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Communism and the Left
07-17-2017, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 02:57 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #21
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-17-2017 05:03 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  No, its "only" somewhere between 8-12 million per year, almost every source on Google has the numbers in this range - but regardless of the numbers, that does not vindicate the system of its crimes against humanity.
How about reputable sources, like WHO, or the Lancet.

"Undernutritition causes 45% of child deaths, resulting in 3.1 million deaths annually"

So, yeah, about that capitalism... Let's talk about starvation in Venezuela... you know, one of the few remaining pro-Cuba, pro-socialist regimes...

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07-17-2017, 04:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 08:02 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #22
RE: Communism and the Left
https://factcheckinginjusticefacts.wordp...al-hameli/

About 20-25K people starve to death per day under capitalism, most of them children age 5 or under via preventable causes. Do the math.

For real, I'm done with this silly thread. The steaming turd of a system known as capitalism has killed more people in the last 10 years alone than even the most inflated totals who died under so-called "communist" regimes given by bourgeois historians. It isn't even close, especially if we take the totality of capitalism's 300+ year history into account. One comrade did provide some numbers:

Quote:1,559,657,267 Murdered in the Name of Profit

Japanese Imperialism 12,705,105

Imperialism is the act of a nation’s ruling class forcing its control over another nation. This is done to gain control of markets, natural resources and labour markets for profit. These things are not spent according to need, but for the profit for a small number of individuals.

Nanking Massacre 300,000
Japanese Bombing of China 71,105
Japanese Imperialism 6,000,000
Japanese Occupation of East Timor 70,000
Japanese Massacre of Singapore 100,000
Japanese Democides 5,964,000
Japanese Germ Warfare in China 200,000

US Actions in Iraq 3,500,000

As usual, people seem to have forgotten that the US constantly supported Saddam throughout his entire reign as ruler of Iraq. They were instrumental in his rise to power as he was an operative of the CIA and was assigned to kill his predecessor. He ultimately failed to kill him, but stayed on as ruler in US favour until the War on Terror.

The Desert Storm War was the US reaction to Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait, until that time Saddam thought as a US client he could do whatever he wanted. When he didn’t lean after that war, Iraq was invaded again. The second time it was for trading oil in Euros, that was the real reason for the second invasion.

Iraq (Germany Selling Poison Gas to Saddam) 400,000
Rebelling Shia Killed by Saddam 300,000
Iraq (Desert Storm) 500,000
US Bombing Iraq Water Supply 1991 500,000
US imposed sanctions on Iraq 1,000,000
Iraq (War on Terror) 1,300,000

US Imperialism 387,697,326

Imperialism is the act of a nation’s ruling class forcing its control over another nation. This is done to gain control of markets, natural resources and labour markets for profit. These things are spent according to need, but for the profit for a small number of individuals.

US Aggression on Latin America 6,300,000
Invasion of the Philippines 650,000
Afghanistan (War on Terror) 1,200,000
Vietnam War – including bombing Cambodia & Laos 10,000,000
Korean War 10,000,000
US Bombing of Yugoslavia 300,000
Iraq-Iran War (US pushed and funded both sides) 1,000,000
US Intervention in the Congo 5,000,000
1898 American War vs. Philippine 3,000,000
Spanish-American War 100,000
US Made Famine in Bangladesh 1974 100,000
US Civil War (War of Financial vs. Agriculture Capitalists) 700,000
Tamils killed by US backed Sri Lankan Gov. 30,000
Palestinians Killed by Israel 1947-2002 826,626
CIA Backed Khmer Rouge 2,035,000
US Backed Dictator General Suharto 1,200,000
Philippine Insurrection (Fighting US Dictator) 220,000
US Revolutionary War 35,700 (if over throwing a monarch in Russia is a crime, it’s a crime in the US as well)
Native American Genocide 95,000,000
Indonesian Anti-Communist Purges 10,000,000
African Slave Trade 150,000,000

British Imperialism 61,500,000

The Bengal Famine of 1943 10,000,000
British Occupation of India 20,000,000
Famine in Held British India 30,000,000
Irish Potato Famine 1,500,000

(British landlords refused to sell remaining potatoes to starving Irish, they said markets demanded they be sold to other British who had more money.)

Other Capitalist Events and Regimes 17,666,000

South African Apartheid 3,500,000
Pre-Communist Russia 1,066,000
Spanish Civil War 400,000
Massacre of the Paris Commune 20,000
First Indochina 1946-1954 1,500,000
Belgian Congo Colonization 1,000,000
French Madagascar 80,000
Nigerian Civil War 1,000,000
Rwandan Genocide 1,000,000
Dutch East Indies 25,000
Second Boer War 75,000
Stateless Capitalist Somalia 1,000,000

Famine of 1932-33 7,000,000
(Famine was made by Kulaks who destroyed massive amounts of crops to protest collectivization)

General Capitalism: 980,488,836

Capitalism: A system designed for the production of commodities for personal wealth not actual need. A system designed to absolutely reject the value of human life in favour of the profit motive.

Union Carbide Bhopal Disaster 15,000
Hurricane Katrina (deliberate faulty construction) 1,836
Industrial Revolution Kids & Adults USA 100,000
Burma-Siam Railroad Construction 116,000
Great Depression (America alone) 12,000,000
Capitalist Policy in India 1947 – 1990 120,000,000
Children Died from Hunger 2009 5,256,000
Children Killed by Hunger or preventable Diseases during the 1990s-present 250,000,000+
Cigarette Related Deaths Worldwide (1960 – 2010) 300,000,000

The World Wars: Imperialism 76,500,000

World War One 16,500,000
World War Two 60,000,000

Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000

Ouch. And even if some of these numbers are inflated - or you only counted certain events based on specific personal criteria, the resulting number would still easily eclipse even the most outrageous estimates of those who died under all "communist" regimes combined, multiple times over. And of course, there is the argument that the deaths under those regimes themselves can be attributed to capitalism, since it was the capitalist countries who were the aggressors and waged an international war to contain socialism and do everything in their power to ruin it - rather than it being attributed to some inherent flaw of socialism itself.

And finally, this list doesn't even include: early and undocumented deaths from being overworked, lack of health care. Then, there is the non-lethal effects, such as mental neurosis from the everyday stress that results from living and working under capitalism – these incalculable points are massive, along with every other non-death related crime committed by the capitalist system.

Anyways, before I exit this dumb thread which should have never been created in the first place, I will quote a fellow comrade regarding the original topic:

Quote:The Nazi’s were NOT socialists. Ownership of production was in the hands of private individuals. Socialism is the opposite. The Nazis believe Aryans were a superior race, socialists believe everyone is equal. Nazis are the opposite of socialism. Stop trying to pass off right wing capitalist crimes onto us.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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07-17-2017, 08:03 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 08:35 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #23
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-17-2017 04:10 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  https://factcheckinginjusticefacts.wordp...al-hameli/
Fact checking your Wordpress fact checker...

UNICEF
   

World Food Program
   

It is clear where we need to focus our aid. The red appears most everywhere there is a Islamic theocracy (ISIS) based civil war.

[Image: ufmr-map-of-world-2015_unicef1.png]

I wonder if the sum of that "one comrades" number plucking exercise results in zero world population. You forgot all the early deaths due to health issues caused by being fat and lazy. A condition enabled by exploiting the worlds resources. Heck, I think all the deaths of all the societies that ever existed were caused by our social and economic systems, except those who died of old aged natural causes ( i.e. giving zero credit for any positive effects on life span).

If only... If only... we subscribed to the Communist fantasy... no one would die ever!

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07-17-2017, 09:26 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 09:43 PM by Ashock.)
Post: #24
RE: Communism and the Left
I've not really read the bulk of the content of this thread, but here's the bottom line. Over the last 100 years, there's been numerous communist countries. Without counting the Warsaw Pact countries as separate entities, as they really were not, we have off the top of my head:

USSR
China
N Korea
Vietnam
Laos
Cuba

Any of them good for their people in any way?

Not true communism? That's the only type communism that can exist when humans in large numbers get together. How many more great experiments do people need until they get it through their heads that collectivism on a government scale does not work?

Nazis only ruled for roughly 10-12 years and basically in 1.5 countries, not counting the occupied ones, naturally. The comparison is laughable. Communism is significantly more insidious and more difficult to root out. The open aggression of Germany basically guaranteed that the nazi party would not stay in power for more than a handful of years. The only way that communism could have been stamped out quickly, was if Stalin followed some of his generals' advice towards the end of WW2 and continued to march through Europe. He did not.

Naturally, capitalism is just as bad, or possibly worse.....





