blast (143% weapon damage) and Split (fires 3 missles for 50% damage each). If they were additive, then the 3 missles for Split would be doing 150% weapon damage each, while Charged Blast would be doing 243% weapon damage, making Split an interesting choice for damage, if you're likely to hit with at least two of the missles. However, instead the comparison is 3 missles for 50% weapon damage versus 1 missle for 143% damage, making Charged Blast the natural choice, if one does not take into account the additional Prodigy procs that Split gives.

However, I have found a bug with Magic Weapon. If you cast it, the actual damage seems to work the way you would expect -- that is, spells are increased in damage by 10%. However, the damage dps listed in the character screen shows an increase of exactly 21%, which is what you would expect if the 10% multiplier was applied twice. Again, by my testing, the spell appears to be working correctly. This appears to be a display bug.
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