Retribution/Holy Paladin

[Kevin]

So I spec'd my paladin retribution/holy and I want to stick with it even in the raid game for a little bit before I consider a more raid friendly build. With my mediocre gear I'm able to sustain 100+ DPS while tanking and I get up around 150 DPS while soloing or trying to play a DPS role so I'm not horribly bad. I haven't done DM, scholo, strat or and of the BRS stuff for gear yet as I just hit 60, and well it's so damn easy to hit 60 in this game (especially if you end up in BRD several times to help others out with quests you've done in thre). Anyway I'm wondering where my last point should go.

This is what I have right now, pretty standard retribution/holy build I think.

Holy Talents - 19 points
# Spiritual Focus - rank 5/5
# Improved Holy Light - rank 3/3
# Illumination - rank 5/5
# Improved Blessing of Wisdom - rank 5/5
# Divine Favor - rank 1/1

Retribution Talents - 31 points
# Improved Blessing of Might - rank 5/5
# Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - rank 5/5
# Deflection - rank 5/5
# Vengeance - rank 5/5
# Seal of Command - rank 1/1
# Precision - rank 3/3
# Consecration - rank 1/1
# Conviction - rank 5/5
# Blessing of Kings - rank 1/1

The question is where does the last point go?

Out:
# Improved Retribution - 1 more point of returned damage? Bleh
# Anticipation - 2 def not worth it
# Improved Seal of Crusader - I'm not going to be judging or running it much, if ever at the stage of the game I'm at.
# Benediction - I could put one point in divine wisdom for 2% more mana vs 3% less cost on a subset.
# Improved Concentration Aura - I'm already uninterruptable for my healing when it's up most other casters don't need it when they are casting either.
# Improved Seal or Righteousness - 3% more damage on a seal I don't use much (I still use command on one handers a lot because the command hitting give me a chance to get mana back from judged wisdom as well a right hit doesn't, if I'm wearing a shield because I'm healing I might use this if I don't need more mana and I'm whacking for a little more DPS but 3% on this doesn't really do much)
# Improved Flash of Light - Yeah I can make a high mana efficiency even higher but I'd need a strong argument for this one
# Improved Lay on Hands - A very short armor buff from a spell that rarely gets used no thanks.

Thinking about
# Revelation - 50 minutes vs 60 on Divine Intervention and Lay of Hands, makes them more usable and there isn't a lot more I can do with the point
# Divine Wisdom - Not so great with one point, but 90 - 110 mana is almost one more flash heal in my caster gear.
# Improved Devotion Aura - Not great but more armor does help the squishies some if they get aggro and I do still have some 5 mans to do.
# Redoubt - Yeah an odd choice, but I do get hit at times while healing in the smaller groups and it would offer a little more damage reduction when I'm tanking since I won't have a really high defense set, I will get critted at times.


I don't really see any other choices for the last point. The stuff I said is out I can be convinced on but it will take a stronger argument. I'm not doing a full respec anytime soon I'm just looking for advice on the last point. I listed the thinking abouts in my strongest leaning to my weakest leaning as well.

Thoughts, comments?

[Skandranon]

# Revelation - 50 minutes vs 60 on Divine Intervention and Lay of Hands, makes them more usable and there isn't a lot more I can do with the point
# Divine Wisdom - Not so great with one point, but 90 - 110 mana is almost one more flash heal in my caster gear.
[right][snapback]90995[/snapback][/right]

I think it generally comes down to a choice between these two. Of them, I prefer Revelation. The only times it doesn't come in handy is if you habitually forget that you have the DI and LoH abilities (something I am guilty of most of the time). Especially for trying new fights, this can be the difference between being able to use it two out of three attempts and two out of four attempts.

[vor_lord]

You have both improved blessing of wisdom and improved blessing of might?

It all depends on what you end up doing. With my paladin, I don't ever tank, I don't ever primary heal -- my role is blessings, DPS (it's not so bad with retribution), and helping get the healer out of a tight spot.

