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Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
09-24-2017, 01:46 AM (This post was last modified: 09-24-2017 01:48 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #1
Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
When I hear the political position “by any means necessary” I fear the hyperbole has spun itself into extremist territory.

Micheal Lumish, a professor of American History at Penn State wrote in The Moral panic of 2017 - Jewish Press,

Quote:The truth is that we hate hate so much that some of us feel a moral imperative to dress up in black and hide our faces for the purpose of beating the holy hell out of anyone bold enough to listen to a Gay Jewish Conservative speak at UC Berkeley or, say, a traditional religious conservative like Ben Shapiro.

That is how much we hate hate.

Even well-meaning, upwardly-mobile, Champaign Socialists – who would never dare physically confront a man on the street merely because that person was wearing a red baseball cap – generally support such good, old-fashioned ass-whoopins’ in the name of “anti-fascism” by the Kids in Black.

I just like to call out and reveal the hypocrisy of supporting “morally justified “ violence.

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09-24-2017, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 09-24-2017 07:23 PM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #2
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
Moral panic involving gays wanting to corrupt the youth? Yea.
Moral panic involving government broadened powers to look for drugs? Yea.
Moral panic involving rock music. Sure?

Moral panic involving an ideology that cannot be peaceful and sends actual threats to burn synagogues.... I do not think this is in the same league.

While I agree you probably shouldn't go join antifa and burn things, I think trivializing the threat isn't a good thing either.
The only reason why White Supremacists are ineffectual is because they have no power and they would be crushed if they tried to revert things back to the Jim Crow days. Treating them as cute defanged beasts ignores the fact that they had to be defanged in the first place.

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09-25-2017, 01:29 AM
Post: #3
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-24-2017 07:22 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  The only reason why White Supremacists are ineffectual is because they have no power and they would be crushed if they tried to revert things back to the Jim Crow days. Treating them as cute defanged beasts ignores the fact that they had to be defanged in the first place.

There are places in the deep south and well as pockets in some northern states that would show you that the white supremacists haven't been defanged.

While I don't agree with the antifa, we should never, ever, stop fighting against bigotry no matter where it rears its ugly head.

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09-25-2017, 04:34 AM
Post: #4
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 01:29 AM)Lissa Wrote:  
(09-24-2017 07:22 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  The only reason why White Supremacists are ineffectual is because they have no power and they would be crushed if they tried to revert things back to the Jim Crow days. Treating them as cute defanged beasts ignores the fact that they had to be defanged in the first place.

There are places in the deep south and well as pockets in some northern states that would show you that the white supremacists haven't been defanged.

While I don't agree with the antifa, we should never, ever, stop fighting against bigotry no matter where it rears its ugly head.
I actually agree with you both in that those bigots are there and maybe always will. My concern is where sides the various local, state and fed governments power. Various hateful groups have hardly fangs, so long as we can trust the law to not be corrupted by them.

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09-25-2017, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 10:41 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #5
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 04:34 AM)kandrathe Wrote:  Various hateful groups have hardly fangs, so long as we can trust the law to not be corrupted by them.

Too late. Both this administration and the police pander to them. There has been way too many instances of left-wing/anti trump protesters being assaulted by police, while white nationalist protestors are able to not only protest freely, but do so with police protection. Besides, not letting fascists into politics or law enforcement isn't enough anyways.

Fascism and fascist ideas will never be compatible with a fair, just, equal, and safe society. Never. They never were in the past, nor will they ever be in the future. It is quite likely the most sociopathic, anti-human, and nihilist framework ever contrived.

I find it funny (actually on second thought, I don't) that so many people here hate Antifa, but yet they are one of the very few forces actually spear-heading a resistance to fascism actively while bourgeois politicians - local and federal alike, unsurpisingly turn a blind eye towards white nationalists. Ignoring it is just as bad as partaking in it, because by ignoring it you subtly contribute to it, or at least enable it. This article is, word for word, ridiculously spot on:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion...53365.html

Now, I can't say I usually politically align myself with the folks at Al Jazeera, who are well to my right politically. But in this particular instance, they are correct. America loves to decry fascism, but deep down, it sure seems to have a soft spot for it.

