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So not a hate crime?
01-13-2017, 10:01 PM (This post was last modified: 01-14-2017 12:01 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #41
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-13-2017 09:02 PM)kandrathe Wrote:  My guess is that you just want to troll FIT.

Partially true, but sadly, I'm pretty sure at this point he really believes the crap he says....so in that sense he isn't trolling.

He is trolling in another way though, as he almost certainly used the Chicago incident as an opportunity to make this thread so he can get on his racist/pro-slavery soap box, and run off at the mouth about how great he thinks white people are and how thankful POC should be towards them. Him making this thread is extremely distasteful and shows he has absolutely no tact, but I guess I can't expect anything more from a Fascie. He knew it would be only a matter of time before I responded, and I made the mistake of feeding him. But I am done with him for good now.

And yea, time to close this thread. It should never have been made in the first place - I almost want to go back and just delete all my posts pertaining to this sick, vile pro-slavery laced thread and pretend it never existed, but most of my posts are already quoted now so there's no point I guess.

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01-13-2017, 10:10 PM (This post was last modified: 01-16-2017 08:15 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #42
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-13-2017 09:53 PM)Ashock Wrote:  I do not troll. However, I reserve the right to discontinue conversations when I feel I am wasting my time. I thought I was pretty clear when I drew a parallel with my comment about ceasing to watch mainstream media.
I may be "main stream", but I'm not media. I too do not watch TV news, but I attempt to form opinions based upon truth. The article you cited on crime statistics seemed about right, I didn't dispute it. Mostly since it was not the point I was making. The question is why are black youth in such a societal hole? It is possible, with diligence and luck to escape the hood, but why is it so much harder?

P.S. I wonder too Taem, if it's maybe a bit of racial paranoia mixed in as well. Reference --> http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14462...l_Paranoia

It is hard to read the nonverbal cues of people you know. I imagine that in every black/white encounter of non-friends that the suspicion detector is on high alert. The perceived racial tension eases when you can communicate "I truly like you for who you are. " It's not so easy with all the baggage shoved between us, and those centuries of bad behavior is regurgitated for political purposes.

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01-14-2017, 09:35 PM
Post: #43
RE: So not a hate crime?
It's systemic to their culture. As I said before, reverse racism, the "everyone is out the get me BECAUSE I'm black," card. This is partially the fault of politicians trying to right the system with affirmative action and changing the term 'blacks' to 'African American' causing the victim mentality, however at this point, the blacks in America today are perpetuating their own demise with this toxic logic. I've heard it been said before, and not just on TV shows, that blacks should only he raised by blacks so they can understand the culture; I ovetheard this being said several times in my life from black people looking at someone who was white who had a black baby with them (adoption maybe?). It's clearly a choice to resist the system... that the majority of blacks in America feel they aren't even part of this society. If they could overcome the victim mentality, they could improve their lives. I literally cannot tell you how many times I've had to deal with angry or upset black customers whose only gripe is with their perception of inequality which was purely fabricated from their own mal perceived fantasies. I've had issues like this before of course with several different people from all walks of life, but never on a scale where I'd say roughly 75% of the given group (black people in this case) would complain due to their perceived prejudices (which wasn't true, but they honestly believed it). This is the real issue not being addressed, the major elephant in the room, and the political system that perpetuates the mentality by trying to fix it constantly.

Religion is all about maintaining belief in the absence of proof and rationalizing that belief in the face of contradicting evidence, hence why it is called "faith".
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01-15-2017, 12:41 AM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2017 12:55 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #44
RE: So not a hate crime?
The majority of "blacks"?

I've certainly met tons of those kinds that are terrible people, but they come in all colors. I don't think you can really generalize based on anecdotes.

I agree that the black-white dichotomy is pretty damned racist (or whatever the hell it's called these days) in and of itself, and leaves out quite a few people, but there are also many that have tried to better their lives and the narrative that they don't, also seems to be covered up pretty damned well by mainstream media as well, say Asians fighting against discrimination doesn't get the same coverage. Though I guess it's getting better in the sense that racial slurs against minorities are getting less acceptable-- you just don't get that many people just blurting out racial shit against people as you did 20 years ago as much.

