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I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I was talking about his own personal BG experience on Tich.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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What does posting count and how many posts a person have to do with the quality of someone's opinion?
FYI -MJ's as bad as Sirian was when he was decrying PvP in D2. So how long I've been lurking has nothing to do with it.
As for strong opinions - I'm used to posting on the FoH boards, where debate is pretty vigorous.
Anyway, someone mentioned in this thread about Shaman's being far better as healers and damage dealers. I never said I wanted Paladins to be damage dealers first and healers second. However, Shaman are _good_ healers quite naturally. A paladin's base flash heal is 343-383 or so. 115 more with blessing of light. And before you say, please use holy light - how many times do you use Healing Wave? Exactly. Want to complain about mana efficiency? Irrelevant - you can use lower ranks of LHW to achieve the same effect at slightly increased cost as Flash of Light.
Furthermore - it's a LOT easier for a shaman to add meaningful damage to a fight. Flash heal, shock, flash heal, shock, Lightning bolt-shock. All while staying within 20-40 yards. A paladin can run in and swing, but going in to melee is generally a bad idea. And a paladin must use a slow two-hander to do any sorts of meaningful burst damage in PvP. Why are Paladins limited to Seal of Command and slow two-handers? Why does it's mechanics demand you use as slow a weapon as possible? Why do Paladins have to focus in Strength, Agility, Stamina and Intelligence? As a shaman, you can focus in straight eagle or m/5 gear and be effective. To be effective as a Paladin you have to have stam and int, and also have a high amount of strength as well. The added 665 AP from Windfury weapon, along with the fact that it's a flat 20% proc means that you can use it with any weapon you choose and enjoy extremely powerful attacks. Paladins are stuck with using slow two-handed weapons.
PvP is all about SPEED. How FAST can you attack? How FAST can you heal? How FAST can you react to someone's strategy and counter it? Survivability is not rewarded anywhere in the game except perhaps in defending a node in AB, and GY zerg.
Someone posted that Shaman have better aggro control than Paladins, and that it's balanced because Shaman have less surviability. I call that a lie. I would rather keep a mob OFF a priest or a mage and have them live. Then I would simply Earthbind-Frost Shock kite the mob. (Which is very very possible in AQ/ZG/5man instances). That is using skill and abilities to pull cool stuff off. What can I do as a paladin?
Tell me another thing: Why is it that I have to use WhisperCast or BuffAhoy to make my gameply more enjoyable? BuffAhoy or WhisperCast doesn't make gameplay ez-mode like SpellAlert or Decursive - it just makes playing a Paladin in raids bearable. What other class has to use a mod so the game is bearable?
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Riot,Dec 11 2005, 12:34 PM Wrote:Someone posted that Shaman have better aggro control than Paladins, and that it's balanced because Shaman have less surviability. I call that a lie. I would rather keep a mob OFF a priest or a mage and have them live. Then I would simply Earthbind-Frost Shock kite the mob. (Which is very very possible in AQ/ZG/5man instances). That is using skill and abilities to pull cool stuff off. What can I do as a paladin?
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I didn't claim it kept it balanced. I claimed that was what Blizzard was trying to balance with and that the shaman and the paladin need to be balanced in some way for tanking. Right now simply because of aggro control the shaman is a better off tank than a paladin. A paladin is still a better PvE main tank because they take less damage but 1.9 which really doesn't help aggro control and some claim hurts it, hurts that too.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
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Riot,Dec 11 2005, 12:34 PM Wrote:... What other class has to use a mod so the game is bearable?
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Mages! :P
~Frag
Hardcore Diablo 1/2/3/4 & Retail/Classic WoW adventurer.
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Rinnhart,Dec 10 2005, 05:46 PM Wrote:I worded that wrong, but you've always seemed to underestimate how long it takes and how repetitive it is for paladins with no addon help to buff and keep a raid force buffed, so I'm not sure why I bother to attempt the point, anymore.
I conceeded the point quite some time ago. It seems like Blizz has too, cause not only are they making it more convient for you, they are giving you a MASSIVE PVE buff too.
Quote:I got the name wrong. It was "Gurubashi Catacombs" and it was mentioned in Blizzcon coverage. Google it.
Thanks for pointing it out. The tidbit I found about it was sort of interesting. The fact that 1v1 combat is unbalanced is not news to anybody who reads blue posts. The fact that they cancelled a BG means nothing. People scrap bad ideas all the time. Blizz scrapped an entire game that was 95% complete once. Does that mean that OMG they can't design games?