Quote:Predictably, the historically illiterate, ubiquitous members of the right-wing commentariat in America and beyond have attempted to tar the Antifa (anti-fascists) for resisting, and, if need be, defending itself against, the delinquents that march en masse at night with torches and mow down innocents in daylight with automobiles.

It's an old trick: to negate real evil by manufacturing a phantom villain as a convenient foil or facile distraction.

Regrettably, but not surprisingly, this transparent rhetorical slight of hand is magnified repeatedly by an amnesiac establishment media that habitually finds and amplifies moral and intellectual equivalences where none exist.

^^^Seriously Kandrathe, the entire premise of this thread is bordering on insanity. There is absolutely no comparison, ideologically or morally, between communists and fascists/Nazis. The former want equality and fairness (we are also realists and recognize that the only way to achieve that is to forcefully overthrow the present social order which is in no way conducive to equality, or fairness). The latter loves hierarchy, subjugation and coercion, all the worst traits of capitalism, and they would not hesitate to bring death or wholesale destruction to any group of persons different from them, especially if they oppose them. NOT the same thing at all.

If you tell a commie that you think capitalism is the best possible system we have, and that it can be fair - I don't know a single commie who would kill you or beat you for saying that. What they would do is explain to you why you are wrong, as I have do so many times here. Even most communists of the Marxist-Leninist variety, who are probably the most directly aggressive and vocal Marxist sect (relatively speaking), are still unlikely to physically harm you for political disagreement.

On the other hand, if you tell a fascist that you believe all races should be treated equally, that women have or should have as many rights as men, that the poor are suffering through no fault of their own, and that LGBTQ persons are good people in general - they are, at best going to give you a blank stare and look at you like you are utterly insane. At worst (and this is far more likely), they are going to call you a race traitor, anti-American commie and either beat you to a pulp or run you over in their car. Your political ideology, whether you are a communist, a libertarian, a liberal, or even a traditional/Burkish conservative will not matter - they will view you as an enemy to their dystopian and backwards ideas, and harm you or harass you the first opportunity they get.

Mind you, if it weren't for socialists and anti-fascists, it would be a world filled with blonde haired, blue eyed genetically engineered human beings - with not a single LGBTQ person, ethnic minority (with perhaps the stark exception of the Japanese) or Jew in sight - cause they'd all be systematically exterminated. And we'd all be speaking German. Remember that next time you decide to bash Antifa or any other radical left-wing group. Antifa may not align with you politically, but they are far more likely to have your back in speaking out against hatred and bigotry than a fascist is (virtually 0 chance there). In general, I think your chances of being assaulted or harassed by a white supremacist or a cop are far greater than they are from a communist/socialist.

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09-25-2017, 08:09 PM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 08:17 PM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #6
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 01:29 AM)Lissa Wrote:  
(09-24-2017 07:22 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  The only reason why White Supremacists are ineffectual is because they have no power and they would be crushed if they tried to revert things back to the Jim Crow days. Treating them as cute defanged beasts ignores the fact that they had to be defanged in the first place.

There are places in the deep south and well as pockets in some northern states that would show you that the white supremacists haven't been defanged.

While I don't agree with the antifa, we should never, ever, stop fighting against bigotry no matter where it rears its ugly head.

Well, that just makes my point stronger, that is, that they are dangerous opportunists that would certainly gas minorities and whoever else, had they the chance to. So the narrative that they can simply be ignored and are harmless, of which the article had too strong of a tone for, is not something i can agree with.

And it is certainly a destructive idea that people think that condemning nazis requires us to condemn everyone else equally when it is fairly clear their reputation precedes them. This all goes into the normalization of these things.

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09-25-2017, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 11:13 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #7
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 02:17 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  
(09-25-2017 04:34 AM)kandrathe Wrote:  Various hateful groups have hardly fangs, so long as we can trust the law to not be corrupted by them.
Too late. Both this administration and the police pander to them.
I was implying that, possibly, at a federal level. However, I believe at the federal level there is an internal struggle between the new right regime, and the old regime leftist mainstays. Yet, State, and local levels vary wildly in ideology.

