Active Denial System

[Frag]

I realize I may be coming to the knowledge of this thing existing slowly, but... we got a ray gun?! :w00t:

Anyone here have any socio-political or ethical umbrage at it's usage?
~Frag



I can't believe we have a ray gun!

[Bun-Bun]

I realize I may be coming to the knowledge of this thing existing slowly, but... we got a ray gun?! :w00t:

Anyone here have any socio-political or ethical umbrage at it's usage?
~Frag
I can't believe we have a ray gun!

I'm actively in denial on the subject.

Why take umbrage? Would it be preferable to just kill 'em all? Or is it the fear that it would be more freely used if it's nonlethal? I don't think that's an issue; we already have cops with rubber bullets, tear gas, tasers and other nonlethal devices. This is just a more effective variation on that theme.

[kandrathe]

I realize I may be coming to the knowledge of this thing existing slowly, but... we got a ray gun?! :w00t:

Anyone here have any socio-political or ethical umbrage at it's usage?
~Frag
I can't believe we have a ray gun!

Yeah, I got one on my Pickup Truck to help me herd cattle.

VMADS

[Rhydderch Hael]

I've participated in discussion about this thing on medieval-themed forums due to the very real possibility that a suit of armor will likely stop this sucker cold. Hell, it's possible that window screens or a windshield could shield you from the microwaves. It wouldn't take all that much preparation on part of the adversary to effect some form of countermeasure, be it shield made from half a metal garbage can, or a smokescreen (would smoke sufficiently absorb or scatter the microwaves?)

In short, this appears to be a very expensive and less effective alternative to tear gas or water cannons, and as such its development primarily as a crowd control system is suspect.

But, as the preliminary research and development towards more powerful directed energy weapons— that seems the more cruelly reasonable motivation.

I'd say it was easier to get funds by marketing the thing as a clean riot-control device rather than considering it the potential stepping-stone towards a battlefield pulse-cannon.

[Sheep]

Water cannons require specific infrastructure to be present in the area of the riot, and can quite easily cause injuries. Tear gas, while quite effective, has a nasty tendency to spread, and hurts something aweful for hours.

A microwave gun does no lasting damage, stops hurting the moment it's off you, and can be targetted more accurately than tear gas.

Long story short, I'd rather be zapped than hosed down or gassed, but I'd still head for the hills (Supposing I was participating in a riot) once the authorities started sweeping the beam across the crowd.

Besides, if you've got rioters huddling behind shields instead of actively engaging in destructive behaviour... Mission accomplished, wouldn't you say?

On another note, you know when you put tin foil in the microwave? How likely is it that would happen due to the ADS?

[kandrathe]

I've participated in discussion about this thing on medieval-themed forums due to the very real possibility that a suit of armor will likely stop this sucker cold. Hell, it's possible that window screens or a windshield could shield you from the microwaves. It wouldn't take all that much preparation on part of the adversary to effect some form of countermeasure, be it shield made from half a metal garbage can, or a smokescreen (would smoke sufficiently absorb or scatter the microwaves?)

In short, this appears to be a very expensive and less effective alternative to tear gas or water cannons, and as such its development primarily as a crowd control system is suspect.

But, as the preliminary research and development towards more powerful directed energy weapons— that seems the more cruelly reasonable motivation.

I'd say it was easier to get funds by marketing the thing as a clean riot-control device rather than considering it the potential stepping-stone towards a battlefield pulse-cannon.

Maybe even wearing leather, or damp leather boots, pants, jacket, gloves. Full ski mask for the head, but I'm not sure how to protect the eyes. It would be no more effective than a blistering agent, but more controlled not having to worry about wind.

[Occhidiangela]

Water cannons require specific infrastructure to be present in the area of the riot, and can quite easily cause injuries. Tear gas, while quite effective, has a nasty tendency to spread, and hurts something aweful for hours.

A microwave gun does no lasting damage, stops hurting the moment it's off you, and can be targetted more accurately than tear gas.

Neither did thalidomide when it first came out.

Oops.:P

Long story short, I'd rather be zapped than hosed down or gassed, but I'd still head for the hills (Supposing I was participating in a riot) once the authorities started sweeping the beam across the crowd.