It goes in all different directions.

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01-15-2017, 04:48 AM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2017 05:24 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #45
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-14-2017 09:35 PM)Taem Wrote:  It's systemic to their culture.

Stopped reading after that. Another closet racist exposed, though you are guilty of racism in the past. FOAD (I'll let you guess that stands for).




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"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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01-15-2017, 06:28 AM
Post: #46
RE: So not a hate crime?
It could be the LBJ welfare state and government supported entitlement culture perpetuating class warfare. It could be the bipartisan rush to sign onto crime bills incarcerating mostly poor people. It might be racism. It could be the plethora of race merchants like Jesse Jackson, who install themselves as arbitrators in the business of race equality, so long as they get power or a cut of the profits. There is an industry and political purpose for keeping us at war with each other. But, it is likely all of the above.

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01-18-2017, 07:45 PM
Post: #47
RE: So not a hate crime?
Quote:I don't think you can really generalize based on anecdotes.

But now there's the rub, right? It's difficult to quantify this type of reverse racism, yet most everyone has experienced it in one way shape or form. Seeing the whole BLM group evolve into what they represent today, all the news coverage of young black men resisting officers due to their perceived prejudices against them (which aren't true) and the actions taken against them to subdue them and the resultant riots afterward... where is the hero that stands up and calls them out for what this is? It's so fucking obvious, it's ridiculous! When an officer of the law can't even do his/her job for fear of being labeled a racist and losing their job or worse simply for arresting a non cooperative black individual, I'd say the fucking system is broken, and there is a serious underlying issue not being addressed. I've seen on the news officers relieved of duty and charged with murder *due to public pressure* when the force already knew the officer was innocent, and the poor officer goes to court and of course wins because they were innocent all along, but they have to play this game for who? For the protesters who will riot... and who are these protesters? What are they protesting? It's not unfair treatment, because these cases have evidence to the contrary. It is black peoples perception of inequality that is at issue here. Get a clue! Like I said, it's so obvious what's happening, so why won't anyone call it out for what it is?

And no, I'm not like Trump who said, "I love Chinese people. I have them working for me all over the world". I actually have friends of every color in the rainbow, and they can see this same issue as I. I don't have to give out the names and addresses of my black friends, but you can trust neither myself nor my friends have a racist bone in our bodies. The reason problem here is thus issue is political taboo/suicide to address for any politician, and the methods our politicians have used wothin the past few decades to "correct" it have only made it far worse. In the early 80's, my wife grew up in orange County/Los Angeles, and they (politicians) started trying "fix" the perception of minority only communities and forced school kids from one district to travel to the inner city and vice versa. Needles to say it was a fucking disaster for everyone and just another failed attempt that only cause more feelings of being a victim for minorities.

Religion is all about maintaining belief in the absence of proof and rationalizing that belief in the face of contradicting evidence, hence why it is called "faith".
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01-18-2017, 10:39 PM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 10:41 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #48
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-18-2017 07:45 PM)Taem Wrote:  
Quote:I don't think you can really generalize based on anecdotes.

But now there's the rub, right? It's difficult to quantify this type of reverse racism, yet most everyone has experienced it in one way shape or form.
But, also there is real racism. With media access today, it is easy to document every case of excessive use of force to achieve a political (power) goal. But, like with Mỹ Lai in Vietnam, perception and public opinion really do matter. Every soldier is not a butcher, but every one got labeled as a suspect.