I wonder statistically if police violence is actually higher, or if there is more publicity of every incident. Obviously, we need to insist on better data collection to hold our law enforcement accountable, on the factors that are potential for discrimination, and the numbers of incidents by severity. A federal study in 2001 (pretty old now) found that "Expressed as a percentage of total incidents, excessive force was used 0.42% of the time. Again looking at this another way, excessive force was not used in 99.583% of all reported cases." Assuming, nothing is dramatically improved, or worse, it seems excessive force (still reprehensible, and intolerable) is thankfully small.

Quote: There is absolutely no comparison, ideologically or morally, between communists and fascists/Nazis.
No need to burn this straw man here. No one is comparing them.

The difference in Moral Panic here is that while for 40 years we could depend solidly on "liberal" minded people to dampen reactionaries, instead there is an opposite amplification. I'm talking about the excessive hyperbole.

It's not like suddenly 50% of the US decided to become pro-Nazi. The majority of the US is as solidly anti-Nazi as it was in 1945, and in fact probably less anti-communist (judging by Bernie's draw) as they were in 1955. Moral panic is when enough people start "seeing" KKK or Nazi's everywhere, or start indiscriminately labeling everyone "not like me" as one.

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09-25-2017, 11:23 PM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 11:41 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #8
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 08:09 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  And it is certainly a destructive idea that people think that condemning nazis requires us to condemn everyone else equally when it is fairly clear their reputation precedes them. This all goes into the normalization of these things.
I think the article is asking if suddenly there are hidden bunches of KKK and Nazi's jumping out of closets emboldened by Herr Trump, or if this is "Moral Panic" to further a political agenda. In terms of SPLC numbers (which I consider exaggeratedly high) we are probably talking about somewhere around 10,000 people in the USA, even if they are up some 20-50% in the past couple of years it seems less than the pre-2012 anti-Obama peak.

My concern is that as in 1930's Germany, one sides over reaction fueled the opposite extremists recruitment until there was a mysterious fire at the Reichstag. A Moral Panic used to justify the suspension of most civil liberties in Germany, including habeas corpus, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, the secrecy of the post and telephone.

I'm calling for rational analysis of the information, and cool heads until we have a thorough investigation that reveals the truth, and not unfounded conspiracy theories.

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09-27-2017, 05:34 AM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2017 05:37 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #9
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49vnnLGRxpY

I felt like linking this from Star Trek DS9.

But in essence, even if we should disagree on how to fight "evil" as it exists, I fear not that evil is not being hurt as much as we are risking good people that we can't afford to lose in said fight.

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09-28-2017, 02:40 AM
Post: #10
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-25-2017 01:29 AM)Lissa Wrote:  While I don't agree with the antifa, we should never, ever, stop fighting against bigotry no matter where it rears its ugly head.

I almost got into a scrap this Sunday at work due to what I refer to as Reverse Racism:

There is a line to pay at the cash register, but for clarity sake, we'll say customer #1 was white, customer #2 behind her was black, customer #3 behind him was Hispanic. I'm manning the front solo as my other employees are all busy at the moment. Someone walks in through the front door (we'll refer to them from now on as Guest #1) as I'm cashing out customer #1. My attention shifts to guest #1 because our policy is to greet immediately upon walking through the door to be put on a waiting list, since the customers paying aren't going anywhere, but the customers just getting here require your immediate attention. Would it make sense to ignore all the guests coming through the door to finish cashing out a line of paying guests.. especially if they had split checks? Of course not, completely unprofessional. Customer #1 walks off as I talk to guest #1, who also happened to be white.

Customer #2 and his equally ignorant black friend quip to me how I'm being unfair, and must be a racist because they were next in line... all while I'm trying to write down guest #1's name, who was getting very upset. I ignore customer #2 for now and quickly take his family name and party size, then focus my attention on customer #2 and calmly explain to him our seating policy, and that there must be a misunderstanding because there is no problems here, just people trying to do their jobs. He then says he only wants to be treated fairly, and thinks I'm not doing my job right, then puffs up his chest and slowly walks into the bathroom staring at me. F-U-C-K-I-N-G M-O-R-O-N-S! These two individuals are just that, individuals and do not represent a broad swath of any given culture, however it's attitudes like this that cause the problems we have in this country. People like this make their own problems with self fulfilling prophecies, regardless of their culture or skin color. It's unfortunate it seems the majority of the people getting press time are in fact these blowhards.