Besides, if you've got rioters huddling behind shields instead of actively engaging in destructive behaviour... Mission accomplished, wouldn't you say?

The counter to this ray gun is a marksman with a deer rifle. Shoot the sumbitch who is using it.

See 1963, Ap Bac, for an example of how small arms are a remarkably effective counter to high tech weapons systems, if used correctly.

This system is right out of Atlas Shrugged.

Oh tidings of comfort and joy.

Occhi

[Rhydderch Hael]

... I can't believe we have a ray gun!

You think this is cool, then know that at Edwards AFB they're getting ready to test out the ABL system. A 747 with a frickin' oxygen-iodine laser cannon in the nose. *

Ka-pow!

* well, not in the actual nose. The emitter window is in the nose. The magic thingys that create the laser beam are fitted into the fuselage. The fact that said fuselage is a Boeing 747 tells you something about the size and mass of it.

[Lissa]

You think this is cool, then know that at Edwards AFB they're getting ready to test out the ABL system. A 747 with a frickin' oxygen-iodine laser cannon in the nose. *

Ka-pow!

* well, not in the actual nose. The emitter window is in the nose. The magic thingys that create the laser beam are fitted into the fuselage. The fact that said fuselage is a Boeing 747 tells you something about the size and mass of it.

I bet TD could shed some light on this subject... :whistling:;)

[Sheep]

The counter to this ray gun is a marksman with a deer rifle. Shoot the sumbitch who is using it.

See 1963, Ap Bac, for an example of how small arms are a remarkably effective counter to high tech weapons systems, if used correctly.

The counter to any riot squad is a marksman with a deer rifle. Most riots, though, don't involve premeditated murder. If the rioters were particularly bloodthirsty, I suppose you could mount it on an APC; targetting requires the use of a screen and joystick anyways.

The point of the ADS isn't to kill, it isn't even a weapon. It is a tool to disperse crowds and make a specific location innaccessible to anyone who doesn't belong. It wouldn't be used against armed insurgents, in the same way that rubber bullets aren't. Hence, the comparison to Ap Bac doesn't apply.

Would you please explain the Atlas Shrugged reference? Are you comparing the ADS to Project F, Project X, or something else entirely?

Thanks

[Taem]

I realize I may be coming to the knowledge of this thing existing slowly, but... we got a ray gun?! :w00t:
I can't believe we have a ray gun!

Isn't this kind of "old news?" Back when I was <15 watching television with my father, an episode of 20/20 came on and this man who was x-military made a EMP (electro-magnetic-pulse) weapon using junkyard parts made mostly out of microwave parts. He was under the impression that a strong enough beam could take down jets since microwaves travel in a relatively straight path so not as much power loss vs. distance. He demonstrated his weapon on 20/20 with numerous electronic objects and fried them all. 20/20 tried to get a statement from the U.S. military to which the reply was, "There is no such devise in existence." Anyways, I always wanted to know what would happen if you used this weapon on people, but now I know; I had always assumed it could interfere with their own magnetic energy and perhaps make them fall unconscious, but looks like I was wrong. Interesting stuff to be sure.

[Lissa]

Isn't this kind of "old news?" Back when I was <15 watching television with my father, an episode of 20/20 came on and this man who was x-military made a EMP (electro-magnetic-pulse) weapon using junkyard parts made mostly out of microwave parts. He was under the impression that a strong enough beam could take down jets since microwaves travel in a relatively straight path so not as much power loss vs. distance. He demonstrated his weapon on 20/20 with numerous electronic objects and fried them all. 20/20 tried to get a statement from the U.S. military to which the reply was, "There is no such devise in existence." Anyways, I always wanted to know what would happen if you used this weapon on people, but now I know; I had always assumed it could interfere with their own magnetic energy and perhaps make them fall unconscious, but looks like I was wrong. Interesting stuff to be sure.

Anytime I hear the military deny the existance of something, I put a 90% chance that it does exist and they don't want people to know that it exists. DARPA is constantly working on strange ideas and they have plenty of things in the works. Here's one for Occhi, how many sonar people that you worked with back in the 80s were like, "damn, now we have to share with the public," when the Japanese came out with DAT? About the only weapon I would be leery of its existance is the Neutron Bomb. The materials required are quite exotic and typically don't survive long before decaying or fissioning. I'm just waiting for room temperature super conductors to come about on a relatively inexpensive media, then you will really see things take off (like tanks equipped with gaussian weapons for the main gun and the like).

[TheDragoon]

I bet TD could shed some light on this subject... :whistling:;)

Yes, I could certainly enlighten someone about ABL... :lol:

[Frag]

Yes, I could certainly enlighten someone about ABL... :lol:

"You should never ask an engineer to explain something, because HE WILL!" ~Memoirs of Geisha

:D
~Frag

[Urza-DSF]

Soon... our glorious power-suited soldiers will annex Canada with their plasma rifles and gauss pistols, ushering in a post-apocalyptic world in which a single vault dweller must save all of southern California!

[Occhidiangela]

The counter to any riot squad is a marksman with a deer rifle. Most riots, though, don't involve premeditated murder. If the rioters were particularly bloodthirsty, I suppose you could mount it on an APC; targetting requires the use of a screen and joystick anyways.

I don't think you understand what I was talking about. Your use of "riot" and "rioters" ignores the uses that this thing can be made of in crowded scenarios that are not a "riot." Watch the connotations.

The point of the ADS isn't to kill, it isn't even a weapon.

Horse apples. It is a weapon, intended to cause physical harm and disable people. The US military has been working on "Non Lethal Weapons" for over twenty years, for use in OOTW scenarios and civil disturbances, with the intent of using WEAPONS that don't kill.

Your attempt at semantic distinction is discarded for the error that it is.

Ap bac most certainly does, VC, not NVA, but I don't think you are interested in understanding why.

Would you please explain the Atlas Shrugged reference?

No. If you didn't get it the first time, it wasn't that scintillating a stroke of brilliance that it merits being beat into the dirt with further comment. FFS, it's Ayn Rand material.

Occhi

[Mithrandir]

DARPA is constantly working on strange ideas and they have plenty of things in the works.

I worked in the lab of a bio-engineering professor who had a few really cooky contracts from the Department of Defense (and know several individuals who still work for him).

His first contract was to develop a chip that could be implanted in the brain of a human that would allow said individual to... *drum roll*... remotely control an army of robots. Note that the ability to control large numbers of robots (100+) was specifically stated in the initial design doc. Weird stuff. They never got past the first stage of trying to get a rat to control the movement of a single robot before the funding got cut. Interesting enough, the PhD/grad students working on the project said the toughest aspect was just trying to get the rat to care about moving a robot around doing mundane tasks in the first place. lol:blush:

Of course he immediately got a second DoD contract because the Navy wanted to be able to remotely control sharks for some reason. Literally they wanted to be able to place some implants in a living shark, seal it up and then swim the shark around like a video game via a joystick. Seriously. That project was still going last I heard.

The DoD was throwing tens of millions of dollars at this guy and his rampant imagination.

[Hammerskjold]

They never got past the first stage of trying to get a rat to control the movement of a single robot before the funding got cut. Interesting enough, the PhD/grad students working on the project said the toughest aspect was just trying to get the rat to care about moving a robot around doing mundane tasks in the first place. lol:blush:

Why, why are perfectly good jobs being outsourced to rats when there are perfectly good hobos ready, willing, and able to perform the same task? And these rats don't even seem to care about their jobs, a pretty damn cushy job of ordering around robots even?! Sounds like a pretty sweet middle management position to me. And they don't even seem to care?! There are hobos who would kill for that job! Literally, kill.

Lou Dobbs is right I tells you.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Why, why are perfectly good jobs being outsourced to rats when there are perfectly good <strike>hobos</strike> lawyers ready, willing, and able to perform the same task? And these rats don't even seem to care about their jobs, a pretty damn cushy job of ordering around robots even?! Sounds like a pretty sweet middle management position to me. And they don't even seem to care?! There are <strike>hobos</strike> lawyers who would kill for that job! Literally, kill.

Lou Dobbs is right I tells you.

Fixed it for you. The people running the experiments might get attached to the hobos. No such danger with lawyers;)

"Denny Crane. Denny Crane."

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Burning skin is well and good, but I wanna ride me one of these. Big Dog

Oh, and I've been watching intently for a number of years the improving developments of Robart