Ill Considered Policies in Action

[jahcs]

Especially the pressure to accept basically *any* job, even at sub-average or below-tariff pay, and way below one's qualification could lead huge parts of the populace into social decline. But not into brothels in large numbers I guess  :shuriken:
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Ah, one of my 2 favorite economic terms, Underemployment.

The second is Efficiency of Scale, followed closely by The Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility

[Nystul]

Thanks for the scoop, Armin. From the American perspective, your new laws still sound far more generous to the unemployed than what we have here. So looking through this straw, it seems funny that an able-bodied person could have 12 months to find a job and still complain about not getting full compensation after that. But since people were getting this money before and now have it taken away, it's easy to see why it would be controversial.

When Bill Cosby give college graduation speeches, he gets serious about telling the graduates to find a job. He tells them that if they need to take a job flipping burgers, they can do that and look for a job in their major at the same time. For single parents it is more complicated, but for the rest of us there aren't many excuses.

[Armin]

The problem here is, no amount of pressure can force people into non-existing jobs.

I myself was searching for 10 full months and my chances should in theory be better than most people's...

I have excellent grades throughout my record. My Grade from German "Abitur" (equivalent to Americal college diploma) was a straight 1.0, (that's a clean A for you Americans ;), my Biology Diploma a 1.2. I finished a PhD thesis in experimental cancer research with "magna cum laude" and had worked for 3 years in one of the world's leading tissue engineering companies.

What help is that, when you apply for a Job in a town called "Hechingen" (small hamlet at the end of nowhere :P ) and you still have 102 competitors?
When applying here in Freiburg, I had 363 competitors for one bloody position.

I finally found something 2 months before time was up (the whole biotechnology business is undergoing a crisis...) by sheer... no, not luck. By knowing someone who worked at my old company, who knew someone else at the new company and heard that someone there was pregnant :wacko:

Oh, and I'm 36. Try finding a job in Germany when you're over 45 and you know what people talk about. It's plain impossible.

At the same time we have 5 million (actually, realistically 6.5 million) people unemployed, there are now 850.000 millionaires in Germany. More than ever before.

The average industry worker, who produced a value of 136.000€ in 1982 produced an average value of 300.000€ in 2004 and - guess - earned less and paid higher fees and taxes.

We are, sadly, catching up rapidly with the US when the size of the gap between the poor and the rich is concerned. And it's not as if there's less money to go around than 30 years ago - when we could easily afford our social secutrity system. German economy has never ceased to grow. The wealth has just become much less evenly spread.

Large companies increase profits by increasing productivity, then firing people. With the fear of unemployment they blackmail those who remain into accepting worse and worse terms and working overtime. Then they weasel out of most of their taxes, and keep complaining about the high price of work in Germany (and the mein reason it's so high is the costs of the unemployment THEY created and the high tax pressure on the average citizen - as they have to cover for the companies who pay less and less)

So the whole system creates huge profits for a few winners but doesn't work as a whole. And the way out is to punish the losers harder ?

[Occhidiangela]

The problem here is, no amount of pressure can force people into non-existing jobs.
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Boy, isn't that the truth!

In any case, thanks for the sanity check and clarification.

Occhi

[Armin]

One more thing:

When Bill Cosby give college graduation speeches, he gets serious about telling the graduates to find a job.  He tells them that if they need to take a job flipping burgers, they can do that and look for a job in their major at the same time.  For single parents it is more complicated, but for the rest of us there aren't many excuses.
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First of all, I pretty much doubt that Bill Cosby (IIRC one of the richest Entertainers in the world) has ever flipped burgers. Or remembers flipping them as a young actor looking for work 40 years ago. But what might work for an actor I'd challenge anyone to try:

Apply for a job in *any* qualified field of work out of your job at McD. Then compete with 100 other applicants. 20 of those or more will not say "currently, I have a lot of experience flipping burgers" Calculate your chances to be the one they pick...

Just what the world needs... obscenely rich jerks giving unsolicited and bloody useless advice to people :P

[ShadowHM]

EDITED:

I see the ban on prostitution as being part of the safety net, itself.  Obviously, any workplace regulation won't apply if your employer chooses to ignore it, and never gets prosecuted.


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After a good night's sleep, I think this post needed editing to get rid of the inflammatory wording. :rolleyes:

Bearing in mind that prostitution can be a free-lance effort as well as under the direction of an employer (like most fee-for-service operations e.g. plumbers, electricians, lawn care), could you explain how a ban on prostitution is part of a safety net?

[Nystul]

First of all, I pretty much doubt that Bill Cosby (IIRC one of the richest Entertainers in the world) has ever flipped burgers. Or remembers flipping them as a young actor looking for work 40 years ago.
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Bill Cosby was a high school dropout from the projects, and this was before the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing. I doubt he has forgotten. By the time he had his big break in comedy, his work ethic had gotten him a lot further than most people from that type of background.

Some people are fortunate enough to have rich parents they can live off of until age 30. For the rest of us in the United States, getting a job isn't so much an optional thing. I have a friend with a computer science degree who has a wife and kids and was working two jobs: sales clerk at Best Buy, and loading freight into semis at UPS. They may not be the best resume builders, but they won't hurt. And in the meantime, he actually has an address and phone number to put on his applications, instead of "homeless and unemployed". The thing is, some of the blue collar jobs are hiring as many people as they can get every week, good economy or bad (of course the people quit every week too, but the opportunity is there). If everyone who settled for those jobs was sitting at home waiting for their 1 in 100 interview in their dream job, the industrial economy here would not be doing too well. Maybe in Europe it's a different ballgame.

[Minionman]

I see the ban on prostitution as being part of the safety net, itself.  Obviously, any workplace regulation won't apply if your employer chooses to ignore it, and never gets prosecuted.
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I'm guessing your opinion is that prostitution bans are safety nets because by making it illegal, less people are allowed to go into prostitution so it protects them from possible problems it might cause. If it's something else, explain.

Problem is, that doesn't seem to work well as a safety net, it seems ot do the opposite. Other suggestions for dealing with prostitution seem to work better in general. So allowing prostitution and putting some protection laws to it isn't actually causing any possible set-ups for less worker protection, it's a set-up for better laws elsewhere.

[Occhidiangela]

Bill Cosby was a high school dropout from the projects, and this was before the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing. I doubt he has forgotten.  By the time he had his big break in comedy, his work ethic had gotten him a lot further than most people from that type of background.

Some people are fortunate enough to have rich parents they can live off of until age 30.   For the rest of us in the United States, getting a job isn't so much an optional thing.  I have a friend with a computer science degree who has a wife and kids and was working two jobs: sales clerk at Best Buy, and loading freight into semis at UPS.  They may not be the best resume builders, but they won't hurt.  And in the meantime, he actually has an address and phone number to put on his applications, instead of "homeless and unemployed".  The thing is, some of the blue collar jobs are hiring as many people as they can get every week, good economy or bad (of course the people quit every week too, but the opportunity is there).  If everyone who settled for those jobs was sitting at home waiting for their 1 in 100 interview in their dream job, the industrial economy here would not be doing too well.  Maybe in Europe it's a different ballgame.
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Bill Cosby attended Temple University.

EDIT. I stand corrected, I thought he was a graduate.

Cosby left high school without earning his diploma and joined the U.S. Navy in 1956. While enlisted he passed a high school equivalency exam, and after his discharge he received an athletic scholarship to Temple University in Philadelphia in 1961. During his sophomore year he left Temple to entertain at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village, New York City, where he began to establish a trademark comedic style characterized by a friendly and accessible stage persona and a relaxed, carefully timed delivery

IIRC, Mr Cosby was a corpsman. Being a sailor in the 50's entailed considerable manual labor, even moreso than it does today. He made his money the old fashioned way: he earned it. Then, instead of blowing it through his nose on drugs, he started a family, stayed married, and kept making more money than he spent. I bet he invested wisely as well.

Anyone begrudging him his riches -- he found a style of comedy that struck a sympathetic chord with many audiences -- strikes me as mean spirited and jealous.

Occhi

[whyBish]

So looking through this straw, it seems funny that an able-bodied person could have 12 months to find a job and still complain about not getting full compensation after that. 

They should shift to NZ. We have people that are third generation beneficiaries. (No this is not an exaggeration). <_<

[Roland]

Wow. Just... wow. I don't know how I screwed that one up. I went back and reread it and, sure enough, it says "under" clear as day. And just yesterday I could have SWORN it said over (which, truthfully, didn't make much sense to me anyway). Thanks for the clarification.

On a sidenote, while I'm still skeptical the whole "sometimes you just can't find a job" line, I'll admit that the evidence layed out has broadened my opinions a bit more than originally. Just makes me all the more thankful that I never want to have anything to do with Germany, ever. Including their cars. ;)

[DeeBye]

Just makes me all the more thankful that I never want to have anything to do with Germany, ever. Including their cars. ;)
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My 1981 VW Rabbit lasted me a good long time. It had 400,000 miles on it when I decided to sell it. I sold it for $500.

[Armin]

Anyone begrudging him his riches -- he found a style of comedy that struck a sympathetic chord with many audiences -- strikes me as mean spirited and jealous.
Occhi
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Sorry if that was the impression raised. The point is not begrudging anything it's just the question, what in hell makes a person that has been a millionaire for 3 decades, and thus been out of the job interview business for at least that long think he's qualified to pass on useful career advice?

And no, Nystul. The 1 in a 100 is NOT the chance for your dream job at just the right place. Around here, the way the game goes, 1 in a 100 is just the plain average chance for your average job in a *halfway* fitting line of work at your average company, at some SUBaverage town in the hinterlands.
Dream jobs in big cities we're talking 1 in 300 and up, and then a resume of flipping burgers, waiting tables or filling boxes doesn't only not help, it kills.

[Occhidiangela]

Sorry if that was the impression raised. The point is not begrudging anything it's just the question, what in hell makes a person that has been a millionaire for 3 decades, and thus been out of the job interview business for at least that long think he's qualified to pass on useful career advice?

And no, Nystul. The 1 in a 100 is NOT the chance for your dream job at just the right place. Around here, the way the game goes, 1 in a 100 is just the plain average chance for your average job in a *halfway* fitting line of work at your average company, at some SUBaverage town in the hinterlands.
Dream jobs in big cities we're talking 1 in 300 and up, and then a resume of flipping burgers, waiting tables or filling boxes doesn't only not help, it kills.
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Good point on contemporary job market issues. One's experience is a perishable commodity at times.

In the 1970's, in America, the legions of underemployed college graduates, to include doctorate and masters holders, was a byword. The "PhD waiter in New York" or "the mechanic with a masters degree" was not as rare as one might think. However, when "everyone can get a bachelors degree," the degree itself holds less value than when it was rare.

I guess it goes in cycles. Or, it used to. Seems the cycles are losing air in their tires these days.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Good point on contemporary job market issues.&nbsp; One's experience is a perishable commodity at times.&nbsp;

In the 1970's, in America, the legions of underemployed college graduates, to include doctorate and masters holders, was a byword.&nbsp; The "PhD waiter in New York" or "the mechanic with a masters degree" was not as rare as one might think.&nbsp; However, when "everyone can get a bachelors degree," the degree itself holds less value than when it was rare.

I guess it goes in cycles.&nbsp; Or, it used to.&nbsp; Seems the cycles are losing air in their tires these days.

Occhi
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Many of my college mates are underemployed. They pursued education in areas that were in decline or glutted with talent. The ones that retrained themselves with additonal schooling did better, and this time paid attention to market demand. For instance, one guy I know has a masters degree in computer science but was struggling to find interesting work, so he went back to university and aquired a Phd in molecular biology and now works as a bioinformaticist and is in high demand.

[Roland]

My 1981 VW Rabbit lasted me a good long time.&nbsp; It had 400,000 miles on it when I decided to sell it.&nbsp; I sold it for $500.
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I'm a Saab man myself. ;) Both that I have owned (on my second one) have well over 200,000 miles on them (each). High-maintanance, but well worth the dough (and I get virtually free repairs - family business). And you can't beat the saftey and handling. Especially in New England winter. ;)

[Nystul]

EDITED:
After a good night's sleep, I think this post needed editing to get rid of the inflammatory wording.&nbsp; :rolleyes:

Bearing in mind that prostitution can be a free-lance effort as well as under the direction of an employer (like most fee-for-service operations&nbsp; e.g.&nbsp; plumbers, electricians, lawn care), could you explain how a ban on prostitution is part of a safety net?
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Considering where we started this, self-employment is really outside of the scope of this thread. I realize that a serious discussion on the merits and folley of legalizing prostitution would need to take into consideration a large number of factors, including this scope, and the feasibility of successfully enforcing the current laws, and the relative merits of regulated prostitution. However, I am not really interested in having a serious discussion on the merits of legalizing prostitution. I was just making an off-the-cuff, sarcastic comment about the bizarre realities of job regulations.

You are probably more open-minded about the concept of prostitution in general than I am, and therefor don't find any humor in the fact that in some places you could accept a job selling sexual services for $100 an hour but can't accept a job selling shoes for $3 an hour, and make $100 an hour riding a dozer without a hardhat on. To me it is a source of wry amusement, like the hair drier that says "Warning: do not use in shower."

[ShadowHM]

I was just making an off-the-cuff, sarcastic comment about the bizarre realities of job regulations.

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Sarcasm is not easy to detect in the written word. :)

And, as we have agreed before, any and all attempts to create legislation to cover all bases are bound to make for some interesting and odd crevices.

[jahcs]

And, as we have agreed before, any and all attempts to create legislation to cover all bases are bound to make for some interesting and odd crevices.
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*Gives ShadowHM the benefit of the doubt on whether that double pun was intended. :whistling:

edit: Saw the secondary pun. Reminds me of a candy bar thread around here somewhere...

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Just makes me all the more thankful that I never want to have anything to do with Germany, ever.

Funny. For me, it's just the other way around: All this makes me even more curious about the US, and I hope I'll be able to visit your country sometimes soon.
But to each his own, I guess.

-Kylearan