..... according to some of the brainier members here.
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07-17-2017, 11:16 PM
Post: #25
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-17-2017 09:26 PM)Ashock Wrote:  ..... according to some of the brainier members here.
Evidently facts don't matter. Only zeal matters.

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07-17-2017, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 11:26 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #26
RE: Communism and the Left
Indisputable fact: capitalism has killed more people than communism. And in fact, ALOT more.



/thread.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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07-17-2017, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 11:51 PM by Ashock.)
Post: #27
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-17-2017 11:21 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Indisputable fact: capitalism has killed more people than communism. And in fact, ALOT more.



/thread.

Capitalism is significantly more widespread than communism and has existed for a significantly longer amount of time, thank god. Therefore, even if you take your capitalism numbers and suppositions at face value, which would be naive, but even if you do, it would more than make up the difference.

real /thread

Have yourself a good day, threadboy.

(07-17-2017 11:16 PM)kandrathe Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 09:26 PM)Ashock Wrote:  ..... according to some of the brainier members here.
Evidently facts don't matter. Only zeal matters.

Yes, this is how that side operates.
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07-18-2017, 12:15 AM (This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 12:48 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #28
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-17-2017 11:46 PM)Ashock Wrote:  Capitalism is significantly more widespread than communism and has existed for a significantly longer amount of time

Irrelevant. It has still killed more people in a shorter amount of time. More people have died living under capitalism in the last 15 years of its existence alone, than every "communist" regime combined - which as stated before, are also attributed to capitalism anyways.

Quote:it would more than make up the difference.

No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even come close.

It isn't just about people dying under capitalism anyways - far from it. It is also the daily exploitation, oppression, and misery from just living and working under it that takes its toll on people, generation after generation, in various ways. Whether they are overworked (sometimes even to death), poor and/or experiencing the miseries of living in dangerous and impoverished conditions, homelessness, and often suffering mental neurotic conditions such as chronic stress and anxiety (which can often lead to more severe health conditions like heart disease or cancer) - the number of people that suffer from these things is incalcuable. Lack of access to healthcare, and an untold amount who are not impoverished but are one tragedy away from being homeless or financially ruined. List is endless.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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07-18-2017, 02:02 AM (This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 02:37 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #29
RE: Communism and the Left
Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repitition). This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repitition alone to substitute for real arguments.

[Image: chartoftheday_3410_global_child_mortality_rate_n.jpg]


[Image: ourworldindata_life-expectancy-cumulativ...-years.png]

Hmmm, whoops. I guess that Capitalism is actually lowering the mortality rate.

[Image: Two-centuries-World-as-100-people.png]

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07-18-2017, 02:04 AM
Post: #30
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-18-2017 02:02 AM)kandrathe Wrote:  Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again

Case closed.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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07-18-2017, 03:41 AM
Post: #31
RE: Communism and the Left
(07-18-2017 02:04 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 02:02 AM)kandrathe Wrote:  Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again

Case closed.

Again. Lol. Big Grin. You crack me up.

Btw, I'm right, and you're wrong.

Case closed. No backs, or I'm telling.

I can tell you earned your debate skills as the only spoiled child.

HAHAHAHAHA!

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07-18-2017, 04:03 AM (This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 04:29 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #32
RE: Communism and the Left
LOL. Spoiled? Eh, maybe a little sometimes Smile. But I would say my younger brother was more so. Also, when I did get spoiled, I never asked to be, hehe.

The funny thing is, for all my rebelliousness, I've been the one who is much better at stayin' out of trouble than he was/is. I am much more introverted than him, so that could be part of why.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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08-01-2017, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2017 10:03 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #33
RE: Communism and the Left
https://www.themarysue.com/spike-bench/

Absolutely disgusting and shameful. The capitalist systems brutality in its never ending pursuit of profit knows no bounds. I would destroy that thing if I came across it, or at least fill the holes with super glue or cement.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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08-02-2017, 06:29 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 06:32 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #34
RE: Communism and the Left
(08-01-2017 09:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  https://www.themarysue.com/spike-bench/

Absolutely disgusting and shameful. The capitalist systems brutality in its never ending pursuit of profit knows no bounds. I would destroy that thing if I came across it, or at least fill the holes with super glue or cement.

Fabian Brunsing in Germany seems to be your enemy.

https://vimeo.com/channels/urbaninterventions/page:1

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