Quote:Seeing the whole BLM group evolve into what they represent today, all the news coverage of young black men resisting officers due to their perceived prejudices against them (which aren't true) and the actions taken against them to subdue them and the resultant riots afterward... where is the hero that stands up and calls them out for what this is? It's so fucking obvious, it's ridiculous! When an officer of the law can't even do his/her job for fear of being labeled a racist and losing their job or worse simply for arresting a non cooperative black individual, I'd say the fucking system is broken, and there is a serious underlying issue not being addressed.
I think it is a semi-revolutionary political agenda actually, a naked power grab by a few who diverted the BLM brand into something it never was. Eventually, I think, like "The Tea Party" the movement will act out negatively enough with the outcome of shedding its original meaning and supporters,

Quote:I've seen on the news officers relieved of duty and charged with murder *due to public pressure* when the force already knew the officer was innocent, and the poor officer goes to court and of course wins because they were innocent all along, but they have to play this game for who? For the protesters who will riot... and who are these protesters? What are they protesting? It's not unfair treatment, because these cases have evidence to the contrary. It is black peoples perception of inequality that is at issue here. Get a clue! Like I said, it's so obvious what's happening, so why won't anyone call it out for what it is?
Which is why we should kiss every Brit we know for giving us the English common law system, where people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. I was explaining the Napoleonic code to my son yesterday...

Quote:And no, I'm not like Trump who said, "I love Chinese people. I have them working for me all over the world". I actually have friends of every color in the rainbow, and they can see this same issue as I. I don't have to give out the names and addresses of my black friends, but you can trust neither myself nor my friends have a racist bone in our bodies. The reason problem here is thus issue is political taboo/suicide to address for any politician, and the methods our politicians have used within the past few decades to "correct" it have only made it far worse. In the early 80's, my wife grew up in orange County/Los Angeles, and they (politicians) started trying "fix" the perception of minority only communities and forced school kids from one district to travel to the inner city and vice versa. Needles to say it was a fucking disaster for everyone and just another failed attempt that only cause more feelings of being a victim for minorities.
While I believe there is this phenomena of inherent bias, I don't think things were this bad a decade ago...

Quote:"There's a tremendous gap of achievement between rich and poor, white and minority. This, too, leaves a divided society. And whatever the causes, the effect is discrimination. My friend Phyllis Hunter (ph), of Houston, Texas, calls 'reading' the new civil right. Equality in our country will remain a distant dream until every child, of every background, learns so that he or she may strive and rise in this world. No child in America should be segregated by low expectations, imprisoned by illiteracy, abandoned to frustration and the darkness of self-doubt."
- GWB to the NAACP

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01-18-2017, 11:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 11:30 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #49
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-18-2017 07:45 PM)Taem Wrote:  I don't have to give out the names and addresses of my black friends, but you can trust neither myself nor my friends have a racist bone in our bodies.

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Of course, as usual, everything in your post was a load of baseless assertions, fallacies, false narratives, and just horseshit in general, but this comment here, wow. It truly had me LOL'ing. I can't speak for your friends, but if YOU don't have a racist bone in your body, then pigs can fly, the earth is flat, and water ain't wet.

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"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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01-18-2017, 11:48 PM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 11:54 PM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #50
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-18-2017 07:45 PM)Taem Wrote:  
Quote:I don't think you can really generalize based on anecdotes.

But now there's the rub, right? It's difficult to quantify this type of reverse racism, yet most everyone has experienced it in one way shape or form. Seeing the whole BLM group evolve into what they represent today, all the news coverage of young black men resisting officers due to their perceived prejudices against them (which aren't true) and the actions taken against them to subdue them and the resultant riots afterward... where is the hero that stands up and calls them out for what this is? It's so fucking obvious, it's ridiculous! When an officer of the law can't even do his/her job for fear of being labeled a racist and losing their job or worse simply for arresting a non cooperative black individual, I'd say the fucking system is broken, and there is a serious underlying issue not being addressed. I've seen on the news officers relieved of duty and charged with murder *due to public pressure* when the force already knew the officer was innocent, and the poor officer goes to court and of course wins because they were innocent all along, but they have to play this game for who? For the protesters who will riot... and who are these protesters? What are they protesting? It's not unfair treatment, because these cases have evidence to the contrary. It is black peoples perception of inequality that is at issue here. Get a clue! Like I said, it's so obvious what's happening, so why won't anyone call it out for what it is?

I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with anything I said.

