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Warrior Talents
They've updated warrior talents and made Tatical Mastery Trained. (lvl 20, retain upto 10 rage)
This thread has some details of all the changes.
Including an assume quote from Kalgan on Page 2.:)
Quote:Pshaw, real men tank 5-man instances with a 2h'er and zerker stance.:P
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10-16-2006, 08:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2006, 08:29 PM by Ashock.)
Quote:Warrior Talents
They've updated warrior talents and made Tatical Mastery Trained. (lvl 20, retain upto 10 rage)
This thread has some details of all the changes.
Including an assume quote from Kalgan on Page 2.:)
These were necessary, not overwhelming. Better than nothing, though.
-A
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Incoming MS + Flurry builds!
Or several other nice options. I think Flurry is superior to Improved MS for PVE though.
I'm not sure what build I'll use with my warrior.
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10-16-2006, 09:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2006, 09:52 PM by Concillian.)
Umm... wow... hell hath frozen over.
Aside from MS / Flurry + TM these changes bring the re-emergence of the Arms / Prot hybrid build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...033000000000000
Previously getting blood frenzy meant 40 points in Arms, which severely limits what you can get in protection. Moving that up so you can get it with 33 points makes it much more viable.
While the 1H spec / Bloodthirst / Flurry build will likely be better single target damage for the warrior, this gives a little more overall raid utility with blood frenzy and improved thunderclap, and the +4 weapon skill should be a decent boost to put it reasonably close to the Fury / prot on single target damage.
Also, related but not directly....
Elitist Jerks forums are reporting that Windfury totem procs will be yellow damage in TBC (no rage gain).
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Some interesting changes, and I'm definitely glad to see Improved Bloodrage at the beginning of the Protection tree (allowing you to scoop up TM for the full 25 for your first five points, instead of Anticipation which is largely useless in PvP.) Some other minor tweaks to the Protection tree, though I'm still flabbergasted at why Improved Shield Wall still hasn't been improved, especially in light of Improved Disciplines in the Arms tree (which is superior in every possible way.)
That said, I'm still sticking fairly close to my projected PvP build, though I'm now taking Vitality instead of other talents, since it now conveys a hefty 10% boost to Strength along with the 5% boost to Stamina (though I'd rather it be the other way around, being a cow; +10% STA on top of +5% TotalHP would be just plain sick), which will serve to increase staying power, melee attack power, and Shield Slam damage (since the STR bonus would increase Block value by a small amount.) Something tells me it's going to be quite lovely to chain together a couple of 9 Rage Sunders followed by a dazing, silencing 7 Rage Shield Bash followed up by a 9 Rage Heroic Strike:)
This, of course, assumes that the Improvement talents for the various attack abilities will stack with Focused Rage, which I'd think is an extremely potent combination. If they do stack (like I'd assume they will), it may well be an effective solution to the Protection build's problem of generating sufficient Rage in PvP (when not being pounded on by several people at once, at any rate.)
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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10-17-2006, 05:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2006, 05:48 AM by Jester.)
Quote:While the 1H spec / Bloodthirst / Flurry build will likely be better single target damage for the warrior, this gives a little more overall raid utility with blood frenzy and improved thunderclap, and the +4 weapon skill should be a decent boost to put it reasonably close to the Fury / prot on single target damage.
Remember that blood frenzy now says *your* melee damage is increased by 4%, not everyone's.
So, still nice for single target DPS, but not the massive rogue-booster it was before.
Plus, I think I'd build the arms prot hybrid a little differently, maybe more like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...030000000000000
I think 15% extra rage would help make up for the cheaper sunders, and would get better as you gear up. The 10% armour is a blow, for sure, but hey, I likes my DPS.
-Jester
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Quote:Remember that blood frenzy now says *your* melee damage is increased by 4%, not everyone's.
So, still nice for single target DPS, but not the massive rogue-booster it was before.
Plus, I think I'd build the arms prot hybrid a little differently, maybe more like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...030000000000000
I think 15% extra rage would help make up for the cheaper sunders, and would get better as you gear up. The 10% armour is a blow, for sure, but hey, I likes my DPS.
-Jester
Don't have the link but a blue said that it is ALL damage not just yours, that it was a typo on the calc
---
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Quote:Don't have the link but a blue said that it is ALL damage not just yours, that it was a typo on the calc
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...420653&sid=1#17
"A couple quick corrections...