I went for this:

Corwin's build

My blessing of protection is one of the biggest contributions I have so I opted to go for improving it, even though it cost me 7 points (redoubt and improved devotion both are pretty lame for my role so I consider them wasted).

Were I to respec, I'd probably go with improved blessing of might over benediction. Benediction was for consecrate spam, but that messes up the tank's job, and I'm not soloing so much as I was.

[Kevin]

You have both improved blessing of wisdom and improved blessing of might?
[right][snapback]91001[/snapback][/right]

Yes I do because well I use those blessing all the time in 5 man and figure I will in small raids as well. I knew I would end up being a buffbot so I chose to improve my buffs. I use both of them solo depending on what I'm doing as well. There are other kings paladins out there as well so now I still have something else to offer to the raid if I'm not one of the ones throwing kings on my groups.

[Tal]

I think it generally comes down to a choice between these two.  Of them, I prefer Revelation.  The only times it doesn't come in handy is if you habitually forget that you have the DI and LoH abilities (something I am guilty of most of the time).  Especially for trying new fights, this can be the difference between being able to use it two out of three attempts and two out of four attempts.
[right][snapback]90997[/snapback][/right]

Not to be contrary but I prefer Divine Wisdom in this case. DI and LoH are used often on Avarice raids so there is usually at least two paladins who have the ability ready for cast at any point. Add in soulstones and the numbers increase. :)

[Rinnhart]

Revelation or keep it hanging and use it as a conversation piece during those slow nights.

Me.

[Tal]

Revelation or keep it hanging and use it as a conversation piece during those slow nights.

Me.
[right][snapback]91115[/snapback][/right]

Whoa. If a paladin can be effective without spending his last point then it is clear that paladins as a class MUST be nerfed. Think about the chaos you are sowing here Rinnhart! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria! :D

[Rinnhart]

Whoa. If a paladin can be effective without spending his last point then it is clear that paladins as a class MUST be nerfed. Think about the chaos you are sowing here Rinnhart! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!  :D
[right][snapback]91126[/snapback][/right]

WHAT HAVE I DONE?

[Sterling]

Amusingly enough there was a recent post on the Blizzard WoW Forums about a paladin who made it to level 60 without spending any talent points. This paladin was reported to perform tolerably well when compared to other paladins.

If you consider the paladin talent trees there are very few vital or necessary talents. The ones that are close are: Seal of Command & Spiritual Focus.

Spiritual Focus allows paladins to cast heals while being attacked. Very useful when mobbed, useful when soloing, and unimportant while healing and not tanking. On the flip side, when a paladin is mobbed he IS going to die quickly because he can't heal himself fast enough. When soloing taking on multiple mobs is counterproductive anyway. With a single mob attacking, a paladin can heal through the interupts just fine.

Seal of Command increases DPS by ~15-25%, which is important for the low DPS paladin, however Seal of Righteousness increases DPS by ~10-20% and it does not require a talent point.

What maxed talent points in an area do for the paladin is to add ~0-15% to various areas of performance.

Let's say you spend all your talents making an ultimate healing Paladin. Your talent points give you 10% more mana, +5 mana per tick with ImpBOW, 12% more healing with HL, 12% less mana used with FoL, virtually uninteruptable, and critical heals (~5% of the time) will return all mana used.

All of that isn't bad, but it doesn't make a pure healing spec all that much better from an untalented paladin. The rest of the trees are similiar in the lack of definite advantage.

The other important point to consider is that intelligent players who choose to play a paladin, and take on the challenege (or even consider it) of playing a paladin with unspent talent points, are going to be aware of their weaknesses and their strengths. These players are lightyears ahead of the average paladin. The average paladin has a ret build with Seal of Command, Blessing of Kings, and never heals. The average paladin plan is to run up to monsters and autoattack until they die.

In summary:
Paladins are less talent dependent than other classes. They are more dependent upon gear and upon player strategy choices.