Post Reply 
English Should be Revised
08-15-2017, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2017 04:53 AM by Taem.)
Post: #1
English Should be Revised
A little rant here on something that has always bothered me. I don't suppose many here know why English is so difficult to pronounce, do they?

Check out this short article: https://blog.esl-languages.com/blog/lear...irregular/

Where is says, "The Great Vowel Shift", it is rather well known that around this time, vowels were added in to confuse commoners and keep them illiterate, which was important for maintaining power.

Anyway, there should be consistency. The entire language needs a revamp where the letters say exactly how they are, meaning we'd a need a lot of new letters and simply vowels to a singular letter sound. One of the things that pisses me off the most is when I hear children learning spelling and the teachers are spewing what they're trained to teach about words and vowels in particular, and according to them words always should sound phonetically how they're spelt, except vowels that might change them to say their name, and then this:

Words / Sound Like
on = aw
of = uh
oh = o
to = ew

No consistency. Does not follow any logical format for vowels or grammar. Basically, English as we know it is nothing more than an act of memorization, with just enough logical fallacy thrown in to seem like logical syntax to confuse us, lol. I'd like to see someone revamp the entire language. There are writers, such as JR Tolken who have written entire languages. Linguists who have deciphered the languages of lost cultures. Why not tap one of them (living ones of course) to do this? I guess it's not a priority on many peoples plates, but I think it'd make learning this language so much easier for everyone!

"What good fortune it is for governments that the people they govern do not think." - Adolf Hitler
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 09:19 AM
Post: #2
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 12:44 AM)Taem Wrote:  Where is says, "The Great Vowel Shift", it is rather well known that around this time, vowels were added in to confuse commoners and keep them illiterate, which was important for maintaining power.

Do you have a source for this claim? It seems extraordinarily unlikely to me.

Quote: Why not tap one of them (living ones of course) to do this? I guess it's not a priority on many peoples plates, but I think it'd make learning this language so much easier for everyone!

Lots of people have proposed simplified phonetic systems for English orthography. The problem is not the lack of suitably talented linguists. The problem is network externalities. English is already known by over a billion people, and they are united by nothing except speaking English. The cost of altering it is enormous, and more importantly, who could possibly exert enough authority over English to change it?

-Jester
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 01:46 PM
Post: #3
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 09:19 AM)Jester Wrote:  
(08-15-2017 12:44 AM)Taem Wrote:  Why not tap one of them (living ones of course) to do this? I guess it's not a priority on many peoples plates, but I think it'd make learning this language so much easier for everyone!

Lots of people have proposed simplified phonetic systems for English orthography. The problem is not the lack of suitably talented linguists. The problem is network externalities. English is already known by over a billion people, and they are united by nothing except speaking English. The cost of altering it is enormous, and more importantly, who could possibly exert enough authority over English to change it?

-Jester

Just take a look at dialectics to see how different English is around the world. The use of words across the US alone can be mystifying.

For instance, what type of drink is Pepsi? Depending on where you're form, it's a soda, a pop, a soda pop, or (as in the Southeast US, think Georgia) a coke (note the lack of capitailization).

Sith Warriors - They only class that gets a new room added to their ship after leaving Hoth, they get a Brooncloset

Einstein said Everything is Relative.
Heisenberg said Everything is Uncertain.
Therefore, everything is relatively uncertain.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 02:48 PM
Post: #4
RE: English Should be Revised
"The vowel shift" may be an uncharitable view of when Americans started changing vowels to better reflect pronunciation and generally poke a finger in the eye of the monarchy. Like "colour" to "color".
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2017 04:50 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #5
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 01:46 PM)Lissa Wrote:  
(08-15-2017 09:19 AM)Jester Wrote:  
(08-15-2017 12:44 AM)Taem Wrote:  Why not tap one of them (living ones of course) to do this? I guess it's not a priority on many peoples plates, but I think it'd make learning this language so much easier for everyone!

Lots of people have proposed simplified phonetic systems for English orthography. The problem is not the lack of suitably talented linguists. The problem is network externalities. English is already known by over a billion people, and they are united by nothing except speaking English. The cost of altering it is enormous, and more importantly, who could possibly exert enough authority over English to change it?

-Jester

Just take a look at dialectics to see how different English is around the world. The use of words across the US alone can be mystifying.

For instance, what type of drink is Pepsi? Depending on where you're form, it's a soda, a pop, a soda pop, or (as in the Southeast US, think Georgia) a coke (note the lack of capitailization).