Quote: You are, in a round about way, defending the Honor System. Why would you do that? WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO THAT?
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This comment is wrong on so very many levels that I'm not going to steer this thread any farther off course by responding to it here.
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Riot,Dec 11 2005, 12:34 PM Wrote:What other class has to use a mod so the game is bearable?
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Priests, Druids and warlocks for starters. Warlocks especially, but they aren't bearable.
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12-13-2005, 02:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2005, 02:27 AM by Rinnhart.)
Your post amounts to "LA LA LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" and ignores the points anyone actually cares about.
"AND THEN THE PALADIN TOOK MY EYES!"
Forever oppressed by the GOLs.
Grom Hellscream: [Orcish] kek
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Rinnhart,Dec 13 2005, 02:24 AM Wrote:Your post amounts to "LA LA LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" and ignores the points anyone actually cares about.
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Whereas you're just assuming you speak for everybody.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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The Hammer fell again on test, last night, nerfing BoSanctuary down to 35 damage a block at max rank and breaking Holy Shield and Sanctuary's ability to proc judgement effects.
They need to just remove Seal of the Crusader from the game, it's completely pointless, now. A "Requires 31 points in Holy" to all our Protection and Retribution talents might be good, too.
Some further chatter about wisdom no longer procing off any non-melee effects. The obvious intent was to prevent double procs from JoW with SoRighteousness and Command. Some people are claiming it extends to ranged attacks and spell damage of all kinds, though. I assume that's a bug, but even removing the double procs really means we're out in the cold.
Good job, Blizzard, will the next patch add a "Kick Me" sign to my back? Perhaps a class specific outbreak of leprosy?
"AND THEN THE PALADIN TOOK MY EYES!"
Forever oppressed by the GOLs.
Grom Hellscream: [Orcish] kek
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lfd,Dec 13 2005, 08:17 AM Wrote:Whereas you're just assuming you speak for everybody.
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What, you really want me to carry on for four or five pages about his remaining comments, which are mostly jabs at me? He dropped the class balance arguement, so I'm snubbing the bait for another fanboi flamefest. Hasn't the Lounge seen enough of that?
"AND THEN THE PALADIN TOOK MY EYES!"
Forever oppressed by the GOLs.
Grom Hellscream: [Orcish] kek
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12-13-2005, 11:32 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2005, 11:35 PM by Xukuth.)
oldmandennis,Dec 12 2005, 02:05 AM Wrote:I conceeded the point quite some time ago. It seems like Blizz has too, cause not only are they making it more convient for you, they are giving you a MASSIVE PVE buff too.
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Please, elucidate.
How is a 15-minute duration buff on all members of a single class (that requires a reagent) a massive PvE buff?
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Xukuth,Dec 13 2005, 03:32 PM Wrote:Please, elucidate.
How is a 15-minute duration buff on all members of a single class (that requires a reagent) a massive PvE buff?
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Because now 5-6 palladins can keep every useful blessing on every character in a raid, for the duration of most fights. Previously, this seems to have been impractical based on comments made on this board. The reagent is irrelevent, the cost of it is miniscule compared to the cost of a wipe.
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oldmandennis,Dec 13 2005, 06:41 PM Wrote:Because now 5-6 palladins can keep every useful blessing on every character in a raid, for the duration of most fights. Previously, this seems to have been impractical based on comments made on this board. The reagent is irrelevent, the cost of it is miniscule compared to the cost of a wipe.
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Yep. If we had 4 or 5 paladins certain buffs would just not be refreshed on longer fights on some classes (might on rogues and non MT's, wisdom on mages, locks, and hunters). Salvation and kings would always get priority and healers would get wisdom if you could. Now you can buff the whole raid in a short time and those buffs will stay up for everyone through the whole thing. The whole raid will have Blessing of Light on it as well (which they previously didn't) making paladin spot healing better as well. Unless that group buff was taken away again as well (it might have been). It is a big buff to PvE buffing.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
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oldmandennis,Dec 13 2005, 06:41 PM Wrote:Because now 5-6 palladins can keep every useful blessing on every character in a raid, for the duration of most fights. Previously, this seems to have been impractical based on comments made on this board. The reagent is irrelevent, the cost of it is miniscule compared to the cost of a wipe.
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News to me. In every high-end raid I've ever been on, all useful Paladin buffs have been up all the time in combat.
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Xukuth,Dec 13 2005, 04:17 PM Wrote:News to me. In every high-end raid I've ever been on, all useful Paladin buffs have been up all the time in combat.
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With whispercast, yeah, there's no reason not to have everyone buffed with everything they need, all the time.
This just makes the class 1/3 less of an absolute PITA to play without modding.
GOOD THING THEY BALANCED THAT THAR BUFF BY MAKING US GROUP DEPENDANT.
"AND THEN THE PALADIN TOOK MY EYES!"
Forever oppressed by the GOLs.
Grom Hellscream: [Orcish] kek
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12-14-2005, 12:30 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2005, 12:45 AM by Xukuth.)
Rinnhart,Dec 13 2005, 07:26 PM Wrote:With whispercast, yeah, there's no reason not to have everyone buffed with everything they need, all the time.
This just makes the class 1/3 less of an absolute PITA to play without modding.
GOOD THING THEY BALANCED THAT THAR BUFF BY MAKING US GROUP DEPENDANT.
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Oh, I fully agree. It's ridiculous that I should have to use mods just to cut down on the utter tedium of constantly buffing.
It's not really a PvE buff so much as it is realizing that having to buff one person every 7.5 seconds (on average) isn't cool.
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Rinnhart,Dec 13 2005, 10:16 PM Wrote:What, you really want me to carry on for four or five pages about his remaining comments, which are mostly jabs at me? He dropped the class balance arguement, so I'm snubbing the bait for another fanboi flamefest. Hasn't the Lounge seen enough of that?
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Actually, I think it's just the tone that I read in your posts that moved me to comment. It may be misplaced - and you're right not to respond to the ad hominem attacks - but in my reading of the thread, an awful lot of the aggression is coming from you.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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Rinnhart,Dec 13 2005, 03:10 PM Wrote:The Hammer fell again on test, last night, nerfing BoSanctuary down to 35 damage a block at max rank and breaking Holy Shield and Sanctuary's ability to proc judgement effects.
And here we thought paladins were going to be buffed this patch...
I really long for some specific Blizzard insights into why they consider the class balanced/imbalanced on the specific things they doing. For instance, transferring Repentence to Retribution and then bouncing up Holy Shield/etc. Or nerfing JoWisdom's ability to restore mana to casters and hunters, transforming a formerly raid-useful paladin skill into a front-line-paladins-only skill, while not giving paladins any real improvement in survivability on the front line.
My point of view is that of a PvE paladin doing instances, and a PvE druid doing the raids, so I'm not so much concerned with PvP, but... I'm just not seeing any big improvements for PvE paladins.
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lfd,Dec 13 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:Actually, I think it's just the tone that I read in your posts that moved me to comment. It may be misplaced - and you're right not to respond to the ad hominem attacks - but in my reading of the thread, an awful lot of the aggression is coming from you.
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It hasn't been a good month.
"AND THEN THE PALADIN TOOK MY EYES!"
Forever oppressed by the GOLs.
Grom Hellscream: [Orcish] kek
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Reviewing the thread, there are perhaps two spots where I could possibly be considered to be making "jabs at you".
1) My tone might have been off when I asked you why you bother with a paladin. If it offended, I apologise. It was actually a serious question. I am genuinly curious why you would spend so much time playing and posting about something you find broken and boring, created by morons.
2) I dismissed one of your comments as "Wrong on so many levels". However, I was responding to the hysterical and unwarrented tone of your comment. Since I have the time today, I will make a seperate post explaining the levels of wrongness.
On the other hand, the term Fanboi is an offensive adhominem attack, there is no other way to paint it. While I'll cop to being a fan (and still don't understand why you put this level of investment into something if you are not) based on this definition I don't think I qualify as a fanboi. I base this on the fact that I believe Blizzard has made and continues to make several mistakes including:
Shameful lack of stability for the "terrible twenty" servers for the first 6 months of the game
Releasing the honor system before battle grounds led to excessive ganking of characters in thier 50's
Very poor talents for hunters and druids
Abominably buggy and laggy release of BWL
Some shaman talents are completly useless
Lack of a crackdown on professional farmers
Lack of a crackdown on AV leechers
Poor caster itemization
Uneven class content
etc.
Having a bad month is no reason to be rude.
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