Posts: 453
Threads: 20
Joined: Jul 2005
03-13-2008, 11:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2008, 11:46 PM by Xame.)
Looking over some of the more general aspects of Arena such as which classes are in the top tiers, since I wanted to calm my belief that its just all screwed up..... Data usually removes my irrational beliefs and lets me focus more on what is "reality".
This started as a search for which combination team would work best for my mage in season 4 and lead me to some interesting sites that put together data on Arenas.
The data is interesting enough that I thought I would share without comment:
Blizzard's own Kalgan on the Warlock forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...geNo=4&sid=1#74
An interesting site that lets you slice up the data to see class, spec and combinations of the top teams.
http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statis...s/2v2.html
Well, I cannot stop myself from one comment. Notice that the shaman only comes to life in the 5v5 game and not so for 2v2 or 3v3. It really shows some of the problems blizzard has in trying to balance the game just in the different groups of PvP let alone the PvE game.
Posts: 5,138
Threads: 299
Joined: Feb 2003
Quote:Looking over some of the more general aspects of Arena such as which classes are in the top tiers, since I wanted to calm my belief that its just all screwed up..... Data usually removes my irrational beliefs and lets me focus more on what is "reality".
This started as a search for which combination team would work best for my mage in season 4 and lead me to some interesting sites that put together data on Arenas.
The data is interesting enough that I thought I would share without comment:
Blizzard's own Kalgan on the Warlock forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...geNo=4&sid=1#74
An interesting site that lets you slice up the data to see class, spec and combinations of the top teams.
http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statis...s/2v2.html
Well, I cannot stop myself from one comment. Notice that the shaman only comes to life in the 5v5 game and not so for 2v2 or 3v3. It really shows some of the problems blizzard has in trying to balance the game just in the different groups of PvP let alone the PvE game.
Yeah most of my arena play has been on a hunter and a shaman, and mostly in 3v3 and 2v2. So yeah I'm aware of the issues of both of those classes. Though I still think folks haven't fully figured out how to utilize hunters as well as they can in PvP and that is part of the lower representation, druids used to be under represented as well in arenas back in season 1.
But yeah shaman are still the weakest healers in arena, you pretty much have to have a support healer or you play as elemental and elemental is not a spec I'm able to really speak about in PvP. In 5v5 you can have another healer to help out, I would not like to see a shaman on a 4 DPS team trying to heal, and then the other tools the shaman brings can actually be put into play without just being shut-down rapidly.
One change that I'm interested to see is that they reduced the cast time of ghost wolf by 1s. That means fully talented shaman can have instant ghost wolf, which will let them half ass some of the druid running games. They still have to be a statue to heal but at least they do have a few other tools to try and get away even if you can dispell ghost wolf form. The GCD change to 1s on totems is going to be helpful as well. It can still be a dangerous choice to drop a totem and chew a GCD but at least you are back a little quicker (this is a nice PvE change as well).
---
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
Posts: 2,304
Threads: 266
Joined: Feb 2003
The part that is interesting to me is that paladins are represented even further below expectations than shamans are in 2v2 and 3v3. Yet the paladins I have heard speak of arena seem pretty happy and the shamans pretty unhappy. To me this speaks a lot on playstyle of the two classes. It feels like paladins aren't very strong, but those who play them enjoy them. Shaman are slightly stronger than paladins (since they show up more in the numbers in those two brackets), but the players don't enjoy playing them as much.
Posts: 3,480
Threads: 543
Joined: Apr 2010
The problems with resto Shamans in small-scale PvP become apparent rapidly. Like Paladins, they have to stand still to heal. Their armor, shield, and low-cost heals help to give them survivability greater than Priests, but they're too easy to shut down. Stick a Rogue on them and their effectiveness drops to around 20-30%, whereas a Priest can still operate at about 50-70% with a Rogue on them.
As GG said, you can't have a Shaman as a lone healer on a 5v5 and be effective. 4 DPS teams pretty much need a Paladin due to the Bubble letting them get some heals off for a short period - hopefully long enough for his teammates to obliterate someone. Shamans are fantastic in 5v5 because heroism/bloodlust is so insane, but they need backup for healing.
In 2v2, a Warrior/Shaman combo can be nice, but Warrior/Druid is of course completely superior. I have a lot of 3v3 experience with Warrior/Shaman/Priest, and in this combo the Shaman becomes more of an offensive player if the Priest is getting focused. Letting a Warrior/Shaman wail on someone unfettered is often a bad plan, even if the Shaman is resto. Once the target hits 50%, heroism + windfury + mortal strike + lightning bolt + earth shock can take people by surprise. I just have to live long enough, abusing LOS, Pain Suppression, fears, etc.
The instant cast ghost wolf is an attempt to give Shamans mobility, but I don't envision it as being all that effective. Maybe that's just my Priest perspective; being able to dispel it off means that the Shaman trying to run away is using a losing tactic. They can't heal while running away like a Druid can. If a team is slow to dispel, or has no offensive dispelling, the ghost wolf change will make focusing a resto Shaman less desirable, though.
Druids are so grossly overrepresented in 2v2 and 3v3 arena (I recall Kalgan's post about Druids having a 450%+ overrepresentation in 2v2) that I'm surprised that the only major nerf I've seen so far is the Cyclone range nerf. At least thanks to that, if a Druid wants to Cyclone me he's going to have to eat a mana burn to do it. As if mana burns bother Druids. :)
The new Arena Tournament realm will *really* showcase balance issues. Now there is no barrier to entry for getting a new class on your team; you can instantly create a new character and deck them out with gear to try out new combos. The results will undoubtedly be fascinating. The raw numbers from the successful teams in the Arena Tournament realm will give stark, black-and-white balance numbers unencumbered by the social and time issues of team compositions in normal realms. I can't wait to see how it pans out.
-Bolty
Quote:Considering the mods here are generally liberals who seem to have a soft spot for fascism and white supremacy (despite them saying otherwise), me being perma-banned at some point is probably not out of the question.
Posts: 1,626
Threads: 66
Joined: Feb 2003
Instant cast Ghost Wolf won't do a damn thing for you if you have Hamstring, Wing Clip, Crippling Poison, or any of those goodies on you. You'll still be moving slowly, except now you're a beast instead of a humanoid.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
The original Heavy Metal Cowâ¢. USDA inspected, FDA approved.
Posts: 358
Threads: 16
Joined: Dec 2004
Balancing for both 2's and 5's seems very hard to me. For instance since much of a Shaman's power is in group buffs the better they'll do in full sized teams - it's better to apply Bloodlust and Windfury to four DPS than to one. Druids are the other way around - it's easier to run from two players than five and with less incoming damage there's time for HOTs to work.
It's possible to argue back and forth over the available statistics almost endlessly - are Warriors overrepresented (they are the most common high ranked arena class) or underepresented (there are a lot of warriors, so even 'in every good team' is a lower percentage than some other classes get)? I think normalisation against class population has a place but should be done carefully - I'm sure class power does have an effect on class population and I'm also sure the effect is more pronounced at higher skill levels.