- Blood Frenzy is actually still a debuff on the target that now adds 2%/4% to melee damage done to the target (the current tooltip in the talent calculator makes it sound like it only increses your damage).
- Endless Rage now increases rage generated when you deal damage by 25% (but does not increase rage generated by taking damage)."
-Kalgan
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Quote:Second Wind: Reduced to 20 rage, now has a health regen component.
:angry::angry::angry:
Quote:Improved MS: Reduces the cooldown of MS by .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds. Also increases its damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.
Improved WW: Reduces the cooldown of your WW ability by 1/2 seconds (2 points total.)
Yeah, and all the top-end fought the "warriors scale too well" arguments with "we're cooldown limited at those gear-levels, not rage limited!" God forbid warriors be limited in any way, huh?
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Quote:Elitist Jerks forums are reporting that Windfury totem procs will be yellow damage in TBC (no rage gain).
They are wrong. Only the self-weapon buff is yellow damage now.
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Quote:http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...420653&sid=1#17
"A couple quick corrections...
- Blood Frenzy is actually still a debuff on the target that now adds 2%/4% to melee damage done to the target (the current tooltip in the talent calculator makes it sound like it only increses your damage).
- Endless Rage now increases rage generated when you deal damage by 25% (but does not increase rage generated by taking damage)."
-Kalgan
Well, there we are. I stand corrected by the corrections.
Makes the tree seem even more tempting to me, and I'm already planning on going 41 deep in it. 25% more rage from dealing damage is probably better than 15/15, and only gets better and better as you gear up in the endgame, decreasing damage taken, and increasing damage given.
-Jester
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Quote::angry::angry::angry:
Yeah, and all the top-end fought the "warriors scale too well" arguments with "we're cooldown limited at those gear-levels, not rage limited!" God forbid warriors be limited in any way, huh?
We have nothing at range stronger than a bowshot, except for charge/intercept, which have long cooldowns and combat restrictions. A warrior at range is a dead warrior, or at least a useless one.
Our two spell interrupts both require melee range to use.
We have neither prevention nor cure for any kind of CC, from any class.
We can't heal, except for bandages.
We can't decurse, cure diseases, cure poisions, clear magic debuffs, etc...
We can't stealth or vanish.
We have very little CC of our own.
Warriors might be damn powerful at high-end gearing, but we've got strong limits that blizzard has done nothing to diminish. Warriors remain the most supportable class, but also the class most in need of support.
-Jester
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10-17-2006, 04:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2006, 04:29 PM by Luminon.)
Quote:We have nothing at range stronger than a bowshot, except for charge/intercept, which have long cooldowns and combat restrictions. A warrior at range is a dead warrior, or at least a useless one.
Our two spell interrupts both require melee range to use.
We have neither prevention nor cure for any kind of CC, from any class.
We can't heal, except for bandages.
We can't decurse, cure diseases, cure poisions, clear magic debuffs, etc...
We can't stealth or vanish.
We have very little CC of our own.
Warriors might be damn powerful at high-end gearing, but we've got strong limits that blizzard has done nothing to diminish. Warriors remain the most supportable class, but also the class most in need of support.
-Jester
Haven't you seen the new spell reflect skill? That should take care of a lot of your range and cc concerns.
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10-17-2006, 05:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2006, 05:12 PM by Concillian.)
I think you're talking about PvP arguments, and Quark is more talking from a PvE raid damage perspective.
Having done pretty extensive PvP with both rogue and warrior (rank 10 rogue and rank 8 warrior) I think your assessment is very correct from that standpoint. My warrior gets downright owned in short order against most classes 1v1 he needs support to survive, even with a "PvP spec". My rogue, on the other hand, started the PvP rank grind in mostly green gear and thrash blade. With a hemo spec I could take on some classes better than my warrior in half purples ever could think of. As the rogue's gear improved, he just got better and better. I feel confident in being able to kill most classes 1 on 1 unless they're extremely well geared.
From the PvE side, it looks as if they are bringing arms up to be more in line with Fury. The bottm of the arms tree is nice, but Flurry is incredibly attractive. What really pushed warrior DPS through the roof in the original game was gear the game wasn't originally designed for. Gear will not be so out of control in the expansion unless they get caught up in significant mudflation again. There is also some rage normalization in place to guard against this. They're aware of the warrior PvE DPS "issue".
Warriors will still do decent PvE DPS, but I don't expect to see it quite as significant as it is now. Especially because of the potential need for warriors to spec hybrid rather than pure DPS because of the 25 person cap forcing more hybridization. There isn't going to be as much room for pure DPS warriors.
I'm sure quark also noticed a couple REALLY nice changes in the rogue trees too. The especially nice one is the addition of a talent that has a chance to gain back energy every off-hand hit. This finally brings gear scaling to energy (%hit, very fast off-hand weapons), so rogues will start seeing synergistic effects in the way that warriors do (stats help damage and help energy that helps damage).
I don't think rogues have too much to worry about in the PvE DPS department Quark.
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Quote:Haven't you seen the new spell reflect skill? That should take care of a lot of your range and cc concerns.
Given that most Warriors do not use a shield in PvP, it takes about 2 seconds to actually activate Spell Reflect (switch to the right stance, switch to shield - 1.5 sec global cooldown, activate skill). Most CC is either instant, or has 1.5 second cast. In addition it also requires a big chunk of rage, cannot be used against AOE spells or the projectiles already in the air, and now has a cooldown as well. So no, it won't really take care of range or CC concerns. It is one of those skills that looks great on paper, but really lacks when it comes to actual performance.
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Quote:We have neither prevention nor cure for any kind of CC, from any class.
Er, fear?
You don't know what you're talking about.
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Quote:I'm sure quark also noticed a couple REALLY nice changes in the rogue trees too. The especially nice one is the addition of a talent that has a chance to gain back energy every off-hand hit. This finally brings gear scaling to energy (%hit, very fast off-hand weapons), so rogues will start seeing synergistic effects in the way that warriors do (stats help damage and help energy that helps damage).
Pfft, One is not "a couple". Half of the new Combat talents (in total talent points spent, not individual talents -> that rate is much worse) being awful is still half. Combat Potency is a nice, unique, skill. Whether or not it is good enough remains to be seen, and it certainly doesn't make up for me not being able to decide where to spend about 9 points in Combat because I don't want to get any of the available choices.
Yes, this applies even with the new Vitality they just announced today (2%/4% Sta, 1%/2% Agi now). 8 more Agi at my gear level is a ripoff.
Quote:I don't think rogues have too much to worry about in the PvE DPS department Quark.
I do. Early reports have Hunters kicking much Rogue butt in the DPS department, Warriors beating them ( before yesterday's changes), and haven't seen anything on Mages but they were already equal to Rogues and got many, many more +damage% talents than Rogues did.
And every day Blizzard releases one minor change for Rogues while some other class got a complete overhaul I'm getting more angry. Seriously, stop with the stupid games and trying to lull us into sleep with tiny changes hoping we won't notice just how minor they are while everyone else is going up in leaps and bounds.
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Quote:I do. Early reports have Hunters kicking much Rogue butt in the DPS department, Warriors beating them (before yesterday's changes), and haven't seen anything on Mages but they were already equal to Rogues and got many, many more +damage% talents than Rogues did.
And every day Blizzard releases one minor change for Rogues while some other class got a complete overhaul I'm getting more angry. Seriously, stop with the stupid games and trying to lull us into sleep with tiny changes hoping we won't notice just how minor they are while everyone else is going up in leaps and bounds.
I'd like to see where those reports coming from, because from what I've seen, rogues are even better in DPS department on Beta, and considering that there are no DPS meters, I would be highly critical of any such "damage comparisons". Sounds to me like you read Wow Rogue forums too much ;)
Don't worry, I am sure that we will see many more rogue changes as Blizzard monitors their performance in Beta in both PvP and PvE. They took some steps today, and I am sure there are many more to come, as they continue to work out what exactly they want to see in Rogue class.
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Rogue itemisation looks better with large numbers of AP/Agi items. AP won't scale with buffs or talents but starting with 2 AP instead of 1 from STR for the same item budget has to be a good thing - effectively getting the Druid AP formula while keeping Dual Wield and a sensible attack speed. I do think Rogues could still use some mobility improvements relative to Warriors - Warriors may have trouble with kiting classes but intercept's cooldown is a lot lower than Sprint and they now can get 10% health back whenever someone roots or stuns them to escape melee.
Hunters do seem very strong indeed. I'm not sure how much this has changed - I've always been very impressed with competent Hunter DPS outside raid instances (where the pet is ineffective).
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Quote:Er, fear?
Fair enough. Given the right stance, or the right spec, a warrior has one, maybe two, answers to fear. Not tremendously good answers, but it works out well enough.
-Jester
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