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09-28-2017, 03:22 AM (This post was last modified: 09-28-2017 04:24 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #11
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-28-2017 02:40 AM)Taem Wrote:  
(09-25-2017 01:29 AM)Lissa Wrote:  While I don't agree with the antifa, we should never, ever, stop fighting against bigotry no matter where it rears its ugly head.

I almost got into a scrap this Sunday at work due to what I refer to as Reverse Racism:

There is a line to pay at the cash register, but for clarity sake, we'll say customer #1 was white, customer #2 behind her was black, customer #3 behind him was Hispanic. I'm manning the front solo as my other employees are all busy at the moment. Someone walks in through the front door (we'll refer to them from now on as Guest #1) as I'm cashing out customer #1. My attention shifts to guest #1 because our policy is to greet immediately upon walking through the door to be put on a waiting list, since the customers paying aren't going anywhere, but the customers just getting here require your immediate attention. Would it make sense to ignore all the guests coming through the door to finish cashing out a line of paying guests.. especially if they had split checks? Of course not, completely unprofessional. Customer #1 walks off as I talk to guest #1, who also happened to be white.

Customer #2 and his equally ignorant black friend quip to me how I'm being unfair, and must be a racist because they were next in line... all while I'm trying to write down guest #1's name, who was getting very upset. I ignore customer #2 for now and quickly take his family name and party size, then focus my attention on customer #2 and calmly explain to him our seating policy, and that there must be a misunderstanding because there is no problems here, just people trying to do their jobs. He then says he only wants to be treated fairly, and thinks I'm not doing my job right, then puffs up his chest and slowly walks into the bathroom staring at me. F-U-C-K-I-N-G M-O-R-O-N-S! These two individuals are just that, individuals and do not represent a broad swath of any given culture, however it's attitudes like this that cause the problems we have in this country. People like this make their own problems with self fulfilling prophecies, regardless of their culture or skin color. It's unfortunate it seems the majority of the people getting press time are in fact these blowhards.
Don’t despair.
I don’t think you can be a racist... you’re not white. Or , at least if I remember correctly you are part Hispanic. Big Grin

Any white person is fair game when the racism slur is tossed about, (with misogynist, sexist, homophobic) like a hate filled salad topped with bigoted white bread croutons.

Eventually when over (mis)used, (thanks to Lenny Bruce and blue comedy) shock words have no or different meaning. Like certain swear words of yore, “you suck” now can teasingly mean the opposite. Some day being called “so racist” will just mean you are extremely pale. Like, “hag” from haggard, is from hedge nest of a “wild falcon”.

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09-28-2017, 02:13 PM (This post was last modified: 09-28-2017 03:32 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #12
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-28-2017 02:40 AM)Taem Wrote:  I almost got into a scrap this Sunday at work due to what I refer to as Reverse Racism

The correct word here actually would be prejudice. As I've said many times before, there is a difference between being prejudice and racism. Neither one is good, but prejudice takes place at the individual level, while racism is at an institutional level.

Because racism is structural and favors whites, it is IMPOSSIBLE for blacks and other minorities to be racist. They cannot and do not benefit from it in any way, while whites do. Can minorities be prejudice? Absolutely. Which is what I think happened to you on Sunday. It is important to make this distinction, because there is no such thing as "reverse racism" - there is just plain ol' racism, and it operates at an institutionalized level. Whites can be victims of prejudice, but they are not systematically oppressed based on race (though plenty certainly are along CLASS lines), as blacks, native americans, latinos or other minorities are.

@Kandrathe, I'm not sure using a Clinton as an example to drive your point home (if I understood your point correctly, maybe I didn't) is exactly convincing. Both Clintons are actually quite racist.

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09-29-2017, 03:06 AM
Post: #13
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-28-2017 02:13 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:  Because racism is structural and favors whites, it is IMPOSSIBLE for blacks and other minorities to be racist. They cannot and do not benefit from it in any way, while whites do. Can minorities be prejudice? Absolutely. Which is what I think happened to you on Sunday. It is important to make this distinction, because there is no such thing as "reverse racism" - there is just plain ol' racism, and it operates at an institutionalized level. Whites can be victims of prejudice, but they are not systematically oppressed based on race (though plenty certainly are along CLASS lines), as blacks, native americans, latinos or other minorities are.
I don’t get then how people of Asian decent, who achieve at levels higher than privileged whites, reflect crime, prison, education, etc at rates reflecting more privilege than white people.

‘Pew Research’ Wrote:Asian Americans are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the United States. They are more satisfied than the general public with their lives, finances and the direction of the country, and they place more value than other Americans do on marriage, parenthood, hard work and career success, according to a comprehensive new nationwide survey by the Pew Research Center.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/1...americans/

Asia is a vast diverse group of peoples, and not every diaspora has had the same experience, but in general, America seems to work for them. Refugees fleeing from Vietnam, or Cambodia are still climbing that very challenging path out of poverty.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/04/0...n-the-u-s/

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09-29-2017, 11:43 AM
Post: #14
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
I am going off topic here, but with a thread title that includes the term "Moral Panic". I couldn't resist noting that Hugh Hefner just died.

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09-29-2017, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 09-29-2017 01:24 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #15
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-29-2017 11:43 AM)Alram Wrote:  I am going off topic here, but with a thread title that includes the term "Moral Panic". I couldn't resist noting that Hugh Hefner just died.
Oh, noes. Smile I never quite understood his fame, other than being present at the beginning of the sexual revolution and attempting to take exploitative soft porn mainstream. Yet another industry disrupted by the mostly unregulated internet.

On topic, the moral panic of that era (late 60’s to early 80’s), was the intrusion of people like Edwin Meese into 1st amendment restriction, and outright censorship of “immoral” publishers.

Reaction to 1969;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presiden...ornography

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09-30-2017, 12:40 AM (This post was last modified: 09-30-2017 12:52 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #16
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
Well, first off, Asian people might be better off economically, but they just suffer racism in different forms. I mean, they're one of the few remaining people where it's still okay to make fun of, and used in the model minority paradigm to justify racism against other races "eg, Asians can do it, so can you", thus fitting in the "divide and conquer" strategy they use against minorities as a whole. You keep the poor fighting and hating each other over scraps, and you keep them under control.

Secondly, it would be interesting to look at Asian immigrants (which do bring a lot of wealth and tradition over) vs African immigrants to control for a few things.

Finally, while Asians have dealt with much discrimination, they also haven't had an entire society attempt to destroy them socially and culturally through years of Jim Crow, preventing slaves from reading, portray them as beastly and anti-intellectual and generally taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own. And of course a drug war in a nation that loves imprisonment, destroying their families and communities. Nixon wanted to destroy black people along with the poor, and he sure did a great job.

Though I take that back a little. Japan did try to destroy other Asian countries in that manner in their brief reign of terror. And of course, all the western countries did during imperialism. Not exactly good role models.

None of this is of any use to taem. But was it really racially motivated, or was it morally bankrupt people trying to abuse their position as customers against someone at their job? I'm sure someone around here should see it as oppression of a certain other kind.

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09-30-2017, 05:21 AM (This post was last modified: 09-30-2017 03:03 PM by kandrathe.)
Post: #17
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-30-2017 12:40 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Well, first off, Asian people might be better off economically, but they just suffer racism in different forms. I mean, they're one of the few remaining people where it's still okay to make fun of, and used in the model minority paradigm to justify racism against other races "eg, Asians can do it, so can you", thus fitting in the "divide and conquer" strategy they use against minorities as a whole. You keep the poor fighting and hating each other over scraps, and you keep them under control.

Secondly, it would be interesting to look at Asian immigrants (which do bring a lot of wealth and tradition over) vs African immigrants to control for a few things.

Finally, while Asians have dealt with much discrimination, they also haven't had an entire society attempt to destroy them socially and culturally through years of Jim Crow, preventing slaves from reading, portray them as beastly and anti-intellectual and generally taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own. And of course a drug war in a nation that loves imprisonment, destroying their families and communities. Nixon wanted to destroy black people along with the poor, and he sure did a great job.

Though I take that back a little. Japan did try to destroy other Asian countries in that manner in their brief reign of terror. And of course, all the western countries did during imperialism. Not exactly good role models.

None of this is of any use to taem. But was it really racially motivated, or was it morally bankrupt people trying to abuse their position as customers against someone at their job? I'm sure someone around here should see it as oppression of a certain other kind.
The early Chinese immigrants were pretty much slave labor. The Japanese were pretty badly treated during and after WW II. As you are referring to African Americans, I’d never deny that those descended from former slaves didn’t have a steep mountain to overcome, and many have. “...taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own.” I’m not sure how Jazz, Blues, Rock, and Rap , and other arts fit that narrative, nor does their prominence in athleticism.

In my prior software consulting days, pre-2007, I ran a large portion of a high tech practice, we sent recruiters to large cities around the world, especially Southern Africa, Eastern Europe, Philippines, Mumbai, Seoul, and Dublin. I’ve made many friends around the world and helped them acclimate and emigrate here if that was their plan.

Yeah, I am the Donald’s immigration nightmare, filling those high paying tech jobs with highly qualified foreigners who are thrilled to try the adventure, or want to become new citizens. I understand the advantages of a borderless global economy.

The observation I would make from my friends is that yes, they do face discrimination, but good people here have their backs too, to help them succeed. Back in their countries of origin, they also faced discrimination and opportunity barriers, racial, gender, class, etc - things that mostly disappeared once they came here. Like the news, we tend to choose to focus on the bad, and ignore the good. There are flaws, but there are many more good people, and goodness in the US.

Now in my current job, every day I work with a brilliant tech analyst who emigrated from Kenya with his family when he was ten. His dad was a warehouse manager for a multi-national company and came with only with the good will of an American family that befriended and sponsored them. Now as first gen citizens, that dad, mom, his son (the one I work with) and 3 daughters are all college graduates.

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O’Rourke

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09-30-2017, 11:50 AM
Post: #18
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-30-2017 12:40 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Finally, while Asians have dealt with much discrimination, they also haven't had an entire society attempt to destroy them socially and culturally through years of Jim Crow, preventing slaves from reading, portray them as beastly and anti-intellectual and generally taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own.

China has done that to Tibet.

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09-30-2017, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 09-30-2017 05:49 PM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #19
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-30-2017 11:50 AM)Alram Wrote:  
(09-30-2017 12:40 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Finally, while Asians have dealt with much discrimination, they also haven't had an entire society attempt to destroy them socially and culturally through years of Jim Crow, preventing slaves from reading, portray them as beastly and anti-intellectual and generally taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own.

China has done that to Tibet.

Should have probably only referred to this in the context of the US based racism and Asian Americans, but sure. It's a decent parallel.

And of course nobody really kills Chinese people and destroys their culture like Chinese people themselves (burn the books and sometimes the scholars with them!), but that's another story!

(09-30-2017 05:21 AM)kandrathe Wrote:  
(09-30-2017 12:40 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Well, first off, Asian people might be better off economically, but they just suffer racism in different forms. I mean, they're one of the few remaining people where it's still okay to make fun of, and used in the model minority paradigm to justify racism against other races "eg, Asians can do it, so can you", thus fitting in the "divide and conquer" strategy they use against minorities as a whole. You keep the poor fighting and hating each other over scraps, and you keep them under control.

Secondly, it would be interesting to look at Asian immigrants (which do bring a lot of wealth and tradition over) vs African immigrants to control for a few things.

Finally, while Asians have dealt with much discrimination, they also haven't had an entire society attempt to destroy them socially and culturally through years of Jim Crow, preventing slaves from reading, portray them as beastly and anti-intellectual and generally taking a dump on anything cultural black people could call their own. And of course a drug war in a nation that loves imprisonment, destroying their families and communities. Nixon wanted to destroy black people along with the poor, and he sure did a great job.

Though I take that back a little. Japan did try to destroy other Asian countries in that manner in their brief reign of terror. And of course, all the western countries did during imperialism. Not exactly good role models.

None of this is of any use to taem. But was it really racially motivated, or was it morally bankrupt people trying to abuse their position as customers against someone at their job? I'm sure someone around here should see it as oppression of a certain other kind.
The early Chinese immigrants were pretty much slave labor. The Japanese were pretty badly treated during and after WW II. I’d never deny that those former slaves didn’t have a steep mountain to overcome, and many have.

Everyone has, and I'm not trying to go through which mountain is higher. But it most certainly is apples and oranges.



Quote:Yeah, I am the Donald’s immigration nightmare, filling those high paying tech jobs with highly qualified foreigners who are thrilled to try the adventure, or want to become new citizens. I understand the advantages of a borderless global economy.

Well, Donald thinks that immigrants steal jobs (that people here wouldn't do anyways). Funny how so many on the Right has come to seek the help of big government when it turns out they are not competitive in in the edgy Darwinist fantasy world they cooked up. Someone wants to work more for less, well, obviously you'd hire them.

And perhaps it's my own frustration with dealing with people and that is that so many people want to just phone it home and never account for anything. There's like no self-accountability. I mean, I had some idiot with a business offer call me the other day asking when could we talk since I said I was busy. I was like next week, and they were like "i'll talk to you tomorrow, since...". I'm just thinking to myself, "The fuck?". You don't get to fucking decide this when you're trying to sell something to me. Naturally hung up really fast and this isn't an isolated incident.No manners, no respect, no intelligence. Fucking mil.... wait, I don't really know how old they were, but I suppose I'm getting old and age doesn't really cure stupid anyways. But honestly, these people deserve to fail and if immigrants take their jobs, well fuck good riddance.

Oh, and at the risk of offending people, but hey this will be complementary to Taem's , it's always a certain group of people that is more prone to do this, and well, they're not black.

Quote:The observation I would make from my friends is that yes, they do face discrimination, but good people here have their backs too, to help them succeed. Back in their countries of origin, they also faced discrimination and opportunity barriers, racial, gender, class, etc - things that mostly disappeared once they came here. Like the news, we tend to choose to focus on the bad, and ignore the good. There are flaws, but there are many more good people, and goodness in the US.

Wouild never doubt that. But this is through the hearts of the people; I am criticizing the institutions though, and of course, the state and police that constantly strive to increase their own power.

Quote:Now in my current job, every day I work with a brilliant tech analyst who emigrated from Kenya with his family when he was ten. His dad was a warehouse manager for a multi-national company and came with only with the good will of an American family that befriended and sponsored them. Now as first gen citizens, that dad, mom, his son (the one I work with) and 3 daughters are all college graduates.

That's what I've seen ancedotally as well. It almost seems the will to find a new life in a different land transcends skin color. Not surprising right? But that also means something is up here though and maybe we have failed a community or two.

You know those Chinatowns tourists love to go to? They're pretty much the hood for Chinese people (at least originally), except I guess it sells better.

In any case, this whole model minority thing tends to be yet another tool to justify racism. Now I know you aren't doing such a thing, but I have to say this idea is so commonplace that if Asians are being used as a group to justify such, then they are certainly being oppressed even if they are doing well. Maybe that just means the racists have failed, rather than any actual goodwill.

With great power comes the great need to blame other people.
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09-30-2017, 07:09 PM
Post: #20
RE: Moral Panic — from anti-commie to anti-nazi
(09-30-2017 02:58 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  In any case, this whole model minority thing tends to be yet another tool to justify racism. Now I know you aren't doing such a thing, but I have to say this idea is so commonplace that if Asians are being used as a group to justify such, then they are certainly being oppressed even if they are doing well. Maybe that just means the racists have failed, rather than any actual goodwill.
The whole monolithic racial thing breaks down when you start breaking down into subgroups. I really think it comes down to what you do with what you have, and whether you live in an area where there is any opportunity to build wealth. Look at Appalachia. Still poor as dirt after 200 years of working the same rural acres. I think there are just places that have very little opportunity. You can look anecdotally at people like Oprah to see that she had a lot against her, but eventually did what she could, ended up with a scholarship to Tennessee State which changed her life. So, generally, a way I think we can fix this is that we need to find a way to bring more opportunity into impoverished areas.

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O’Rourke

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