It's funny that you mention this. Me and my fiance constantly have the debate on what sweet, carbonated fizzy drinks should be called. She insists it is "pop", I say it should be "soda". I'm from Los Angeles, she's from Twin Falls Idaho. We will never, ever agree on what this should be called, though sometimes she slips up and accidently calls it a soda, to which I smile and say "see, you are getting it right now" before she corrects herself and calls it pop Big Grin

I guess in the south everything is a coke - regardless if you are drinking root beer, sprite, coke, pepsi, or an orange soda of some type. Seems odd to me, as it would make ordering rather awkward. What do you say, I want a "sprite-coke" if you want sprite?

https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon
http://www.tristr.am/character.php?userid=26

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 06:52 PM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2017 06:57 PM by Taem.)
Post: #6
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 09:19 AM)Jester Wrote:  
(08-15-2017 12:44 AM)Taem Wrote:  Where is says, "The Great Vowel Shift", it is rather well known that around this time, vowels were added in to confuse commoners and keep them illiterate, which was important for maintaining power.

Do you have a source for this claim? It seems extraordinarily unlikely to me.

I recall reading it in a coffee table magazine in a doctors office, I want to say a New Scientist or Nat Geo, as those are usually the first I reach for, followed thereafter by some bullshit pulp or popular op ed piece such as People. I remember the way the viewpoint was expressed made it seem as if, duh, everyone knows this is how it happened and this article is just catching you up on the facts, so I assumed it was something everyone already knew and didn't really take much doubt in that... until now, lol! What, you can't trust whats published in a respected magazine article?!? Treachery! Oh well, I guess I should question everything, even things I think or thought I already knew.

Quote:Lots of people have proposed simplified phonetic systems for English orthography. The problem is not the lack of suitably talented linguists. The problem is network externalities.

Indeed, but it is frustrating nonetheless.

Quote:The cost of altering it is enormous, and more importantly, who could possibly exert enough authority over English to change it?

Overlooking the insane costs of republishing every work of literature, ads, web-pages, etc., if everyone (all the countries) who speaks English could agree on a common way of pronouncing and thus spelling it, then, as you say, you'd still need someone to enforce it, someone with some serious authority. The only way to get all the nations to change their version of English to the new standard without this omnipotent leader would be if the benefits/incentives ($$$) were tantalizing enough, and lets be honest here, other than helping out billions of new English speakers, this would have no financial benefit (actually a financial deficit). I guess it'll not happen in my lifetime.

"What good fortune it is for governments that the people they govern do not think." - Adolf Hitler
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-15-2017, 08:12 PM
Post: #7
RE: English Should be Revised
There is an excellent historical example which illustrates how attempts to standardize a language even when firmly in place for centuries meet with mixed success.

The Real Academia Española (Royal Spanish Academy) was founded in 1713 with the goal of standardizing the Castilian language. As far as spelling is concerned the Academia has been successful up to a point. For example, in many Hispanic countries there is no difference between the pronunciation of the B and the V, as well as the C, S and Z. Casar and cazar are pronounced the same, but clearly are spelled differently.

However, when it comes to standardizing the vocabulary it has been a failure. For example, a simple word like bean is frijol in Mexico, habichuela in Puerto Rico, poroto in Uruguay and judio in Spain.
If you take modern words into consideration the situation is no different. In Spain a computer is ordenador while in Latin America it is either computador or computadora.

The pronunciation of Spanish is also highly variable. Within Spain itself there are several regional differences (for example, seseo, ceseo and distinción), and in Latin America there are a multitude of different accents and Spanish dialects. There is no consistency and this is in spite of the existence of the Real Academia Española for the past three centuries.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtmlWbJ-1vgb3aJmW4DJ7...NntmKgW8Cp]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-16-2017, 10:42 AM
Post: #8
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 02:48 PM)Sir_Die_alot Wrote:  "The vowel shift" may be an uncharitable view of when Americans started changing vowels to better reflect pronunciation and generally poke a finger in the eye of the monarchy. Like "colour" to "color".

That would be remarkable, given that the great vowel shift began 200 years before the founding of the Jamestown Colony, and ended at around the same time.

-Jester
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-17-2017, 09:07 PM
Post: #9
RE: English Should be Revised
Death to unneeded letters!

But considering the impact of the Internet and need for speed, you would expect change to be inevitable.

With great power comes the great need to blame other people.
Guild Wars 2: (ArchonWing.9480)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2017, 06:55 PM
Post: #10
RE: English Should be Revised
(08-15-2017 12:44 AM)Taem Wrote:  A little rant here on something that has always bothered me. I don't suppose many here know why English is so difficult to pronounce, do they?

Check out this short article: https://blog.esl-languages.com/blog/lear...irregular/

Where is says, "The Great Vowel Shift", it is rather well known that around this time, vowels were added in to confuse commoners and keep them illiterate, which was important for maintaining power.

Anyway, there should be consistency. The entire language needs a revamp where the letters say exactly how they are, meaning we'd a need a lot of new letters and simply vowels to a singular letter sound. One of the things that pisses me off the most is when I hear children learning spelling and the teachers are spewing what they're trained to teach about words and vowels in particular, and according to them words always should sound phonetically how they're spelt, except vowels that might change them to say their name, and then this:

Words / Sound Like
on = aw
of = uh
oh = o
to = ew

No consistency. Does not follow any logical format for vowels or grammar. Basically, English as we know it is nothing more than an act of memorization, with just enough logical fallacy thrown in to seem like logical syntax to confuse us, lol. I'd like to see someone revamp the entire language. There are writers, such as JR Tolken who have written entire languages. Linguists who have deciphered the languages of lost cultures. Why not tap one of them (living ones of course) to do this? I guess it's not a priority on many peoples plates, but I think it'd make learning this language so much easier for everyone!

Interesting thread. Many languages slowly change by themselves; both with new words as with different spelling.

Something else: what about them fully embracing the metric system?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2017, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2017 07:58 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #11
RE: English Should be Revised
(09-08-2017 06:55 PM)eppie Wrote:  Something else: what about them fully embracing the metric system?
I cannot fathom why we'd delay complete conversion! We'd be miles ahead if our populace would just be willing to budge an inch.

Little known SI units --

2000 mockingbirds = 2 kilomockingbird
1 millionth parts of fish = 1 microfiche
52 playing cards = 1 decacards

We've gone 50 years with everything is both... I guess it's like the language, we take what we like, and ignore what we don't. A liter is larger than a quart, so soda pop now comes in liters, while milk, or orange juice is still in quarts and gallons.

I'd say we do many things wrong, like for angles we should work in base 60, like the ancient Babylonians. 10 is just really an awkward base... so many repeating decimals.

[Image: 322.jpg]
Plimpton 322

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O’Rourke

[Image: yVR5oE.png][Image: VKQ0KLG.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2017, 06:09 PM
Post: #12
RE: English Should be Revised
If we revised English we'd get more intelligent spam from people who don't speak the language well. Smile

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtmlWbJ-1vgb3aJmW4DJ7...NntmKgW8Cp]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2017, 11:18 PM
Post: #13
RE: English Should be Revised
My son sent me this recently...

There is no EGG in EGGPLANT nor HAM in HAMBURGER; neither APPLE nor PINE in PINEAPPLE. MUFFINS weren't invented in England. QUICKSAND can work slowly, BOXING RINGS are SQUARE, and a GUINEA PIG is neither from GUINEA nor is it a PIG.

And why is it that WRITERS WRITE but FINGERS don't FING, GROCERS don't GROCE, and HAMMERS don't HAM? Doesn't it seem crazy to you that you can make AMENDS but not one AMEND? And if TEACHERS TAUGHT, why didn't PREACHERS PRAUGHT? If a VEGETARIAN eats VEGETABLES, what does a HUMANITARIAN eat?

In what other language do people RECITE at a PLAY and PLAY at a RECITAL? We SHIP by TRUCK but SEND CARGO BY SHIP. We have NOSES that RUN and FEET that SMELL. We PARK in a DRIVEWAY and DRIVE in a PARKWAY. And how can a SLIM CHANCE and a FAT CHANCE be the same, while a WISE MAN and a WISE GUY are opposites?

You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your HOUSE can BURN UP as it BURNS DOWN, in which you can FILL IN a form by FILLING IT OUT, and in which an ALARM goes OFF by going ON. And, in closing, if Father is POP, how come Mother's not MOP?

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O’Rourke

[Image: yVR5oE.png][Image: VKQ0KLG.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-11-2017, 03:45 PM
Post: #14
RE: English Should be Revised
kandrathe, you made me think of a couple of funny examples from Spanish.

Esposas means wives, but it also means handcuffs.
El papa is the Pope, but la papa is the potato.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtmlWbJ-1vgb3aJmW4DJ7...NntmKgW8Cp]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump: