The Seizing of Guns in New Orleans

[Doc]

Get really angry folks. There is a huge press blackout on the confiscation of guns in NO.

A little quote to get the juices flowing.

"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."

Texas State Rep. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp

And now a link. Gun Owners of America.

Some interesting movies there. The one about the police tackling and beating down an elderly woman to take her gun away is particularly touching and heart felt.

Talk to your representative. Speak to your local elected official. Talk to your local press outlet and get them to raise a stink about this. This blackout is huge and far reaching. There are already some government head types already hard at work saying this is a media fabrication and it never ever happened or that it is not a big deal if it did.

Let there be anger and outrage. Do not let this be swept under the rug and forgotten.

[eppie]

Get really angry folks. There is a huge press blackout on the confiscation of guns in NO.

I'm not sure if I get the point here. You are angry because the police is taking guns from the people in NO?.

Isn't police brutality the problem here? (at least that is how I interpret the pictures you posted)


eppie

[Doc]

That too. The whole damn situation. All of it. It is more than the guns. It's how they are taking them too. And sweeping everything under the rug and trying to keep it away from the public eye.

This is THEFT. Strong arm robbery. Illegal theft. It is criminal behaviour. There were acts of murder committed during these acts of theft.

And somebody should be made to pay for it.

[Zarathustra]

The clip of the elderly woman was linked on their website solely to tug on the ol' heartstrings and get people pissed off. It had only a tangential relationship to the issue of the confiscation of guns in New Orleans. The issue in that clip was whether or not the police should be allowed to use force to remove people that did not want to leave.

Notice there is also a cut in the film before the actual "tackle". Did she brandish the gun as if to fire? Did she set it down and they tackled her anyway? We don't know. If anything, this clip serves to muddy the waters of the issue.

I'm with you in that firearms should not be confiscated from those who have commited no crimes and are in every right to possess them, especially with what we've seen of looting in New Orleans. But at the same time, the addition of this clip on the gun owners website seems as much a media ploy as those concerning them.

It will serve them in getting a few more folks riled up.


Edit/Addition: After finishing reading through the GOA website, I see that their issue is twofold, whereas the thread here is not. I can see why they added the clip to the site, but still feel it does nothing for the discussion of gun confiscations.

[roguebanshee]

Illegal theft.
[right][snapback]89417[/snapback][/right]

And what would legal theft be? :P

As for the topic, I only see that as a result of the already widespread weapons in the US. Any semi-intelligent looter/thug will carry a weapon because guns are so common already. And because looters/thugs carry weapons you need a gun to defend yourself. The only people who benefit are the weapons manufacturers and gun shop owners.

[Occhidiangela]

The only people who benefit are the weapons manufacturers and gun shop owners.
[right][snapback]89436[/snapback][/right]

I don't see a problem here.

Occhi

[Ashock]

And what would legal theft be? :P

[right][snapback]89436[/snapback][/right]

Income taxes.



-A

[Doc]

Income taxes.
-A
[right][snapback]89446[/snapback][/right]

That sounds about right.

[Rhydderch Hael]

And what would legal theft be? :P ...[right][snapback]89436[/snapback][/right]

"Legal" theft would use the letter of the law to seize property while violating the spirit of the law.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I agree completely, it is a matter of personal responsibility. And the 'nice folk' that loot, shoot at relief workers, and otherwise misuse their guns should be shot on sight -- with *no* repercussions to the shooters. Again, a matter of personal responsibility. I'd let them keep their guns, as the bumper stickers say, in their cold dead hands.

--Pete

[Lady Vashj]

"Legal" theft would use the letter of the law to seize property while violating the spirit of the law.
[right][snapback]89465[/snapback][/right]

Eminent domain! Like how they got the right to tear down a whole block of houses to make way for a new Rite-Aid that nobody but Rite-Aid really wanted!

[jahcs]

Public domain!  Like how they got the right to tear down a whole block of houses to make way for a new Rite-Aid that nobody but Rite-Aid really wanted!
[right][snapback]89473[/snapback][/right]

I believe eminent domain is the term for that situation. ;)

---

The 2nd Amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The 4th Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

New Orleans Police Superintendent on confiscation of firearms:
No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass III, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
But that order apparently does not apply to hundreds of security guards hired by businesses and some wealthy individuals to protect property. The guards, employees of private security companies like Blackwater, openly carry M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said that he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.

One reason given in the New York Times for the seizure:
New Orleans police officers begin confiscating weapons from civilians in preparation for forced evacuation of last holdouts...
NY Times September 9, 2005

Do the local and state declarations of emergency allow the suspension of civil liberties, most notably the 2nd Amendment and the 4th Amendment? The Mayor of New Orleans and the Police Superintendent think so. A Louisiana state statute allows the chief law enforcement officer to "regulate possession" of firearms during declared emergencies. Take the guns away from the crooks and then take the crooks away. Leave the law abiding citizens alone!

The words of some of our Founding Fathers fit nicely here:

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, June, 1776

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book, 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves . . . and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms... The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle." --Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788

"Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." --Tench Coxe, Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

"[A]rms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves." --Thomas Paine, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775
Doesn't Wilkipedia Rock! B)

Laurence Tribe, American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 (2000): "Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist / republican / federalism one: Its central object is to arm 'We the People' so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state.
From a UCLA paper on the 2nd Amendment

The seizure of firearms was the wrong way to solve the problem, in my opinion. While looking for sources I came across several stories of neghborhoods banding together to protect their property, in essence, a local militia. The local authorities might have been able to coordinate with these groups and call upon others to form similar groups. It might have helped.

[Doc]

I believe eminent domain is the term for that situation. ;)

---

The 2nd Amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The 4th Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

New Orleans Police Superintendent on confiscation of firearms:
No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass III, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
But that order apparently does not apply to hundreds of security guards hired by businesses and some wealthy individuals to protect property. The guards, employees of private security companies like Blackwater, openly carry M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said that he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.

One reason given in the New York Times for the seizure:
New Orleans police officers begin confiscating weapons from civilians in preparation for forced evacuation of last holdouts...
NY Times September 9, 2005

Do the local and state declarations of emergency allow the suspension of civil liberties, most notably the 2nd Amendment and the 4th Amendment?  The Mayor of New Orleans and the Police Superintendent think so.  A Louisiana state statute allows the chief law enforcement officer to "regulate possession" of firearms during declared emergencies.  Take the guns away from the crooks and then take the crooks away.  Leave the law abiding citizens alone!

The words of some of our Founding Fathers fit nicely here:

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, June, 1776

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book, 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves . . . and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms... The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle." --Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788

"Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." --Tench Coxe, Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

"[A]rms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves." --Thomas Paine, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775
Doesn't Wilkipedia Rock! B)

Laurence Tribe, American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 (2000):  "Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist / republican / federalism one:  Its central object is to arm 'We the People' so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state.
From a UCLA paper on the 2nd Amendment

The seizure of firearms was the wrong way to solve the problem, in my opinion.  While looking for sources I came across several stories of neghborhoods banding together to protect their property, in essence, a local militia.  The local authorities might have been able to coordinate with these groups and call upon others to form similar groups.  It might have helped.
[right][snapback]89481[/snapback][/right]

And not one warrant was issued for the search and seizure of these weapons. They just busted in and started taking and searching the home and the person,

Mother#$%&ers. :angry:

[Occhidiangela]

And not one warrant was issued for the search and seizure of these weapons. They just busted in and started taking and searching the home and the person,

Mother#$%&ers. :angry:
[right][snapback]89482[/snapback][/right]

I sincerely hope that every citizen so abused files civil and criminal suits against the police chief, the governor, the local Guard Commander (who let his troops be subborned to carry out UNLAWFUL ORDERS) and anyone else in the chain of command above sergeant and ending at The White House.

Was there ever a declaration of Martial Law? Did I miss that news story?

Forced evictions were completely unnecessary. Disarming citizens defending their own homes was unconstitutional.

Doc, this message will be well spread. I worry for the National Guard and the police the next time there is a significant natural disaster. Plenty of citizens will go down shooting. The rest will merely show themselves to be sheep.

I will also predict that between now and Nov 2008, the only protection (other than the usual) Pres Bush has against some really angry citizen trying to do a Lee Harvey on him is the prospect of VP Cheney stepping in.

War in Iraq?

$5 billion per month

Rebuilding New Orleans

$200 billion over 5-10 years

Dollar's value after the printing presses stop making new money to 'cover these new debts?"

Worthless

Assassination insurance?

Priceless.



Pardon me while I vomit.

Occhi

[Doc]

I sincerely hope that every citizen so abused files civil and criminal suits against the police chief, the governor, the local Guard Commander (who let his troops be subborned to carry out UNLAWFUL ORDERS) and anyone else in the chain of command above sergeant and ending at The White House.

Was there ever a declaration of Martial Law?  Did I miss that news story?

Forced evictions were completely unnecessary.  Disarming citizens defending their own homes was unconstitutional.

Doc, this message will be well spread.  I worry for the National Guard and the police the next time there is a significant natural disaster.  Plenty of citizens will go down shooting.  The rest will merely show themselves to be sheep.

I will also predict that between now and Nov 2008, the only protection (other than the usual) Pres Bush has against some really angry citizen trying to do a Lee Harvey on him is the prospect of VP Cheney stepping in. 

War in Iraq?

$5 billion per month

Rebuilding New Orleans

$200 billion over 5-10 years

Dollar's value after the printing presses stop making new money to 'cover these new debts?"

Worthless

Assassination insurance?

Priceless.
Pardon me while I vomit.

Occhi
[right][snapback]89495[/snapback][/right]

I am livid. Blinded with rage.

I have not been this angry since I don't know when. I have seen some awful things in my life, and been there when some pretty bad stuff went down. And I have felt a lot of outrage in my life.

But this, this tops all. This is vile. Black. This is a horrible crime.

No warrants? Illegal search and seizure of weapons? Citizens killed and labeled as criminals because they defended themselves.

This is tyranny. In the classical sense of the word.

I have never been more ashamed of my country. Never. I fear this is breaking my spirit. Everybody that knows me knows how vocal I am about guns and civil rights. This, hell, this took all of the wind out of my sails. This is not the country I grew up in.

Sorry, but this has taken a toll on me in ways I can not explain.

[jahcs]

Some national organizations are starting to fight these events in the courts. I have seen related stories on other sites too (NRA.org, etc.)

Suit Filed to Halt New Orleans Gun Seizures - at Newsmax.com

Suit Filed to Halt New Orleans Gun Seizures

The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) and National Rifle Association (NRA) joined with individual gun owners in Louisiana Thursday morning, filing a motion in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana seeking a temporary restraining order to stop authorities in and around the City of New Orleans from seizing firearms from private citizens in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.


Arbitrary gun seizures, without warrant or probable cause, have been reported during the past three weeks since the Crescent City was devastated by the hurricane. In cases reported to SAF, police refused to give citizens receipts for their seized firearms. Earlier, SAF insisted that police account for all seized firearms, disclose their whereabouts, and explain how they will be returned to their rightful owners. Authorities have not responded.

The article continues for a few more paragraphs. Hopefully this type of thing is never allowed to happen again.

[Doc]

I hope that some of those officers died painfully during the seizure of those weapons.

[WarLocke]

Income taxes.
-A
[right][snapback]89446[/snapback][/right]

Don't forget vehicle "insurance" :angry: