The New Crusade

[kandrathe]

There are violent implications of the latest row between the Pope and entire Islamic world. Is Pope Benedict XVI a bigot, anti-islamic, acting as a defender of the Christian faith, or a theology professor asking profound questions of the world? Will this pope fan the flames of violence between Islam and the rest of the world, or will he bring the leadership of Islamic nations to justify the peaceful nature of Islam and repudiate the violence? My view is that he is playing a pretty cogent and dangerous game of brinksmanship with the islamic world. In some respects, he may be onto a better strategy. We can confront Islamic Extremism head on (resulting in some conflict), or we can sit on our hands watching the flames spread. As Sun Tzu has stated, "The best way to defeat an enemy is to defeat his strategy. The best way to defeat his strategy is to adopt it."

Background: The pope was trying to make the point that in both Christian, and Islamic history there are interpretations that the common God of both faiths is against violence. The Pope's speech It seems that what has infuriated the Islamic world is that the pope selected this particular quote, but did not repudiate the author. So people are left wondering where the Pope's opinion is regarding Manuel Paleologos II.

During a speech on Tuesday at a German university, the pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam. "The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached'." Benedict did not explicitly agree with the words nor repudiate them, but went on to say that "violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul". The Vatican said the pope did not intend the remarks to be offensive, but sought to draw attention to the incompatibility of faith and violence. From Aljazeera.net

Meanwhile, the Islamic world erupts in an uproar and more violence. Thousands march against the pope's speech.

And you get reactions from people like;

"These Christians are all infidels. Benedict himself is an infidel and a blind man. Doesn't he see that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places were waged by Christians?"

...and Catholic churches are firebombed in Gaza and the West Bank. I just get worried when the tinder is so dry that a spark like a Danish Cartoon, or a reference to a conversation from 600 years ago can ignite WW4. I also came upon another interesting site, JihadWatch.Org, in my research here.

[Doc]

Pope. Islam is violent!

Islam. No we are not!

Pope. Yes you are!

Islam. ARE NOT!!! **Firebombs a church and kills people to prove their point**

Islam. See, I told you we are not violent, this is a religion of peace! And sex with goats who must now wear privacy diapers because the sight of exposed goat vaginas make our men wild and have lustful thoughts, and then they have to marry the goat.

Pope. So, you are violent and in to beastiality?

Islam. NO WE ARE NOT! **Assorted explosions and wild barnyard sounds are heard in the background**

Sigh

So... When these guys get their 72 virgins or whatever when they die, how come there is not an explicit statement of what KIND of virgins they get?

Baa.

Baa?

[Doc]

[kandrathe]

[imagine]http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20060911/ltr060911.gif[/imagine]

Great comic! :) The funny thing to me is that "infidel" (infidelis) was a pre-Prophet term used by Christians to label the unfaithful or pagans. To label the Pope as an infidel is irony to the point of absurdity.

[Occhidiangela]

And you get reactions from people like; ...and Catholic churches are firebombed in Gaza and the West Bank. I just get worried when the tinder is so dry that a spark like a Danish Cartoon, or a reference to a conversation from 600 years ago can ignite WW4. I also came upon another interesting site, JihadWatch.Org, in my research here.

Definition of the Modern Middle Eastern Muslim:

Fool walking around with a chip on his shoulder, waiting for an excuse to riot over the slightest perception of offense, unaware that he is being cynically manipulated by a rather small cadre of symbol and spin mongers. (Hmmm, that definition fits abortion clinic bombers to a T, and certain rogues who lay in wait for eurotrash. :P )

Mohamed would roll over in his grave. Well, at least he'd have the 72 vrgins roll him over, in the clover, roll me over lay me down and do it again . . . except they never did it in the first place, since they are still virgins. :blink:

I note that some of the old jokes about Iran being turned to glass have been making the rounds again, with the new feature being that holders of public office and "serious columnists" like Krauthammer (that name is either a Bavarian or Yiddish dialect slang term for "shil" can't trace the etymology) are making them, rather than political cartoonists.

"Let's do the Time Warp again!."

The recycling Reagan era witicisms is encouraging, however, as it means we might get a return of Joe Piscopo and Eddie Murphy on SNL. That might be a good thing. We also might see a Timbuck Three reunion tour.

If I may misquote Raoul Duke: "My advice to you is to start drinking heavily."

Occhi

[Fragbait]

Hi,

It's true. Many Muslims are overreacting (want to overreact?). Even some Turkish officials, like the head of the ministry of religious affairs, because they only read the quote that has been stripped out of context.

The Turkish minister has now apologized and will be reading an verbatim translation soon.
The Pope has stated that he is sorry if some parts of his lecture caused resentment among Muslims. That was exactly what he didn't want, since he is a firm believer in the necessity of rapprochement between the two most prevalent religions.

If any of you are interested, here is the complete lecture, even in an English translation, from which the quote of the emperor is extracted.

Greetings, Fragbait

[kandrathe]

... because they only read the quote that has been stripped out of context...

I think for some muslims that is true.

For others I believe they are pursuing a Jihad (in the militant convert by sword sense) against the west.



Mr. Pope be within your limits -- means to me, accept your role as Dhimmi or die.

My view of the average middle eastern muslim (or their son) is...



Western apologists claim we are pushing them to this extreme. I don't think so. I see it as a continuation of a 1500 year trend.

[Occhidiangela]

My view of the average middle eastern muslim (or their son) is...

I see it as a continuation of a 1500 year trend.

I see it as a bunch of really stupid sheep, goats, and other herd animals being maneuvered about by a group of Islamist dogs. A key sheparding practice is to vigorously limit the terms and language of the public dialogue.

"Beware of the power of stupid people in large groups."

The Muslims are not the first, nor will they be the last, to play this game. Nor are they the only players in the current game.

Occhi

[Merlinios]

Nor are they the only players in the current game.

And people would do well to remember (discover?) that. It's really the root of the current problem, as I suspect it will be the root of most future non-environmental-(oil, overpopulation, etc. included)-based problems.

Scary thought: does suicide bombing extend to nuclear war?

--me

[Griselda]

I think a lot of the Turks are probably miffed that he referred to "Constantinople". Apparently the Pope isn't up to date on his They Might Be Giants, either. :P

[Merlinios]

I think a lot of the Turks are probably miffed that he referred to "Constantinople". Apparently the Pope isn't up to date on his They Might Be Giants, either. :P

Good thing the Turks are there to lend him the album, then. I hear they're so big in Turkey that they're thinking of changing it to "They Might Be Turkish".

--me

[Taem]

Scary thought: does suicide bombing extend to nuclear war?

I saw this movie once, I don't remember anything about it except the terrorist in the movie had a small-scale nuclear bomb attached to his persona and was suffering from massive radiation poisioning before he had even reached his destination. I don't recall if the bomb went off or not in the movie, but I belive there probbably are - but have never heard of - detectors in place in the US for such high levels of radioactivity, not only for nuclear bombs smuggled into the country, but for our safety.

[kandrathe]

I saw this movie once, I don't remember anything about it except the terrorist in the movie had a small-scale nuclear bomb attached to his persona and was suffering from massive radiation poisioning before he had even reached his destination. I don't recall if the bomb went off or not in the movie, but I belive there probbably are - but have never heard of - detectors in place in the US for such high levels of radioactivity, not only for nuclear bombs smuggled into the country, but for our safety.

First of all to the question; if they can justify blowing themselves up on a bus to kill a dozen women and children...

So, why do you think they would target the US first? And, I would think there would be other symbolic targets that would be easier, and would bring the weak of heart to at least claim neutrality. I would think getting close would be good enough. I would think Toronto, Vancouver, or Tijuana would be close enough, easier, and still effective if your goal is "Terror". How hard would it be to get a ship loaded with a shielded one into the Chesapeake Bay, or into the Gulf of Mexico when the prevailing winds were just right?

[kandrathe]

I see it as a bunch of really stupid sheep, goats, and other herd animals being maneuvered about by a group of Islamist dogs. A key sheparding practice is to vigorously limit the terms and language of the public dialogue.

"Beware of the power of stupid people in large groups."

The Muslims are not the first, nor will they be the last, to play this game. Nor are they the only players in the current game.

Occhi

Baaaaa... 60 yr old Italian Nun shot in the back in Mogadishu might possibly be linked to Somali cleric calls for pope's death Do you think the Nun's killing might have been inspired by Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin's call for punishment? I guess if you can't hike on up to Italy to attack that peace monger personally, then any proxy murder will do. If there are no obviously Catholic of Italian people around then any westerner would do to set an example. Now, Mr. Pope, apologize for saying violence is incompatible with God, or else...

This article is a pretty good analysis of the situation. What I find most disturbing is how limiting are the options in this dialogue. The sentiment is that since we are not muslims, we have no right to discuss the topic, or as Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has offered us the options; Convert to Islam, or as he replied to Mike Wallace "Those who refuse to accept an invitation will not have a good ending or fate." Now he might have meant in the afterlife, but I kind of think he meant they would help usher us there.

[Occhidiangela]

First of all to the question; if they can justify blowing themselves up on a bus to kill a dozen women and children...

So, why do you think they would target the US first? And, I would think there would be other symbolic targets that would be easier, and would bring the weak of heart to at least claim neutrality. I would think getting close would be good enough. I would think Toronto, Vancouver, or Tijuana would be close enough, easier, and still effective if your goal is "Terror". How hard would it be to get a ship loaded with a shielded one into the Chesapeake Bay, or into the Gulf of Mexico when the prevailing winds were just right?

Five churches attacked in Palestinian areas following Pope's comments on Islam ALI DARAGHMEH NABLUS, West Bank (AP)
- Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza on Saturday, following remarks by Pope Benedict that angered many Muslims. No injuries were reported in the attacks, which left church doors charred and walls pockmarked with bullet holes and scorched by firebombs. Churches of various denominations were targeted.

Like I said, just looking for an excuse to attack via symbol, in this case the Pope as a symbol of Christians, irrespective of sect.

Gris: Constantinople was the name of IStanbul in the 1400s, and I suspect the Pope is more interested in keeping in good terms with the Patriarchs than with Muslims or Turks. It was a Christian citry for about five centuries longer than it has been a Muslim city. Given some Muslims desire to reclaim all land once under the rule of Islam, such as Al Andalus and much of the Balkans, I heartily approve of his use of the archaic term. He is well within his right to say whatever he damned well pleases. His intent was not to harm, but to open the door. I find his apology a mark of cowardice, and a play into the hands of those in the Muslim world who wish to censor free speech in lands beyond their own.

Those are fighting words, and actions.

Of course, we would have to declare war on Germany again, and on America, (uh oh, fight ourselves?) thanks to the censorship laws being pushed here.

*scratches head*

Hmm, not sure that is a best fit solution, need more coffee.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Like I said, just looking for an excuse to attack via symbol, in this case the Pope as a symbol of Christians, irrespective of sect.

GRis: Constantinople was the name of IStanbul in the 1400s, and I suspect the Pope is more interested in keeping in good terms with the Patriarchs than with Muslims or Turks. It was a Christian citry for about five centuries longer than it has been a Muslim city. Given some Muslims desire to reclaim all land once under the rule of Islam, such as Al Andalus and much of the Balkans, I heartily approve of his use of the archaic term. He is well within his right to say whatever he damned well pleases. His intent was not to harm, but to open the door. I find his apology a mark of cowardice, and a play into the hands of those in the Muslim world who wish to censor free speech in lands beyond their own.

For that, I'd gladly go to war. Screw the oil, and screw the WMD. You want to tell me what I can or can't say? Those are fighting words.

Occhi

Well, his apology so far was to apologize for them getting upset, and not understanding what he was saying. As in, "I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address ... which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims..."

I am sorry that some muslims are such closed minded mongers of death, and others do nothing to denounce the murderers among them who justify their violence with the Quran.

Then over in Gaza...

Hizbullah called on the Vatican to review the pope's "declared attitude which can lead to world divisions and from which the enemies of humanity - the neo-conservatives led by (US President George W.) Bush and the neo-racists and Nazis, the Zionists who attack civilians and the land - can benefit.” "We will blow up all of Gaza’s churches"

So is that Hizbullah, that new political party, or the one comprised of terrorists? Wow, and :blink:they are fighting the Nazi's now, as well as neo-cons, neo-racists, zionists, and I would guess any other non-muslims they run across. Good to know.

[eppie]

How hard would it be to get a ship loaded with a shielded one into the Chesapeake Bay, or into the Gulf of Mexico when the prevailing winds were just right?

Well actually quite hard.
The whole fact with this muslim crazyness is that we have some countries that are terribly underdeveloped, but at the same time continuously in contact with 'westerners' which they will probably all call christians (these oldfashioned societies don't even consider not being religious...just as in europe 500 years ago).
Thes people (and that is the most important thing) have nothing to lose. And if you have nothing to lose it is very easy to behave like a moron....what do you care. And remember that there is nothing that gives people such a good feeling than a nice riot against 'them'.

Anyway, if some kind of war would break out (muslims against the rest of the world) it would take the west 47 seconds to destroy their 'armies' so we don't have anything to be scared of.
And seeing as the worst strategy now is to start using violence ourselves (the enormous increase in thread after the US invaded Iraq is a good example of that). If you create a large scale conflict you force people to make a choice....and I can tell you one thing; every non violent well educated muslim will chose the side of the muslims (I mean think about what you would do yourself in such a situation).

So just let the pope apologize so that those guys stop there rioting. At a certain point they will reealize the pointlessness of their behaviour, and hopefully start thinking about creating a developed society as well.
If only they realize that religion should not be part of that. But that might be difficult...they even think the pope speaks for all of us, while in reality he just speaks for some italian octogenarians, and everybody else thinks he is crazy.:D

[Occhidiangela]

How hard would it be to get a ship loaded with a shielded one into the Chesapeake Bay, or into the Gulf of Mexico when the prevailing winds were just right?

Read Bernard Cornwell's book "Scoundrel" for a method. Not really that hard.

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

Sticks and stones (and maybe guns and bombs)....

Some people really suck at life.:(

But seriously, everything in this world gets insulted. No individual group is special. Certainly they can be offended, but extreme reactions to everything just make everything worse and make them look stupid. Which makes them a easier target for more jibes.

So... When these guys get their 72 virgins or whatever when they die, how come there is not an explicit statement of what KIND of virgins they get?

Forgot to read the fine print. They stay virgins.

[kandrathe]

Well actually quite hard.
The whole fact with this muslim crazyness is that we have some countries that are terribly underdeveloped, but at the same time continuously in contact with 'westerners' which they will probably all call christians (these oldfashioned societies don't even consider not being religious...just as in europe 500 years ago).
Thes people (and that is the most important thing) have nothing to lose. And if you have nothing to lose it is very easy to behave like a moron....what do you care. And remember that there is nothing that gives people such a good feeling than a nice riot against 'them'.

Anyway, if some kind of war would break out (muslims against the rest of the world) it would take the west 47 seconds to destroy their 'armies' so we don't have anything to be scared of.
And seeing as the worst strategy now is to start using violence ourselves (the enormous increase in thread after the US invaded Iraq is a good example of that). If you create a large scale conflict you force people to make a choice....and I can tell you one thing; every non violent well educated muslim will chose the side of the muslims (I mean think about what you would do yourself in such a situation).

So just let the pope apologize so that those guys stop there rioting. At a certain point they will reealize the pointlessness of their behaviour, and hopefully start thinking about creating a developed society as well.
If only they realize that religion should not be part of that. But that might be difficult...they even think the pope speaks for all of us, while in reality he just speaks for some italian octogenarians, and everybody else thinks he is crazy.:D

In their world, if you are a Christian or a Jew you have the option of living as an equal if you convert, or as a slave (Dhimmi) if you refuse to convert but pay a heavy tax, otherwise if you are a Pagan unbeliever you can (or some interpret should) be slaughtered as an animal. When you try to disagree with that philosophy they will ignore you as a demon inspired mongrel dog. In their teachings / beliefs, Islam is the height of civilization. So, how *messed up* is it that you are saying the Pope is crazy, while not saying anything about the Islamic clerics who are calling for the pope's death? You think he should grovel before the islamacists and apologize for saying that "violence is inconsistent with God"? With this view eppie, you will be one of those with a gun to your head, and a boot on your neck professing the blessing of Allah.

Population and poverty are a part of the problem in some areas, however these are also issues in Latin America and Africa. Those nations which have been islamicized are markedly more violent. "At the end of 2003 the world's Catholic population was 1.086 billion, of 17.23 percent of the entire world population, Fides reports. The largest gains in Catholic population appeared in Africa and Latin America. -- CWNews.com"

However we also see that even someone as well off as OBL will turn to violence in the name of faith. There are somewhere between 1 and 1.5 BILLION Muslims living around the globe, so if there is an armed struggle it will be bad. I would also believe it might include the indirect support of certain "angry at the West, but non-Islamic" nations, like Venezuala, Cuba, or North Korea.