All that sentence says is that I don't think any voice can speak for the majority of any race, and bringing up extremists groups is like trying to place white people as the KKK. I know I would not let any random asshole speak for a group I am associated with. As for BLM, I have read quite a few media reports that they are not a peaceful kind, at least some supporters, so there are those that are critical.

And I certainly never claimed that that any of these things were mutually exclusive, that is a white person can still suffer from the effects of of the establishment too; it's not a zero sum game. And practically everyone here has a thing against the pitifulness of the so-called "Identity Politics"

Quote:And no, I'm not like Trump who said, "I love Chinese people. I have them working for me all over the world". I actually have friends of every color in the rainbow, and they can see this same issue as I.

Unlike other people that you may talk with, please don't feel the need to be defensive. I am not claiming you are racist, so there's no need to defend against that accusation. You might even be more tolerant of people than I am and I don't apologize for who I am. I don't think anyone should, unless they start imposing their will on others.

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Yesterday, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 03:42 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #51
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-18-2017 11:48 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  reports that they are not a peaceful kind

Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily. Since the police officers who harass, assault, profile, and murder unarmed and innocent poc EVERY day are far from being peaceful. When you oppress people, they are going to rise up against you at some point, often violently so, and in such a case, its justifiable. BLM is hardly revolutionary at this time, and from my perspective, I think they need to radicalize further than they are currently. But I digress.

Quote:that is a white person can still suffer from the effects of of the establishment too; it's not a zero sum game.


They do, but not to nearly the same extent or context that blacks and other poc do. Statistics across the board reflect this - from unemployment, income, to education, access to healthcare, life expectancy, poverty and homelessness, percentage of people incarcerated, everything really.

Simply being white means you start with a considerable social advantage from the day you are born, and it makes your every day life much easier than being a black person in the same class does, regardless of how poor little privileged white people like Ashock and Taem choose to see it.

Quote:And practically everyone here has a thing against the pitifulness of the so-called "Identity Politics"

This is one (of several) reasons why I ultimately chose Marxism as my political framework, is because of what IP has become. Let me explain.

You see, I think its the opposite, really. Many people here, and in general, focus way too much on "identity politics" and pay little or no attention to class politics - and when they do look at class, its usually only by income and not by ownership of the instruments of production due to its radical implications. Identity politics isn't ENTIRELY worthless - poc suffer more in the present system than whites do, men have unjust privilege and power over women, straights over LGBTQ persons, ableds over disabeleds, etc. Alot of IP stems from various feminist movements, the civil rights movements and BLM, the LGBTQ liberation movement, and so on.

The problem of starting with identity politics, is that it is a dead end, because it inevitably turns too far inward and focuses too much on the self. In the worst case scenario, it just becames another from of discrimination dressed up as 'Left wing' politics. Further, it has the natural consequence of downplaying or even ignoring entirely the larger issues of class, capitalism & imperialism, and revolution. This is one of the primary issues with liberal conceptions of IP.

On the otherhand, Marxists and other revolutionary leftist movements must becareful to avoid class reductionism, and undoubtedly certain sects of these groups have been guilty of this. Class does need to be our starting point - but it shouldn't be our only point; it has to allow for intersectionality. Feminists, minorities, LGBTQ, disabled persons, and other oppressed/marginalized groups should absolutely have an involvement, an important one at that, in any socialist/communist movement to emancipate society from the shackles of capitalism. Identity politics without socialism is useless and a slippery slope to being reactionary, or at best it doesn't lead to meaningful social change; and socialism without intersectionality is deterministic, vulgar economics.

Finally, identity politics has become something of a pejorative not only because of its over emphasis by liberals as I explained earlier in my post, but right-wingers are even worse when it comes to IP. For people like Ashock, Taem and similar reactionary minded persons, identity politics is of utmost importance - in particular, the identity of white, rich, straight, heterosexual males and the preservation of their dominant position in society. Everyone else that doesn't fit that bill be damned, and anyone else that wants the same rights and equality are guilty of 'reverse racism', 'reverse sexism', heterophobia, etc. Right wing identity politics is the most vulgar, obnoxious form of IP and a good reason why IP has become such a dirty word, or should I say term. For all the accusations they make towards leftists for playing the 'race' or 'gender' card, nobody plays those cards more than reactionaries when the privileged status of white males is questioned or challenged. Taem and Ashock have done it throughout this entire thread, that is what the right does, and they do it well. So, their shit-filled false narratives of 'reverse racism' or 'reverse sexism of how white males are supposedly oppressed in society are presented as legitimate public opinion (even when all the statistics and overwhelming evidence reflect the exact opposite).

Here's an idea: the achievement or striving for the achievement of equality and thus the abolition of white, male privilege does NOT equate to racism or sexism. White males can cry about it all they want. It still isn't racist or sexist to challenge the privileged status of white males. Not even close. Them crying about it, as they have done this entire thread, is in fact evidence of THEIR racist and sexist views.

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Yesterday, 03:39 AM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 03:41 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #52
RE: So not a hate crime?
(Yesterday 01:45 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  
(01-18-2017 11:48 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  reports that they are not a peaceful kind

Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily. Since the police officers who harass, assault, profile, and murder unarmed and innocent poc EVERY day are far from being peaceful. When you oppress people, they are going to rise up against you at some point, often violently so, and in such a case, its justifiable. BLM is hardly revolutionary at this time, and from my perspective, I think they need to radicalize further than they are currently. But I digress.

Ah, well that can be up for discussion. But my main point was that the media isn't necessarily biased for them. Some outlets might be and I tend to get worried when they put their own value judgements in, telling you how to think. But in the end, I'm a pleb that got much of my info from "mainstream" outlets and they still haven't deceived me into thinking they were pure and white (whoops).

Quote:
Quote:that is a white person can still suffer from the effects of of the establishment too; it's not a zero sum game.


They do, but not to nearly the same extent or context that blacks and other poc do. Statistics across the board reflect this - from unemployment, income, to education, access to healthcare, life expectancy, poverty and homelessness, percentage of people incarcerated, everything really.

I like to think about as apples and oranges. (Kinda like pick your oppression?).

But the sentiment I've been reading is that there might be some white people that feel like they're being constantly held accountable for things or maybe their opinion doesn't matter as much as a result. So sometimes the left might go a bit far. For example, it's a no-brainer for me to suggest that as a dude, that when I walk home at night alone that I don't have to worry as much about sexual harassment as a female. But then you have all those "Men are rapists" crowd.

Umm, and yea class is buried underneath all this, almost intentionally. And I do see the opposite of extremeness identity politics on both ends-- I guess nobody's shit stinks. And I will have to wrap things up before MCcarthy rises from his grave and comes after me. I'd watch out if I were you, though.

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Yesterday, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 06:54 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #53
RE: So not a hate crime?
Well, true enough that there are extremists on the left that go too far into saying that "all men are bad", or from a racial context that "all white people are bad". But, you'd have to search far and wide to find these kinds of people. The folks in the Chicago incident are a tiny minority, yet people like Ashock will use such things as political opportunity.

For instance, someone such as Valerie Solanas is one such over-the-top individual. Basically, her intense hatred of patriarchy made her desire not just equality for women as part of the goal for leftists, but for the actual supreme domination of women over men. It's hard to call her leftist, since she is basically advocating for the extermination and enslavement of all males and a femme-fascist society or something like it. I am all for the abolishment of capitalism and the patriarchy that comes along with it. But for the abolishment of males as persons, as a whole? Yea, this is inconceivably over the top. It was like it was almost personal for her, a manifesto for revenge, rather than the genuine liberation and realization of self-determination for her collective sex. Even my fiance, who is a radical feminist, thinks her politics are nutty.

The same ofc is true for race. Not all white people are racist, far from it. All are privileged though, and its a matter of us recognizing our privilege and taking steps to achieve equality, rather than trying to hold on to our privilege as many of them do.

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Today, 03:26 AM
Post: #54
RE: So not a hate crime?
(01-05-2017 10:31 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  In before the troll is fed.
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